MS3D Problem... Still/Again

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Post by jetnova16 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:56 pm

MrVulcan wrote:I tried running 3dsmax 5 on Vista, and encountered the same cdilla error.

Maybe you can try running it through virtual win xp.
I don't have a virtual Windows XP and don't plan on ever setting one up. Vista has worked with other programs for me that I have been told wouldn't work. I'll try it first.

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Post by MrVulcan » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:55 pm

If you get it working, please do tell us what you did. I really should be moving out of XP, as good as I think it still is. The only think that's stopping me atm is that I wouldn't be able to run 3ds max 5. lol

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Post by jetnova16 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:09 pm

MrVulcan wrote:If you get it working, please do tell us what you did. I really should be moving out of XP, as good as I think it still is. The only think that's stopping me atm is that I wouldn't be able to run 3ds max 5. lol
I only installed it last night (early Tuesday morning) on to my external hard drive. I did have a problem having IE9 and not IE6 but I got around that on a second time.

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Post by jetnova16 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:24 pm

I am having a 2 issues when trying to use 3ds max 5. The .ZIP file download link below has 2 screen shots in it. One for each error message that pops up. I haven't even been able to get into the program yet, these messages appear on top of the loading screen.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4EBW892U

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Post by MajorPayne » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:35 pm

OKay so to ellaborate. CDILLA, is a set of copy protection DLL files and a single DAT file that 3d max 5 and lower versions uses to insert, read and verify a correct licence that the user would usually receive from Autodesk. If this licence doesn't exist or is damaged so it can't be read correctly it throws up the second error (this is usually a simple matter of uninstallation and reinstallation). The first error though, is the one that will cause you the most problem. When I installed a legit version of windows 7 on my original PC I searched for several days to find some sort of answer and whilst there was a few "possible" solutions, none was forthcoming. Thats why I reverted to windows xp on my new pc.

Okay so you might have thought that because your using Vista and its mainly built on Windows XP, win2000 and its many new elements that 3dmax 5 should work, but this isn't the case. I think its down, primarily, to the version of direct x that 3dmax 5 needs and the version that is default to Vista.

There is one of two possible ways around it:

1) Obtain a version of xp for your pc and that will solve the problem of both errors straight off. Although you will lose the usage of an OS your used to, my personal feeling is that Vista is one big pile of shoot anyway. I've dealt with several PC's that have had it installed (including my daughter laptop) and I've hated the OS ever since (and god willing, I'll never have to deal with another pc with it installed on).

2) Find yourself a version of windows 7 professional and use that but also install the virtual windows xp. Now I've used windows 7 on many occasions and quite frankly I would love to have 3dmax 5 working on it correctly without the need to install anything else (bare in mind the original copy I have is the home edition). To my personal way of thinking windows 7 is far superior to almost anything else that microsoft has released but remember its not cheap and a bit of a resource hog (although no where near as much as Vista is). As for the virtual winxp I've never tried it myself, but if it supports, IIRC, direct x6 then it should work, but alas. I've not had the chance to check this is true.

Unless some boffin has made and released a virtual winxp setup for Vista you may be totally out of luck of finding any other solution. However, don't get rid of that copy of max5 yet though. If you happen across an older pc that has xp or win98 then it'll work without any problems.


** Quick edit **

I've just done a search for virtual xp mode and this is whats been turned up:

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/11060/cr ... and-vista/
http://lifehacker.com/238071/geek-to-li ... virtual-pc
http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/OS- ... l-PC.shtml
http://www.intowindows.com/get-windows- ... e-xp-mode/

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Post by jetnova16 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:28 pm

MajorPayne wrote:OKay so to ellaborate. CDILLA, is a set of copy protection DLL files and a single DAT file that 3d max 5 and lower versions uses to insert, read and verify a correct licence that the user would usually receive from Autodesk. If this licence doesn't exist or is damaged so it can't be read correctly it throws up the second error (this is usually a simple matter of uninstallation and reinstallation). The first error though, is the one that will cause you the most problem. When I installed a legit version of windows 7 on my original PC I searched for several days to find some sort of answer and whilst there was a few "possible" solutions, none was forthcoming. Thats why I reverted to windows xp on my new pc.

Okay so you might have thought that because your using Vista and its mainly built on Windows XP, win2000 and its many new elements that 3dmax 5 should work, but this isn't the case. I think its down, primarily, to the version of direct x that 3dmax 5 needs and the version that is default to Vista.

There is one of two possible ways around it:

1) Obtain a version of xp for your pc and that will solve the problem of both errors straight off. Although you will lose the usage of an OS your used to, my personal feeling is that Vista is one big pile of shoot anyway. I've dealt with several PC's that have had it installed (including my daughter laptop) and I've hated the OS ever since (and god willing, I'll never have to deal with another pc with it installed on).

2) Find yourself a version of windows 7 professional and use that but also install the virtual windows xp. Now I've used windows 7 on many occasions and quite frankly I would love to have 3dmax 5 working on it correctly without the need to install anything else (bare in mind the original copy I have is the home edition). To my personal way of thinking windows 7 is far superior to almost anything else that microsoft has released but remember its not cheap and a bit of a resource hog (although no where near as much as Vista is). As for the virtual winxp I've never tried it myself, but if it supports, IIRC, direct x6 then it should work, but alas. I've not had the chance to check this is true.

Unless some boffin has made and released a virtual winxp setup for Vista you may be totally out of luck of finding any other solution. However, don't get rid of that copy of max5 yet though. If you happen across an older pc that has xp or win98 then it'll work without any problems.


** Quick edit **

I've just done a search for virtual xp mode and this is whats been turned up:

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/11060/cr ... and-vista/
http://lifehacker.com/238071/geek-to-li ... virtual-pc
http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/OS- ... l-PC.shtml
http://www.intowindows.com/get-windows- ... e-xp-mode/
I don't know if I could try that, I don't have any access to a Windows XP installation disc, my old XP computer had it pre-installed and then that was upgraded to Vista which I personally found easier to use. My Toshiba came with Windows Vista Pre-Installed.

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Post by jetnova16 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:04 pm

Is there another option to getting 3ds max 5 to work on Windows Vista without a Virtual PC? Or is it possible to create a Virtual Windows XP without having the discs. All the downloads that I got for attempting to create one weren't working right or ended up not even being the right thing.

*******************************************************
Another question....

Could my SOD Exporter for MS3D be faulty? I know I got it here but is it possible that the download was corrupt when I got it?

I am asking this because, yesterday (Saturday) I downloaded this ship at this link: http://armada2.filefront.com/file/Kling ... ser;100168.

(I also added one extra hardpoint to the already completed model) I saved two versions of the MS3D file, the original unaltered/completed file that just needed exporting and also the one I added the hardpoint to, and both lost their hardpoints, and this time though I watched the text that appeared below during the export and the hardpoints were never added.

Given what I just described, does this mean that I have a faulty exporter? (Also if someone could help me to get the SOD file saved I would like that very much, but I like to get the one that I added the one extra hardpoint working, my created ODF file has a Pulse Phaser on the opposite side of the ship that had a hardpoint but the other was labled as "joint". The weapon is:

Code: Select all

// Disruptor Type 3
weapon6 = "ARkpulse3"
weaponHardpoints6 = "hp12" "hp18"

My additional hardpoint is 'hp18", I just came up with the number, it wasn't listed and might be out of numerical order, does that also matter?

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Post by MajorPayne » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:32 pm

Anything is possible, but I tell you what. Email me just your hardpointed MS3d file. Perhaps I can see where you are either going wrong or the exporter is going wrong. Don't worry about textures. Just the model file itself.

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Post by jetnova16 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:40 pm

MajorPayne wrote:Anything is possible, but I tell you what. Email me just your hardpointed MS3d file. Perhaps I can see where you are either going wrong or the exporter is going wrong. Don't worry about textures. Just the model file itself.
Ok, I'll do that.

Also, the textures in the mod came in the bmp format and weren't TGA, I had a mod like that before and put them in the textures folder in the game and had no problems with them (of course that was a model already in SOD format), why is that?

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Post by MajorPayne » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:10 pm

Okay so I'm going to take this one step at a time and try to explain it as easy as possible.

To begin with, it looks like you've renamed ALL your hardpoints correctly and your hierarchy looks right. However, IIRC from my tutorial there are no points marked as "joint". This could be causing the exporter to become confused and just "kill" any joints with that name. Your hardpoints main parent node should have the hp_ referenced nodes directly attached to it and resting on the hull or in the specific places you need them.

Secondly, the mesh itself. MS3d is memory specific. Now I've no idea what memory capacity your pc/laptop has but it can handle a certain amount of triangles (polys) per 512mb of system memory (IIRC between 512mb and 1gb you should be able to comfortably load a model with up to 65,535 polys and 65,535 vertices). However, this is where a problem lies. MOD files (standard SFC3 based model format), is usually as a single mesh grouping and although this one is split as per the textures (four mesh groupings should = four texture maps) its still 42048 polys which both armada games map have an epileptic fit over. Its a good bet that the mesh will also have truncated vertexes (those that are unwelded) which will need to be repaired (do this by selecting ALL mesh groupings, Click on the VERTEX drop down menu and select WELD TOGETHER. You may find a significant different in the amount of vertexes (do this by selecting TOOLS drop down menu and clicking on SHOW MODEL STATISTICS), and the model may change dramatically in the 3d viewing/manipulation window).

As for the textures. Sometimes it does work although I've not had this myself as I always pre-save EVERY texture to TGA beforehand. Its possible the original filesave may be in TGA and they were converted to BMP's for converting the model to MOD format.

Now if this was me using this model, I wouldn't use the original. Both Armada games work better with low poly models (under about 5k is usually most comfortable depending on what your hardware can handle), and Milkshape certainly likes low poly models as that was what it was originally designed to handle. Under the circumstances, and I'm speaking for personal experience, I would rebuild this model to be much lower in poly count. In Armada you can get just as good a looking model at 5000 polys as you can at 42,000 and the differences aren't overly telling. Think of that NX-Refit and what the original count was for that. Aside from the saucer and minor details that I altered theres not a massive difference between my rebuild and the original.

With regards to your node hierarchy. I suggest the following. In a fresh new file make a bone hierarchy only according to my tutorial and only the parent nodes (don't add such things as hardpoints, venting sprites or lighting). Link all these parent nodes together as the tutorial leaving a small gap between each so you can select them (make sure the primary parent node (h_scene_root) is in the middle where its supposed to be and facing the correct direction. Save this as a standard MS3d file, and then with each model just merge is with any model you load, and you won't have to rebuild it every time. I would, however, strongly suggest you try a test run of a very simple model of some kind. Make the primary parent node hierarchy and then export it without any of the additional hardpoints, lights and emitter sprites. If you've got it the model will be right.

Its been some time since I used MS3d to harpdoint a model and I've always used 3dmax myself. Its a hell of alot easier.


** Quick edit **
I just did a vertex weld on that model you sent me and the results were seriously messed up. Although the poly count doesn't change with the vertexes welded there was nearly 30,000 less on the model. Oh and I also forgot something very important:

VERTEX WELDED MODELS SHOULD ALWAYS WORK IN ARMADA CORRECTLY AND NOT BE BROKEN INTO SECTIONS!!

I know this seems like I'm shouting but its a good habit to get into. Weld those vertexes with EVERY model you load into milkshape BEFORE exporting.

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Post by jetnova16 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:42 pm

MajorPayne wrote:Okay so I'm going to take this one step at a time and try to explain it as easy as possible.

To begin with, it looks like you've renamed ALL your hardpoints correctly and your hierarchy looks right. However, IIRC from my tutorial there are no points marked as "joint". This could be causing the exporter to become confused and just "kill" any joints with that name. Your hardpoints main parent node should have the hp_ referenced nodes directly attached to it and resting on the hull or in the specific places you need them.

Secondly, the mesh itself. MS3d is memory specific. Now I've no idea what memory capacity your pc/laptop has but it can handle a certain amount of triangles (polys) per 512mb of system memory (IIRC between 512mb and 1gb you should be able to comfortably load a model with up to 65,535 polys and 65,535 vertices). However, this is where a problem lies. MOD files (standard SFC3 based model format), is usually as a single mesh grouping and although this one is split as per the textures (four mesh groupings should = four texture maps) its still 42048 polys which both armada games map have an epileptic fit over. Its a good bet that the mesh will also have truncated vertexes (those that are unwelded) which will need to be repaired (do this by selecting ALL mesh groupings, Click on the VERTEX drop down menu and select WELD TOGETHER. You may find a significant different in the amount of vertexes (do this by selecting TOOLS drop down menu and clicking on SHOW MODEL STATISTICS), and the model may change dramatically in the 3d viewing/manipulation window).

As for the textures. Sometimes it does work although I've not had this myself as I always pre-save EVERY texture to TGA beforehand. Its possible the original filesave may be in TGA and they were converted to BMP's for converting the model to MOD format.

Now if this was me using this model, I wouldn't use the original. Both Armada games work better with low poly models (under about 5k is usually most comfortable depending on what your hardware can handle), and Milkshape certainly likes low poly models as that was what it was originally designed to handle. Under the circumstances, and I'm speaking for personal experience, I would rebuild this model to be much lower in poly count. In Armada you can get just as good a looking model at 5000 polys as you can at 42,000 and the differences aren't overly telling. Think of that NX-Refit and what the original count was for that. Aside from the saucer and minor details that I altered theres not a massive difference between my rebuild and the original.

With regards to your node hierarchy. I suggest the following. In a fresh new file make a bone hierarchy only according to my tutorial and only the parent nodes (don't add such things as hardpoints, venting sprites or lighting). Link all these parent nodes together as the tutorial leaving a small gap between each so you can select them (make sure the primary parent node (h_scene_root) is in the middle where its supposed to be and facing the correct direction. Save this as a standard MS3d file, and then with each model just merge is with any model you load, and you won't have to rebuild it every time. I would, however, strongly suggest you try a test run of a very simple model of some kind. Make the primary parent node hierarchy and then export it without any of the additional hardpoints, lights and emitter sprites. If you've got it the model will be right.

Its been some time since I used MS3d to harpdoint a model and I've always used 3dmax myself. Its a hell of alot easier.


** Quick edit **
I just did a vertex weld on that model you sent me and the results were seriously messed up. Although the poly count doesn't change with the vertexes welded there was nearly 30,000 less on the model. Oh and I also forgot something very important:

VERTEX WELDED MODELS SHOULD ALWAYS WORK IN ARMADA CORRECTLY AND NOT BE BROKEN INTO SECTIONS!!

I know this seems like I'm shouting but its a good habit to get into. Weld those vertexes with EVERY model you load into milkshape BEFORE exporting.
Just a reminder, I never made that model or claim to. It belongs to MRJOHN, I only downloaded it. I did add one hardpoint as I mentioned, and also thought something looked off about it, but then again, the origianl file had ingame pictures with it.

*What you did say though can also help me out through.*

Here is the original read me file:

Code: Select all

CREDITS


Model -  MRJOHN
Textures - MRJOHN


------------------------------------mrjohn4227@hotmail.com



----------------------------------------------------http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/D%27ama_class

The D4 class battle cruiser was a type of warship designed and built by the Klingon Empire during the mid 22nd through mid 23rd centuries. The distinctive silhouette became as much a symbol of the Empire as the Imperial Trefoil itself, and was carried forward into the D6 and D7 classes.
[edit] History

The D4 class entered service in the 22nd century, and by the early 23rd century was the mainstay of the Klingon fleet, though it was eventually supplanted by the D5 class. (TOS novel: The Final Reflection)

Some D4s served into the 2260s; Starfleet included them in Klingon tactical simulations, where they fought alongside the later D7 class against Constitution class vessels. (ST reference: Ships of the Line)

    Due to cropping the D4 class does not actually appear in the image describing these events in the book, but was in the same image, "It Would Have Been Glorious!" by Robert Bonchune, in the original calendar publication. 

[edit] Known vessels

IKS Begh'poQ • IKV Blue Fire • IKS Chong'pogh • IKV Death Hand • IKS Deb'choS • IKS Duy'Hub • IKV Fencer • IKV Fury • IKS Gho'be' • IKS GhoH'Sot • IKS Hob'DIS • IKS Hurgh'ragh • IKS Luq'argh • IKS MajQa'be' • IKS NaS'puchpa' • IKS Nay'par • IKS PiqaD'nem • IKS Qugh'tung • IKS Qup'SoH • IKS Qut'Such • IKS TaD'moH • IKS TajHu • IKS Tar'be • IKV Two Fingers • IKS Wuv'a'tem
[edit] Background

The primary design this page refers to as D4 has so far only appeared in the 2006 Ships of the Line Calendar and Ships of the Line book. The design was created by Robert Bonchune, intended to be used in the Enterprise episode Unexpected, unfortunately as the production team had been over worked on the earliest Enterprise episodes they did not have time to make the model and a K't'inga class was used instead. Later appearances by the Klingons only featured specifically Enterprise era designs and Bonchune did eventually make a model of the D4, but it did not make an appearance on screen.

Before Enterprise even existed the D4 class had been referred to in the novel The Final Reflection where until the early 23rd century it made up most of the Klingon fleet, unlike in Enterprise the D5 class was not contemporaneous of the D4 but was a new 23rd century design which eventually supplanted the D4.

The game Legacy also features a D4 class, an Enterprise era vessel but not the Bonchune design, this type of D4 is also known as the Predator class in the game. 

----------------------------------------------------
COPYRIGHTS
__________________________________
THIS MODEL(S) IS NOT MADE, DISTRIBUTED, OR SUPPORTED BY Activision
TM & (C) INTERPLAY & PARAMOUNT PICTURES.

Star Trek, Bridge Commander, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: The Next
generation, Star Trek: Voyager (and various logo devices used in them) are
copyright Paramount Pictures, as are the characters, related images, and sounds
from the productions.
Edit/Addition:

I could send you a full .ZIP file of the ship and everything, including the textures if you want me to.
Last edited by jetnova16 on Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MajorPayne » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:45 pm

Yes. i know you never made it. The point I'm trying to make is that very high poly models (those of over 10,000 polys) can have all kinds of seriously annoying problems as you've found out. I would have no hesitation in attempting to rebuild the model. BC and SFC3 models might look very nice but with Armada being an RTS "looking nice" isn't what you should aim for.

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Post by jetnova16 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:21 pm

MajorPayne wrote:Yes. i know you never made it. The point I'm trying to make is that very high poly models (those of over 10,000 polys) can have all kinds of seriously annoying problems as you've found out. I would have no hesitation in attempting to rebuild the model. BC and SFC3 models might look very nice but with Armada being an RTS "looking nice" isn't what you should aim for.
Oh, ok.
I really wanted to use that D-4 Class starship for my Klingon Alternate Reality Fleet. I have been setting some AR units to the races that they belong to with intentions to set them up as enemies in some missions. I have also come up with Construction Ships and Freighters.

Is there by any chance a completed D-4 Battle Cruiser that is complete and looks like it could be from the Alternate Reality?

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Post by MajorPayne » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:45 pm

http://bridgecommander.filefront.com/fi ... Pack;40411

This one has a complete set but for two things. The D4 isn't the one I've seen online (the nacelles are somewhat different) and I don't believe any of the ships in this pack have the right texture to reflect an alternative reality. You will need the NIF importer for MS3d though but the textures are already lightmapped and they are in TGA format (you may need to temporarily remove the lightmap so you can see the textured model in milkshape).

Speaking of which. I'll have to start my resource gathering for the Klinks shortly.

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Post by jetnova16 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:00 pm

MajorPayne wrote:http://bridgecommander.filefront.com/fi ... Pack;40411

This one has a complete set but for two things. The D4 isn't the one I've seen online (the nacelles are somewhat different) and I don't believe any of the ships in this pack have the right texture to reflect an alternative reality. You will need the NIF importer for MS3d though but the textures are already lightmapped and they are in TGA format (you may need to temporarily remove the lightmap so you can see the textured model in milkshape).

Speaking of which. I'll have to start my resource gathering for the Klinks shortly.
I download the ship pack from the link above to take alook at the ships. By any chance, where can I get the NIF Importer for MS3D? (And also a new SOD Exporter just in case that is one of my problems for creating SOD files.)

How do I remove a light map? I never did that before either.

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