Fact checking on ship stats

[jinks67]

If some one with experience could check on some of my assumptions regarding how the ship stats are used in the game that would be great and probably save me a lot of time.

I'm working with UDM



In this snapshot what I'm doing is trying to break down the various ship stats into a couple of numbers that are more easily readable on the fly. This is a test calculation simply to get the formulas working as expected.

In order to have some means of measuring ships strengths at a glance I'm attempting to create a couple variables for my own use. I want to use them to simplify an overall process of creating the kind of ship balance I'm looking for. The variables I'm trying to come up with are a loose measurement of a ships total offensive output and defence (or Endurance) capability in a certain combat scenario... (something like equal crew experience at a given distance with a specified target)

I could create a baseline of stats for any given ship type (example a Scout II) in this way. I could then use that baseline for each race as a starting point that has parity. I could add bonuses and penalties for each race separately to manipulate the balance. By doing it in this manner I'm hoping to make adjustments easier later.

Forgive me if my abbreviations are confusing but... If:
B.#.t = (Total beams)
B.dmg = (Beam damage)
Would it make sense that B.#.t x B.dmg = B.O.raw
if B.O.raw = a measurement of the total potential beam damage output? (Before other factors are applied)

In a scenario where ship distance was 1000 units (Is it meters?) and the target ship had a Defense rating of 100
If:
B.acc (Beam accuracy)
B.%.hit (Beam % chance to hit)
Then B.%.hit = (B.acc - 100 - (0.01 * 1000)) Right?

Does it make sense that a theoretical measurement of a ships damage output at a the given distance against a the given target could be called B.O.t (Beam damage Output Total)

If B.O.t = (B.O.raw * (B.%.hit * .01))

eg scenario... If Beam Accuracy = 180, number of beams 10, beam damage 30, distance 1000, against a target of 100 defence then...
B.O.t=((10*300)*(180-100-(0.01*100)*0.01))
B.O.t=210


I understand that there are other factors at play, crew experience, manoeuvres chosen in the combat screen and some element of chance. However...

Am I correct that 210 is roughly how much damage this particular ship should be expected to do in the specified scenario?
Am I correct in the fact agility plays no part in this?
Am I correct that the sum of B.O.t and a T.O.t (Same calculations for torpedo's) should give a general idea of how much total damage (O.O.t) should be done at the given distance and target?
Am I correct that the total number would be applied directly to reducing a targets shield total (and then hull) each turn? (forgetting changes in distance or other things like ramming)

If that's roughly correct then the sum of a ships Hull and Shields divided by the O.O.t of an attacking ship should give roughly an idea of how many turns that ship will last in the given scenario with the given attacker?



Wow, if anyone takes the time to answer all of that I'll be impressed. I'm not all that technical and my learning process has been slow regarding this game. Any help is much appreciated.

[thunderchero]

sorry no answer to all your questions here.

But the stats were done on a spreadsheet like this already for UDM.

with totals for

Damage Potential full volley
Ship Strength Total Value
Defense Ability
beam damage and volley
torpedo damage and volley

all stats were computed using a bonus modifiers for

biotech
computers
construction
energy
propulsion
weapons

also used was tech level when buildable ect.

all this used a base ship value for each type of ship.

all the computations gave ship speed, cost, maintenance, damage, agility, defense (every stat possible and some that were not even part of game stats) if you change 1 value all values would automatically update.

thunderchero

[gentle]

I just had to post some sort of reply to this subject because i think its related to one of the biggest problem of my life So, on top of eradicate Africa`s hunger, world peace, eliminating the gap between rich and poor and go back in time in the 90`s and engage in a "menage aux trois" with Sharon Stone and Winona Ryder there is the fact that 9 destroyers should always defeat a command cruiser in combat. From all the numbers and formulas you posted, i like numbers and formulas because i am an engineer, the brutal truth is appearing, the sad fact that 9 destroyers cannot destroy a CC in a combat. Is it because of the initial combat range in a fight. Is it because of agility, defense, weapon power of the ships? Is it just because in the first turn seems like the destroyers cannot do any damage to the CC? Is it just God will? Thousands of specialists worldwide try to solve this mystery. Just think about the poor souls serving on those destroyers. The emptiness of their lives, going to work everyday knowing that your work is pointless, the shame they must endure when someone is bulling them: "So.. you are from a destroyer eh? What do you destroy because i heard that even TT`s and colony ships are to much for you? You destroy the silence and emptiness of space while you are retreating?" Mathematicians all over the world struggle to answer the questions: "Why, if the weapon power compute for 9 destroyers is more than triple then that of a CC, the destroyers don't manage to kill it?; Why, if the cost of 9 destroyers is more than triple of a CC cost, destroyers are still useless?" I think this will be another problem that we will leave behind for future generation! But i will never leave you behind brave destroyers, i will always build a few of you just to keep you as silent and useless witnesses of future battles.

[adi]

the sad fact that 9 destroyers cannot destroy a CC in a combat

Sure they can; but they need wep range and accuracy; so if they are 2 techs back... Remember the Defiant from from Vanilla?

[jinks67]

Just think about the poor souls serving on those destroyers. The emptiness of their lives, going to work everyday knowing that your work is pointless, the shame they must endure when someone is bulling them: "So.. you are from a destroyer eh?

LOL!

That irritates me as well, they basically become cannon fodder around mid game. I'm trying to reduce fleet sizes a little bit and rebalance how the ships are used. If it works the way I'm hoping light cruisers and destroyers will still be worth something later in the game but for different reasons.

Something along the lines of...
Reducing the number of Command Cruisers to sane levels by increasing their maintenance cost. Make it worth it to have some I.e. the only ships that have full range/top speed/best scan all in one ship. Give them an average offence but a very tough defence but not the best choice for the main ship used by any fleet given the cost.

Changing the nature of the rest of the "Cruisers" in a few ways. Extend the service life of regular or light cruisers to be still functional and effective near the end of the game and not having heavy cruisers be a direct replacement. Light cruisers would be short range only and the cheapest to maintain throughout tech levels. Basically a purpose built ship of the line for defending home turf with no scan ability and medium speed. Heavy cruisers would pack a little more punch but not too much over a regular. Their benefit would be in an extended range (perhaps medium initially and then long as tech goes by). A little more of an offensive weapon, a little more costly as far as firepower/cost ratio than the short range cruisers.

Increasing the value of Destroyers by making them harder to hit and beefing them up a bit. Similarly to regular cruisers they stay short range and defensive but with the best speed. A true interceptor. Heavy destroyers would fall in line with the heavy cruisers, pack a little more punch, cost more, and be capable of medium range. Beef Destroyers up a bit so maybe 3 destroyers could hang with a cruiser, 4 with a heavy cruiser. 3 Heavy destroyers hang with 1 heavy cruiser and maybe 6 take down a Command Cruiser.

Something like that. I don't know if it will work. I think maybe the largest ships should have the lowest defence rating and the smaller ships higher. Seems counter institutive but that rating seems to directly translate into how hard is it to hit, not how tough it is. Perhaps in this way small ships would hold their value by surviving much longer in a battle. Be interesting to play with the numbers.

I'm not sure how the AI will react to such changes but perhaps a simple re-order of their ship building schedule would work well enough.

[gentle]

the sad fact that 9 destroyers cannot destroy a CC in a combat

Sure they can; but they need wep range and accuracy; so if they are 2 techs back... Remember the Defiant from from Vanilla?

I am sorry but the destroyers are useless in UDM mod. you may start at any tech and try it. 9 Destroyers2 will not kill a CC1, same for dest3 vs a CC2; 9heavy dest1 vs one CC3 or 9 heavy dest2 vs 1 CC4(i did not try this but i am sure is the same). Wat is very annoying is that the first turn of a fight the destroyers dont manage to make any amount of dmg to the command ship. Its a waste of options and strategy for the game in my opinion, and the mp games are resuming to mass CC fights. And even if for kling and rom destroyers you may give them a kind of purpose due to clock, for the other races is totally inefficient to build them(to much time/credits consuming and no effect) This is only for UDM mod(this is what i play) in vanilla i remember that the destroyers do their job well.

[adi]

I have not played the original UDM in a long time so i can't be 100% sure of that; I am playing UDM with many changes of mine into it; and i still use destroyers. and they do their job. So my advice stands; give then wep range and accuracy similar to the cruisers and they will take them down. As a rule of thumb my destroyers have about 1/3 of the hull+shield and about 1/2 firepower of the contemporary CC. You can these changes easily with UE:
Here is the feds example:

oops that came out small ; but you can still see it ... a bit
there we go, fixed now
just look at a destroyer and the CC around the same tech levels; just ignore the dreadnoughts; they are "special"

[jinks67]

As a rule of thumb my destroyers have about 1/3 of the hull+shield and about 1/2 firepower of the contemporary CC. You can these changes easily with UE:
Here is the feds example:

Very nice spreadsheet very easy to understand. Did you create it?

Do you find that 1/3 hull/shield compared to another ship works out roughly as expected for you?

I'm working on a similar spreadsheet but still in the stage of laying it out. Experimenting with what math I can and can't do in this way. It's made me aware that there are more fields I should be working with if I hope to be able to "predict" with any reasonable accuracy how the ships actually stack up.

Chance to hit is simple enough but how many times per combat turn is it applied? I.E. if there are 5 beams does the game attempt to calculate a hit or miss 5 times per turn? I don't know certain things. If you know please share

[adi]

This spreadsheet is part of the tool i gave you as a link a couple of days ago (i think it was in udm thread); the one you could not get from 4shared.com
http://www.4shared.com/file/dtli548x/Sh ... or_11.html hope it helps you.
Trying to predict how much damage will be done is not that important; especially when you have 100 ships in the battle; but i have noticed that if the ships have experience it is so much more important. A legendary ship is so much better than a green one.

[thunderchero]

these posts might answer some of your questions

Crew Experience
Damage Control
Intercept percentage
Stealth and Cloak
Hit Probability / tevent.txt
shield level & penetration

thunderchero

[jinks67]

Thx Thunderchero, looks like I should enable cheats and F11 to enable this tevent.txt.

adi: Even if I click where suggested it wants me to create account before allowing the download. I'll try the sign up but if it sends me an installer again, boooo. Could e-mail it. Not sure if this board permits sending e-mails to users.

-Scratch that, just got it. Thank you.

[jinks67]

Now you just need that ship list importer

[adi]

Now you just need that ship list importer

I have been crying for that to the guys here that do java; 'cause i don't; without that you have to do the stats by hand, and there are more than 2000 of them; last time it took me a 3-4 days a few hours a day.

[jinks67]

Had a little time to blow tonight on checking into the tevent.txt file..

Upon examinating any given entry such as this:

Code: Select all

USS Iwo Jima fires beam on DSS 023A-00020 at range: 2882.98
DSS 023A-00020: HP: 1070/1070 Shield: Strength: 1000/1000 Lev: 0 Replenish: 150
USS Iwo Jima: HP: 970/970 Shield: Strength: 1620/1620 Lev: 0 Replenish: 162
MaxRange: 1800.00 attLev: 200 attNum: 14 attMul: 1 attStr: 30
Shield Penetration: 0 rateOfFire: 18724	numFired: 14
Target Defense Level: 118
Hit probability: 53.0%

I see that this formula from Gowron does apply as expected:
[Hit Probability in percent] = ATK - DEF - ( 0.01 * [distance between attacker and target] )
Where 200-118 - (0.01 * 2889.98) = 53%

This works on any given entry which is great, however as noted by others the hit probability number appears to be only part of another equation on whether or not a hit will actually occur.

On one test run I accidentally increased a Dominion CC shield rating to a ridiculous number. As my test subject I meant to reduce the shields from 1000 to 900 but typo'd the value to 1000900

The test battle didn't go very well... however the entries in tevent.txt were interesting. After scrolling through pages of countless entries of a Federation CC firing at 75% hit probability I counted only 2 hits. The targets shield strength or some combination of variables including shield strength seemed to play a part in the actual chance to hit. Since the distance was closed to well within range at that point I'm not sure what else it could have been.

Calling it a night but want to investigate some of these things tomorrow.

[jinks67]

There should be a way to parse those files and take the data to figure out what affects when a hit actually occurs.... Perhaps capture data from a battle with only two ship types and then compare it against data from one of those types vs a 3rd control ship. Any ideas are welcome.