Ablative Armour, Firing Arcs and Torpedo Complements

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Ablative Armour, Firing Arcs and Torpedo Complements

Post by CptBenSisko » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:37 am

Okay, so...a starship has a hull right? and it has shields right? so naturally health rate repairs the hull and shieldrate regenerates the shields. I read somewhere that there is an entry for armor or armour. Is this correct? because that would supplement a starship nicely if we can add a version of ablative hull armour to certain ships. not all ships just certain ones. The Defiant the Sovereign Class, etc. Anyone know anything about this?

Also, does anyone have any clues on how to limit firing arcs there are arcs to fire forward and all the way around but nothing to indicate a weapon can fire aft only or only to port or starboard. If anyone can let me in on the secret please do.

One final thing. Weapon limits. I have discovered how to limit the number of torps you can fire by using special energy. the only problem is that if you have special weapons, you wouldn't be able to recharge them as, you can't recharge torpedos. So i ran a battle between a klingon base and the Enterprise-E using fleetops and the enterprise ran out of torps it was so cool because she was only able to fire her phasers. Any ideas how to add extra entries for special energy. I want to be able to limit both photon and quantum torpedos. So that if you have 1000 special energy for photons and 1000 for quantums, you can exhaust your photons before your quantums and still be able to fight. Anyone have any thoughts about this one? Thanks.

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Re: Ablative Armour, Firing Arcs and Torpedo Complements

Post by MajorPayne » Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:58 pm

Okay, so...a starship has a hull right? and it has shields right? so naturally health rate repairs the hull and shieldrate regenerates the shields. I read somewhere that there is an entry for armor or armour. Is this correct? because that would supplement a starship nicely if we can add a version of ablative hull armour to certain ships. not all ships just certain ones. The Defiant the Sovereign Class, etc. Anyone know anything about this?

I believe this isn't possible to do, but its likely that someone may have done some very rough work on this kind of thing. As it stands I don't think there is any kind of armour entry in the ODF (at least I've never found one anyway). I suppose you could try to have a special weapon of some kind which could increse the shields or hull, but this is theoretical at best.

Also, does anyone have any clues on how to limit firing arcs there are arcs to fire forward and all the way around but nothing to indicate a weapon can fire aft only or only to port or starboard. If anyone can let me in on the secret please do.

After speaking with Matthew Nordhaus (Armada 2 programmer) on the subject he suggested that there is a value which you can change to limit the fire arc (check the pulse based weapons for the original value). His suggestion was to change it to 1.61 and it should (theoretically) make the ship fire directly aft. To a point it does work, however, the ship would still target an enemy in its front arc.

One final thing. Weapon limits. I have discovered how to limit the number of torps you can fire by using special energy. the only problem is that if you have special weapons, you wouldn't be able to recharge them as, you can't recharge torpedos. So i ran a battle between a klingon base and the Enterprise-E using fleetops and the enterprise ran out of torps it was so cool because she was only able to fire her phasers. Any ideas how to add extra entries for special energy. I want to be able to limit both photon and quantum torpedos. So that if you have 1000 special energy for photons and 1000 for quantums, you can exhaust your photons before your quantums and still be able to fight. Anyone have any thoughts about this one? Thanks.

Well with BI3 I started using a limitation on torpedos by doing the same method, 1 point of special energy = 1 torpedo. The basis for this is using:

- //Maximum Value of Special Energy
- maxSpecialEnergy = 1000

- //Rate at which special energy recharges (points per second... we think)
- specialEnergyRate = 0

these lines above can be added to every ship ODF and just change the torpedo ODF files by adding the line:

- specialEnergyCost = 1

and its as easy as that. Shame that there wasn't more than one energy bar. YOu could then use one for torpedos and one for phaser power.

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Post by Atlantis » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:04 am

Any functions relating to "armor" that you see are from the game ArmadaII's code was based on, there's a couple of files that mention stuff like that. But there is no armor, it was renamed to Shields for this game.

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Post by CptBenSisko » Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:51 am

so other than editing the .exe file or a special weapon, there is no way to add armour to any ship? okay any ideas on an ablative armour mod? would be an awesome undertaking. I have done a bunch of weapon mods but an ablative armour special weapon would be awesome.

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Post by JEDI3112 » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:21 am

It isn't very hard to use the armor however you will have to make 2 odf files for one ship. You also need to use the fusion weapon. However I am not sure about the sod and texture files as I don't know anything about them, also this is the Armada2 version. Now for the first part.

Make one odf without armor and the other one with armor. You will have to add the armor hitpoints to the hull hitpoints. I have found an example on Armada2files. You should take a look there. It is one of the NX mods.

Now for part 2
Use the fusionfiles to switch between the odf files, like this, this is a part of the file from the NX mod, first to polarise the hull add this, please note the fnxp is the polarised NX and the fnx is the normal NX

// Converts it into an fgalaxy
fusedClass = "fnxp"

// Multiweapon, requires 8 Borg cubes
multiReqClass0 = "fnx"
multiReqMin0 = 1

To undo this you could add another fusion weapon, just invert tje fnxp and the fnx, like this

// Converts it into an fgalaxy
fusedClass = "fnx"

// Multiweapon, requires 8 Borg cubes
multiReqClass0 = "fnxp"
multiReqMin0 = 1

That should be it. If you just want to add armor to the ships without the ability to raise or lower it just make 2 lines, like this

maxHealth = (hull hitpoints + armor hitpoints)
maxShields = (shield hitpoints)
for regenerating armor also add this
HealthRate = (the armor recharge rate)
ShieldRate = (the shield recharge rate)

And that should work.

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Post by CptBenSisko » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:49 am

The idea is for it have its own energy and after a certain number of hits with the shields down will be destroyed and bare hull be exposed. so the shields would have hitpoints like 2125 w/ recharge rate for my sovvy, then the armor like 1900 w/ no repair rate and then the hull would be like 700 and be able to be repaired over time. thats basically how i want to do it. Now it could be done with special energy but that would rule out using special energy for torpedo complements.

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Post by jazznaz898 » Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:43 pm

presuming this thread aint dead, i have an idea for the armour. But it depends on somthing.. Does the sod for the carbonite reflector thingy on the soveriegn class rotate? or just the texture? because if it didnt rotate, u mite be able to modify the settings in the weapon file, so that i doesnt let anything through, and it uses a modified version of the sod of the unit, with armoured textures instaed of the blue bubble thing. That is, if we are talking about sumfin like voyagers special armour it uses against the borg...
i mite actually try it for my mod...
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Post by CptBenSisko » Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:34 pm

Nope thread is not dead. Very much alive in fact. Now ur idea isn't a bad one. if we could shrink the SOD of the Corbomite reflector so that it is inside the ship, that might be a way to simulate ablative armour. Normal ablative armour does not deploy like Voyager's uber armour does. Normal ablative armour was designed along with the defiant to be a final defense against weapons fire after the shields fail. according to some sources the defiant, and sovereign class class have ablative armour covering 100 percent of the hull, while ships like the akira and galaxy only have portions of their hull covered. Now the ablative armour would only be repairable at a shipyard or repair facility, unlike the hull integrity and shields able to recharge...would be interested to see what we can come up with.

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Post by Warmaster_Rob » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:11 am

i wouldnt mind seeing the uber armour of voyager come into play. the idea off getting it to work is pretty sweet. good luck with it
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Post by S618-18741 » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:13 pm

Has any one thought of using research pods for armor you could place them at points on the hull and then a ship would fire and destroy them before hitting the hull of the ship, the problem would be that researching them would be the only way to get the amor on the ship and going to a ship yard wouldn't repair them but im sure there is a way to change the amount of hitpoints research pods have

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Post by Elrond » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:30 pm

Hmmm... My theory on building pods on a ship is that the pods would stay in the same spot they were built and not be connected to the ship. However, the fact that the pods are associated with specified hardpoints may mean that the pods may move with the ship. I'm not sure what would happen with that. I may have to try it myself.
For the armor part - the pods wouldn't really protect the ship in the game (they would in real life, but in the game, things work wierd). Say if we could cover the entire area of the ship with pods that represented armor. In real life, the ship would be protected. However, on the game, if the enemy selects the ship as a target, any fire that is incoming will hit the ship and not the pods, unless the ship targets the pods and not the ship. Now there is a way for this to work: perhaps setting the intrinsic and attack values in the ship and pod odf files may make the enemy attack the pods first (assuming the pods were given a higher priority). However, if playing online or if you are playing against a ship that has these pods, you would be able to target the ship, which would eliminate the effectiveness of the pods. A ship in Armada cannot block firepower if a ship behind it is targetted - but there are crazy ways of pulling this off.
This may be one of the most bold mods to pull off! This gets confusing - stay with me on this - just remember that some if not all stuff doesn't go through planets! I noticed that when using transwarp drive that if you plot a transwarp course and between your ship's location and your ship's destination there is a planet, transwarp will be blocked. This means that you cannot target something that is on the other side of a planet. Now if we were to give the pods this aspect (which would mean using some variable from the planet file) we could make it so that the pods would act like planets in that the ship covered by the pods could not be targetted unless an assaillent vessel had a direct line of site between the pods. Think of it this way: start a game of Star Trek Armada II. Make sure a ship you build has transwarp drive. Then when you have transwarp, place the ship in front of a planet. Now click on the transwarp button and when the select target location cursor appears, then choose a target directly on the other side of the planet (that means directly on the other side - not 90 degrees, not 270 degrees, but 180 degrees - on the other side). You will most likely notice that the ship will either not engage transwarp or it will maneuver into a position where it will be able to engage transwarp. If this works the same for phasers, disruptors, and torpedoes, then a ship won't be able to fire through anything that has this aspect as a planet does.
Also, the pods would need to be flat and fit on the hull so that the ship using the pods would 'fit' with these pods. Since this thread is definitely alive, I can offer yet another possibility: the use of worker bees. On the FleetOps mod, stations have worker bees that move around them just as construction ships have worker bees that build stations. If the worker bee that was selected was one that was small, just like the original, and documented in an odf file, then the new worker bee could be given the planet aspect that causes enemy vessels not to be able to target beyond it. (The worker bees could surround a ship and protect it from pretty much all firepower - everything except landing parties.) Actually, the worker bees could even protect against a holding beam (that can take over a ship) or a shield disruptor (which leaves the ship vulnerable to landing parties). The amount of protection on a ship would depend only on the amount and size of the worker bees surrounding it - that means that the more the worker bees, the less likely an enemy could get a shot off on the ship. Of course, the ship with the worker bees would not be able to fire through the worker bees either! Therefore, this has to be accomplished only through using the fusion class special weapon to change the ship back and forth from "worker bee protection mode" to normal mode. In normal mode, the ship would be able to fire weapons normally. This is good for a small ship that is retreating and has no chance of surviving an assault from say, a fleet of Negh'Vars or Scimitars! It would have to be special energy-based so that the effect could not last forever and eventually the ship would be up **** creek without a paddle! :lol:
The Corbomite Reflector idea is something that I thought would be good for skin shields as well. I heard of a mod where both regular shields and skin shields will somehow be used (that means secondary shields somehow). The skin shield is kinda like the Corbomite armor method. I like the idea a lot - it would be a way of not using a fusion weapon to initiate armor. It's an idea I would say that would be good for Armada 3. In that game, there should be an algorithm that matches the shield shape of a ship to that of the ship itself! That would mean every ship would have a realistic-looking skin shield that would make the game just awesome! That's if Armada 3 comes out - I know, it's a long shot and is expensive for the companies, but I wanna see what they could dish out for a new Armada game! I'm soon going to post a new forum on some of these ideas for Armada 3 (whether the possibility will be a reality or not). Feel free of course to state which ideas were your's! We may need all these minds to come up with something cool when we start modding Armada 3! I'm gonna go ahead and try the Corbomite Reflector idea for myself - it sounds like it has a lot of promise, since the Corbomite Reflector is SOD model-based! Also, as far as the amount of special energy bars there should be - it could be an array of special energy reserves in Armada 3 so that there will be energy for torpedoes, phasers, secondary shields, armor, etc... I know it could be done by editting the Armada 2 exe file, but I'm not all that familiar with the legal issues concerning exe modification - I'm pretty sure it's prohibited even if distributed in a mod. I'd like a heads-up on that.
Well, that sure was long, but just needed to consider these ideas. Great ideas, all! Great and original ideas a'plenty. If I can come up with anything for the new "corbomite armor" :P then it may be worth my while and perhaps I will submit it if it works well in the game! 8)

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Post by Epytron_Omega » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:13 pm

Wow Elrond, that was sure long. Took me a good five minutes to read it! I have an idea for the special weapons and torpedoes problem, well it isnt a real solution but let me post what I have come up with.

My idea is this: Have the torpedoes set to use the special energy with what MaP posted, each torpedo counts as one energy with no energy being re-energized (except when heading back to a shipyard for repairs) and, that is if it is possible, have the special weapons set on timers. Like for the Shield Inversion Beam, have it set on a timer that only allows it to be active for say 5 seconds, then it goes offline, and you wait say 7 seconds before you can bring it back online. Now my theory on the special weapons being on timers is probably all hypothetical, but if someone could get it to work, then that would be another thing that could be added to A3, that is if, like Elrond said, they ever come out with it. Anyway that is just my opinion, not sure if it would work or not, but if it does would someone please inform me so that I can use it in my mod. Thanx all.

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Post by Elrond » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:07 am

It's possible I think for some weapons to be put on timers. Sounds like a cool idea!

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Post by Elrond » Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:53 pm

I have a possible idea. It is actually a combination of ideas that just may work. This idea involves the research of specialized weapons pods aboard a starship. These pods could be created to contain either photon torpedoes, phasers, special weapons, etc. What we would do is start with a ship that has some of its own basic weapons such as standard phasers and disruptors along with any special weapons you would want to add. We would add no torpedoes to that ship and instead have the ship be able to 'activate' or research invisible pods that would be attached to certain hardpoints that would normally fire weapons. Each of these invisible pods would actually be either a phaser bank or a photon launcher. These weapon pods, which have more powerful weapons than the base weapons on the ship itself, would have a certain amount of special energy that would be used for torpedoes.
In a way, a pod would be like a phaser bank or photon launcher. They would have a certain capacity of special energy (like 300 for 300 torpedoes or 1000 for 1000 torpedoes). The weapons they use would use one point of energy, as said earlier in the forum. When exhausted, the pods could possibly be repaired (but a shipyard would probably only repair and reload the ship itself, not the pods).
The pods could even contain crew so that if they became derelict, they would not respond. This entire idea depends on the pods being able to be connected to the ship even when it is travelling. Whether or not that is possible is the prime question we need to concern ourselves with.
Since the pods could probably not be repaired and reloaded, they would have to be decommissioned. In this way, it is like a weapon system that would have to be taken offline when it becomes useless. The weapon system would have to be rebuilt with a certain amount of resources (like any other pod is built). This resource could possibly be special energy of the ship building it; either that or just a small amount of dilithium (it could be assumed that the dilithium is onboard the ship in a way).
There is another possibility: to equip each 'weapons pod' with a special weapon that has a VEEERRRRYYYY slow energy-recharging weapon that would recharge the pod perhaps every so often. In a way, it is realistic. In most newer ships, torpedoes can be fabricated but would require resources. Perhaps 1 unit of dilithium and metal could suffice for one torpedo - that means every time you click the energy recharge button on the pod that it will cost you one dilithium unit and one metal unit.
Also, when a weapon pod goes offline because of being derelict, a repair crew from the ship could come aboard to bring the systems online, just like a ship or station could transport crew aboard a derelict ship. The ship itself could even possess a repair crew that would restore the systems in the pod. It is even possible that this repair crew could even restore the special energy of the weapons pod (at a cost).
I will probably have more on this idea when I try it out a little. I tell ya that if I can get the pods to move with the ship that this would be the biggest and toughest step in making all this possible. In this way, every weapon system could have its OWN special energy!!!!!!! It's an exciting idea, although I bet that there will be some classLabel issue yet again. But it's not that likely to run into that problem with this idea - the ONLY problem that could be encountered is that the pods will not move with the ship. Also, to use a special weapon or target a special target with a pod, you would have to click on the pod so that you could use it to your advantage! This may be a tough job to do and may require zoom-in! It would be nice to be able to use the ship to target an enemy vessel with the pods following in-suit! Or else, the pods will fire by themselves depending on the level of autonomy you select for each pod! OK, I did it again - another long post, but I had to mention this one!

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Post by Elrond » Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:06 pm

As the Klingons would say, "SUCCESS"! I have created a test ship that was able to research, move, and use weapons. I made a pod to put on that ship which fires torpedoes and provides the ship with cloak enhancement! The special energy thing even works just right! I had to put the line "avoidMe = 0" in the pod file so that the ship that uses the pod does not jump all over the place! I must say it works seemlessly, absolutely seemlessly! I had a few problems at first with getting the right aspects into both the test research ship and the weapon pod, but in the end, the result is great! I am going to show an example of the ship odf, the pod odf, and the weapon odf that I used for special energy! I had to edit the GUI_GLOBAL.SPR and tech1.tt files so that I could build the pod and research ship. Obviously, new pods can be added to the rest of the ship, so it should work out wonderfully! Here's another new plus: if you're curious where your hardpoints are on a new ship you downloaded, you can use a pod on each hardpoint to see where that hardpoint is on the ship! This may have been the coolest mod I ever made! I will submit the necessary files for this mod when I am ready, but I was so surprised that I came up with this so quickly! As I thought, there were no crashes, no classLabel conflicts, and no in-game problems after I worked out some of the physics stuff!!! I will be testing the installation and gameplay of this mod on two of my computers so that they remain consistent and so no one has any problems with the download! Well, that's our way around the special energy and torpedo problem!!! Thanks for the ideas! They were used very well! I will include you folks in the credits in the readme file of the mod when it comes out! I feel you folks deserve a great deal of credit for the ideas!!! Well, I would say this forum thread is far from dead!!!

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