Tactically Illogical

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Cpt_Geddes
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Post by Cpt_Geddes » Wed May 26, 2004 1:17 am

the E-E raised its shields after Picard was transported.

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Straxx
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Post by Straxx » Wed May 26, 2004 1:22 am

Good points to everyone. But needless to say I still think that the Tal Shiar could have known something to give Denatra an advantage. This will serve the Romulans well. The Noxerian ships will need some 'tweaking' in order to make them as infamous and the D'Deridex starships. Denatra and her remaining crew were probably 'snatched' by Tal Shiar agents after returning home to give them tactical information about the Scimitar. An excellent test, to find out what technology would be needed to copy the Scimitar's cloaking/combat abilities. As you all know, this is right up their alley. 8)

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Post by Atlantis » Wed May 26, 2004 4:31 am

I still say the Norexan is just an attack cruiser, similar to the Klingon K'Vort or Federation's Steamrunner. Not as maneuverable as the smaller ships, but not as powerful as a Galaxy or D'Deridex. Perhaps that's all they could get without arousing suspicion....

I agree about the Tal Shiar. There's no way this could happen without them knowing, theyd have a cloaked ship there as soon as it started, and if Picard didnt kill Shinzon, they would. In fact they probably beamed Data over to their ship. (i posted about this in another forum a while back)

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Post by Phantom » Wed May 26, 2004 9:54 am

wasnt the Tal Shiar destroyed by the Dominion?


Or at least destroyed enough to force the secret army to rebuild? If that was the case they'd be too busy researching and building their fleets than to keep an eye on the 'dirty' remans



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Post by nowereman » Wed May 26, 2004 10:28 am

Gonwee wrote:I wouldn't wonder about the amount of ships sent but why did they die so fast they were only in the battle long enough to find the ship then boom there gone.
you seem to have forgotten that as the enterprise heads for romulan space they hold a metting where they say that shinzon fought 12 suceful engagements in the dominian war. the romulans could only send 2 ships cause the empire is big and if they sent to many someone would attack and the empire had just sufferd from the dominian so there miltary was a little hurt and not many ships were arround so most likely the romulans were sending reinforcements
do not start with me you will not win

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Post by QuantumHalo » Wed May 26, 2004 4:00 pm

I personally think that the Norexan is roughly equivalent in firepower to the D'Deridex. Judging by the readout that Geordi gives earlier (52 disruptor banks and 28 odd photon tubes?)... that's a helluva lot of firepower that the Scimitar has. Now, let's assume that the Scimitar has approximately 75-90%% of her weapons on the front, as would be tactically feasible (Alpha strike the target w/ all weapons while cloaked). Take the Norexan who is hit rather nastily by the Scimitar's weapons, Donatra's ship.

The vessel is punctured by a full salvo of torpedoes in the drive section... for strength indices, the Galaxy is obviously much weaker... warp core breach with a few hits from an outdated Bird of Prey. Here, a half dozen to a dozen torpedoes right in the engines and no breach. We also do not know how much damage the ships had previously taken. Of course, consider the "I want the Enterprise alive" approach.

Also, note the Viceroy's fear at the approach of Donatra's ship... he seems worried. This indicates to me that the weapons on that ship are to be feared by even the Scimitar. (Remember, shields at 70% after the entire battle). Plus, the damage done possible from the Norexan would have had to have been enough that Donatra would have believed that she could do sufficient damage to disable his cloaking device. Add to this that she says "Stand by disruptors indicates that she has more weapons ready to fire. She didn't get a chance to use them because of the Scimitar's stopping manoeuvre, which also hints to some powerful close-range weapons.

The possibility of this type of short range weapons can be further supported by the general manoeuvrability of the vessels. Obviously the enemy would not let the big, slow D'Deridex move into range and orientation to fire these supposed supercannons (which would seem to be located in the main pods beside the nacelles on the Norexan). Therefore, a new, more manoeuvrable ship is needed to bring the weapons to bear. Enter the Norexan, a smaller, faster version of the D'Deridex, more suited to space combat. We must after all remember that the bulk of the D'Deridex is taken up by troop transport space. This, when removed (think it was 16,000 odd troops), could drop the vessel size significantly.

To my mind, the Scimitar itself could not have been constructed w/out Romulan help, the Remans just don't have the freedom and materials they would need. This leads me to say that the Romulans were fully aware of the capabilities of the vessel and are, to put it simply, incompetent. Nearly every captain in Trek seems tactically incompetent, so this is no exception. However, I'll save my treatise on tactics for later. My hands are getting tired.

Of course, if the Norexan is indeed a manoeuvrable battlecruiser, it would not be feasible to send the D'Deridexs, even IF they were more powerful, they simply wouldn't be able to turn fast enough to keep the Scimitar in their lumbering gun sights. But then why not send a half dozen Norexans? Could be that they are just entering service and there are few around, but Picard (or anyone else)'s lack of surprise at any 'new' design for the Romulans suggests otherwise.

Could also be that warp speed has been sacrificed terribly, but this can be invalidated by travel times. Shinzon + Enterprise depart from Romulus at maximum warp (I might also add that the Scimitar is faster than Starfleet's fastest ship at max. warp., hinting that the Tal Shiar are not dead/useless, or that Romulan research is ahead of the UFP's). The Norexans arrived soon after the two above vessels at the Rift, clearly showing they have a speed comparable to the Enterprise, even if we say that they took no time at all to assemble a task force. Of course, this assembly time would be a factor, knowing the Scimitar will catch the E-E in a few hours, the Romulans dispatch all the nearest ships at top speed to intercept. These two, sent from Romulus with Donatra, arrived first.

Now, to anyone who read all that, give yourself a hand :P
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Post by Atlantis » Thu May 27, 2004 3:49 am

Perhaps.

Perhaps the Viceroy was scared because the Romulan Government was turning against them, that they were being brought out into the open....

Oh yes, and theres a rumour that the Remans got a lot of their tech by scavenging during the Dominion war. That would explain a slight hint of Breen looks about the Scimitar.

@Phantom: You think the Tal Shiar would use ALL of their resources and ships in an offensive mission? Perhaps, but i believe they wouldnt send ALL of their ships out there.

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Post by Cpt_Geddes » Sat May 29, 2004 3:30 am

I agree with Atlantis about the Viceroy. He was scared because if the Romulans would send to ships against them, surely the Romulans changed their mind and even the Scimitar wouldn't be able to stand up against the Empire.

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Post by QuantumHalo » Sat May 29, 2004 11:16 am

I was talking about the part where he says "She's almost on us!", not where the warbirds appear :P
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Cpt_Geddes
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Post by Cpt_Geddes » Sat May 29, 2004 10:11 pm

Who wouldn't be scared when a fully fledged warship is that close to your ship?

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Post by Lennis » Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:22 am

Everyone has made valid points. One that hasn't really been addressed is $$$. With enough time and $$$, Berman and company could create a truly kick-butt tactical battle scene. I don't agree with the suggestion that such a long drawn-out scene would be bad for the plot. Trek fans have been demanding a deep, complex battle scene for years. That wasn't feasible in DS9 or Voyager due to time constraints. In a movie like Nemesis, the only excuse is money. Imagine how much it would cost to double the running time of the Enterprise/Scimitar battle.

In reality, the Romulan ships would not have been so easily destroyed. Berman just couldn't justify an extention of the running time with the budget he had.

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