Tactically Illogical

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Straxx
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Tactically Illogical

Post by Straxx » Tue May 25, 2004 4:25 am

Hey everyone. I just wanted your opinions about a certain scene in Star Trek: NEMESIS. Okay, in between the times that the Enterprise was being hammered by the Scimitar, the Romulans arrived to help her fight the Remans. All right now, if Shinzon's plan was to be such a big stain on the honor of the Romulan empire, don't you all think that they should have sent more than TWO warbirds?? They knew how powerful the Scimitar was. At least, the Tal Shiar must have known. I just thought that this was a tactical error on the part of the Romulans. What do you think??
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Post by robdavidge » Tue May 25, 2004 6:23 am

you are not taking into account that fact that sending more than two warbirds may have meant that the Romulans saving the Universe, instead of Cpt. Picard...so you see, it WAS a logical move...

:lol: :P

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Post by Alohaman » Tue May 25, 2004 6:32 am

I guess it was logical for the movie and ratings, but it was kinda crazy for the Romulans. They were using only two cruddy versions of the Romulan Warbird when they could have sent more than two of the orginal warbirds to finish the Reman's off. The reason this was used because they wanted Picard to win, having the Romulans win would be very odd and they needed to show the part of Data getting killed, etc.
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Re: Tactically Illogical

Post by MajorPayne » Tue May 25, 2004 7:35 am

Straxx wrote:Hey everyone. I just wanted your opinions about a certain scene in Star Trek: NEMESIS. Okay, in between the times that the Enterprise was being hammered by the Scimitar, the Romulans arrived to help her fight the Remans. All right now, if Shinzon's plan was to be such a big stain on the honor of the Romulan empire, don't you all think that they should have sent more than TWO warbirds?? They knew how powerful the Scimitar was. At least, the Tal Shiar must have known. I just thought that this was a tactical error on the part of the Romulans. What do you think??
Hmmmm, my take on this would be as follows:

Simply put it was the small fact that the Valdore and its sister ship were dispatched without prior knowledge of the Scimitars defensive/offensive systems. I reckon thats its perfectly possible that the Empire actually did send its normal D'Deridex class, but only after the battle had finished. Okay so on this you may argue that the Scimitar was the Romulan flagship. Whilst this might be true its not known as to how much information the Remans actually shared with the Romulans.

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Post by Voyager7456 » Tue May 25, 2004 10:28 am

Alohaman wrote:I guess it was logical for the movie and ratings, but it was kinda crazy for the Romulans. They were using only two cruddy versions of the Romulan Warbird when they could have sent more than two of the orginal warbirds to finish the Reman's off. The reason this was used because they wanted Picard to win, having the Romulans win would be very odd and they needed to show the part of Data getting killed, etc.
I thought the Valdores was more powerful then the D'Deridex... I was probally wrong though.

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Post by Alohaman » Tue May 25, 2004 10:55 am

Could have been but the ships weren't that much of an upgrade compared to the original, one was totally wasted before it did any real damage to the Schmitar.

They sorta looked like the ship on Armada 2, you know, the warbird you get before you get the D'Deridex. I may be wrong though...
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Post by rodglas » Tue May 25, 2004 12:39 pm

Of course Shinzon didn't want to destroy Enterprise, he needed Picard alive. The Valdore and her sister ship were not so lucky.

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Post by Cpt_Geddes » Tue May 25, 2004 6:50 pm

The D'Deridex is capable of warp 8. I belive the Valdore/Norexian class is faster than the D'Deridex, pobably similar warp speeds to the sovereign, so the D'Deridex didn't reach the battle in time. Also I think that the Valdore/Norexian class is a less powerful, less shielded ship but a more maneuverable warship than the D'Deridex because the D'Deridex performed "badly" in the dominion war because of its lack of maneuverability. Given that the E-E is supposed to be highly maneuverable for its size the Valdore/Norexian class is therefore highly maneuverable. Anyway, the Valdore/Norexian looks way better than the D'Deridex. :)

Another thing, the Romulans were pretty friendly for a bitter enemy of the feds, there is an old script of nemesis on the internet where the romulans just show up and start firing, without hailing the E-E and Riker says "I think the cavalry has just arrived". I would have liked to see the Valdores/Norexian class in the movie longer but hey.

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Post by iOSYS » Tue May 25, 2004 8:25 pm

If you think about it one can determine thr rough strength of a norexan. in tng, a type b warbird was about a match for the galaxy class pre-dom war refit. A galaxy class can be hit by about 3-4 quantum torps (that info is not cannon, but many sources say that that is about right) and a photon torpedo is about 1/2 - 1/3 as powerfull as a quantum (again not cannon but generaly accepted). the valdor takes at least 7-9 photon hots from the scimitar when shinzon dose his little "drop cloak on the aft port quadrant" stunt and at least 3 more photon hits and 5 disruptor hits during the battle, this means that the norexan class is stronger than the galaxy class, (not taking into acount weather the scimitars photons are about the same as federation torps in power), but not as strong as the sovvie. i supose that that would make it about as strong as a Defiant class, just bigger, but in my opinion much stronger than a b-type warbird (in ds9 in the chin'toka invasion, a warbird started to spin out of control after 4 cardie photons). I am actualy not sure about the exact number of weapon hits that the Valdor absorbed but that is why I said "rough strength of a norexan" but I think this is about right. If so I think it was sound to send 2 defiant style rommie ships to help the e-e. Also the norexan seems to be much more hevily armed than a type-b, it has at least 2 high speed photon launchers, 4 rapid fire pulse disruptor cannons and perhaps a beam disruptor system. the pnotons are also closer to the pulse kind the Enterprise uses. the type b warbird is equipped with 1 large cannon on the bow with both a beam and pulse setting, 2 wind disruptors, 1 frwrd, 1 aft torp system. although it probably carries more torps, the b type cant dish out fast enough.


plz excuse my spelling, grammer etc...half asleep :)!

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Post by Straxus » Tue May 25, 2004 9:01 pm

They where kinda like the enterprise in most episodes of any series... The only poor fools in the area at the time to deal with the problem. Everybody else is conveniently scanning nebulas, patroling borders, getting repairs or stopping off at McDonalds or the intergalactic Wal-Mart....
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Post by Phantom » Tue May 25, 2004 10:17 pm

Looking at the Noxerians compared to the Sovereign class, they are probably only a little larger than an Intrepid or Akira Class,


They were not called Noxerian Battleships or anything for that matter to my knowledge, so it is logical to assume that they are support ships. Also you cannot rule out that Shinzon knew the exact locations of the Romulan fleets and to send in ships he knew about would have meant suicide for the Romulans as that would have been predictable


As for their swift destruction, if they are lightbattleship or cruisers similar to the Federation proposed counterparts, then they wouldnt he strong like the mighty Sovereign or the Scimitar itself, it was designed to support the Enterprise not to engage on their own

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As for the blow outs of the two ships, the Scimitar has rapid fire pulse weaponry and torpedoes. Obviously like Klingon and Dominion ships, they are weakest against those. The Noxerian had several torpedoes fired in the same location in the shielding on her wing. Each impact wounded the shielding and before it could recharge another impacted. The end result was a hole in the shielding which enabled a torpedo to fracture the wing causing it to explode and damage the Enterprise's shielding


As for the Valdore her stardrive section took heavy damage in the same method by tearing holes in the shielding



The reason the Enterprise wasnt destroyed, is because Shinzon specifically stated:


Shinzon "I don't want the Enterprise destroyed"


So they were targeting sections in the shields to wound her, but not destroy her. By the time he wanted her destroyed, the Enterprise was heading at full impulse directly too her which disabled his weapons array and destroyed the main shuttlebay (I guess it was just too big to fit in the doors)



But a D'Deradex is almost double the size of the Galaxy Class (I think it is 1.8) the Noxerian is about half the size of the Sovereign and the Sovereign is only slightly larger than the D'Deredex, so the Noxereigns are probably looking at about 1/3rd the size of the Romulan Battleships



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Post by Cpt_Geddes » Tue May 25, 2004 11:07 pm

the sovereign is 680m long, the D'Deridex is just over 1km.

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Post by Elrond » Tue May 25, 2004 11:41 pm

The amazing thing I notice is that Picard was transported aboard Shinzon's vessel seemlessly - the transporter on Shinzon's ship was able to penetrate shields of the Enterprise and transport Picard aboard. To be at a tactical advantage, Shinzon could have just tried that again, albeit that the plot of the movie would be quite repetitive. In the movies, a plan is not often or never retried - because of the obvious fact that it would become boring for the plot (just like if the Romulans were made to win instead of the Enterprise against the Scimitar - a good plot has to have the main character winning usually :D ).
However, if this were a real battle, Shinzon probably would have transported Picard aboard his ship for another attempt. In this real-life scenario, Schinzon would have no need for the Enterprise anymore. He would have taken Picard aboard and destroyed the Enterprise in just a minute or two. On the movie, Schinzon didn't want the Enterprise destroyed because Picard was aboard, but he could have, in theory, transported Picard aboard his ship and destroyed the Enterprise. After that, Picard would be used to give Schinzon longer life and the Scimitar would most certainly destroy all life on Earth.
The D'Deridex ships could have participated in the battle, which they could have if it were a real battle - but not in the movies. The Noxerian Valdore was a new ship that we hadn't seen in any other movie, so that's why there weren't any other ships. Of course, they could have escorted a D'Deridex into battle.
Of course, that's probably how it would have worked if it were a real battle (given that Shinzon still had the capability to transport Picard aboard through the Enterprise' shields). Bad plot for the movies, good plot for a tactical advantage. What's tactically advantageous and plot-wise effective are two totally different things, as has been mentioned here already! :lol:

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Post by Phantom » Wed May 26, 2004 12:56 am

The Enterprise's tactical systems were offline (IE her shields were down) as they were in orbit of Romulus I believe and Picard didnt raise her shields when they met and continued to meet Shinzon Picard



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