Star Trek XI Announced

The place where serious discussions can take place.

Moderators: thunderchero, MrVulcan

TrashMan
Cadet 4th Year
Cadet 4th Year
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:00 am
Location: Behind you, clocked, playing with the fire button
Contact:

Post by TrashMan » Tue May 04, 2004 6:13 am

!. TNG, DS9 and Voy are in hte same time frame, so "continuing on" from TNG crew to DS9 or Voy crew is a logical error...

Allso, DS9 and Voyager suck big time (the only good thing was the battles).
The last ST movie , the Nemessis was the worst of them all. They turned ST into some b-production-lot's-action-and-horror-movie.
Lot's of dark tones, flasy equipment, Vampire-like opponents (just WHERE did the Remans come from...there was no mention of them in TNG)
poop, poop, poop.... I flet like someone was smaking a mix of Buffy the vampire slayer, Terminato and Galaxy Quest...

The TNG crew is legendary...with the end of TNG the best ST era passed...
DS9 tried to compete, but they had too many plot holes and inconsistencies, and Voyager was even worse...
USS Apocalypse
*I let my Phaser Cannon do the talking!*

Wok
Cadet 2nd Year
Cadet 2nd Year
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:00 am
Contact:

Post by Wok » Tue May 04, 2004 9:46 pm

NOTHING PERSONALL BUT...

Allso, DS9 and Voyager suck big time (the only good thing was the battles).
No offense, but thats a pretty (EDIT) iffy thing to say. And you are joking about DS9 right?

Star Trek is SO MUCH MORE ABOVE big pointless CGI battles. It has meaning to it, unlike Star Wars: Episode 3,4,5,6,7,8,9.
Thats what makes it so appealing to alot of people. If all you had was paper thin characterization with the inevitable Space-Battle, it would make a poor film.

ST is a large step above other sci-fi.
The last ST movie , the Nemessis was the worst of them all.
No. YOU didn't like it. YOU find it the worst of the all. The real 'worst' film was probably the fifth.
They turned ST into some b-production-lot's-action-and-horror-movie.
Lot's of dark tones, flasy equipment, Vampire-like opponents (just WHERE did the Remans come from...there was no mention of them in TNG)
B-movie? First Contact is alot more of one.

In my opinion Nemesis took a step away from the usuall look, and suceeded. I thought the darker tone was appropriate. There is no way you can say it looks like a 'poop' B-movie. Look at Shatners film for crying out loud: it had a blue horse!
poop, poop, poop.... I flet like someone was smaking a mix of Buffy the vampire slayer, Terminato and Galaxy Quest...
What? You know what Character development is right?
The TNG crew is legendary...with the end of TNG the best ST era passed...
Hmm. Yeah TNG is a classic.

I agree with that, since DS9 is too much of a rip-off of Babylon 5. It was good, sometimes very good, but lacked alot of originality in places. It should have been able to stand up on own. I suppose.

Alohaman
Cadet 4th Year
Cadet 4th Year
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:00 am
Location: The Alohaman Corner
Contact:

Post by Alohaman » Wed May 05, 2004 9:24 am

1. DS9 was okay and Voyager was great
2. Nemesis was the worst of the movie series, I agree with TrashMan.
3. First Contact was with the Borg, of course it's going to be spooky, the Borg always gave me that feeling when I was a little kid.
4. More people today are about action and killing than a good plot or story like Shatner's films and Stewart's earlier films.
5. Even Patrick Stewart didn't like how he played in Nemesis, he said that he knew that Picard wasn't like the one in Nemesis.
6. For some reason when I think about Ds9 I think of Sisko with two phaser rifles in his hands, going psycho by blasting everything in sight. That's the impression it left off of me, (or maybe I play a little too much Metroid Fusion, damn SA-X...)

I have given my opinion, I don't have nothing else to say right now.
"He who laughs last, thinks slowest."

"Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak."

User avatar
xxxxx
Cadet 2nd Year
Cadet 2nd Year
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 2:00 am

Post by xxxxx » Wed May 05, 2004 9:44 am

I agree with most of what you have said, but the thing that struck me most about Nemesis was how it was other trek plots combined into one film,

For Example, I felt that most of the story was taken from the Wrath of Khan. Picard being kirk and Data being Spock(Especially with the way they left it at the end). And the Thalaron being the new Genesis. With Shinzon being the new Khan.

I also felt that the battle scene, the Enterprise and Valdore was too much like Enterprise and Excelsior in the undiscoverd country searching for the cloacked bird of prey.

Would it be so much to ask for an original story.

That pisses me off, there are so many of us out here as fans who know that we deserve more, and could probably do it better our selves.

But overall i think Nemesis' weak point was its director, Stuart Baird. Big mistake. Anyone who has the DVD will know from his directors commentry that be knows nothing about trek. He spent more time talking about Luke skywalker and starwars. He completely forgets Michael Dorns name in the Argo scene. To me that completely disrespects the brand. John Frakes would have done a better job, they only punished him because Insurrection was a failure(Because of the poop story i might add).

The best way to save the brand is to use the former trek stars who want to help the brand. John Frakes, Levar Burton, Robert Duncan McNeil, Roxan Dawson, etc. These are people who know how the brand works, know what hte fans want and can see Roddenberrys vision of trek.

Its a bloody shame because Rick Berman has run the brand into the ground and will kill the next film. This is just my opinion, i have a lot to say on the matter. Thoughts?

Alohaman
Cadet 4th Year
Cadet 4th Year
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:00 am
Location: The Alohaman Corner
Contact:

Post by Alohaman » Wed May 05, 2004 9:57 am

Just to say, it was Brent Spiner who wrote Nemesis, not Berman but I do agree about him running it into the ground lol
"He who laughs last, thinks slowest."

"Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak."

Phantom
Past Administrator
Past Administrator
Posts: 1704
Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 2:00 am

Post by Phantom » Wed May 05, 2004 10:19 am

I will actually comment that I didnt like Nemesis' acting.


The stuff about finding a postitronic signature with Picard Worf and Data - it didnt 'feel' right it was very plain and without expression. I mean 'shock and awe' would have been what I would have thought - but it was like they read it off a script and projected it in a single tone


Same goes with the Picard talk to Admiral Janeway. the "Just Lucky Admiral" line - eh lol. I think the problem is that the Picard character now is so over used and stuff



I'd agree that the film actually has similar qualities to the other films




The Unknown "TMP, TFF"
The Dark/horror feel "FC"
The crossover with other season characters "G, FC"
The allied battle "TUDC"
The Scimiar cloak fire "TUDC"
Fighting in the Barzan Nebula "TWOK"
Refited Enterprise "TMP, TWOK, TSFS"
The Death of Data "TWOK"
A sinister villain with one goal "TWOK, G, FC, I"
Romulan Involvement (TFF, TUDC, G)




KEY
TMP = The Motion Picture
TWOK = The Wrath of Khan
TSFS = The Search for Spock
TVH = The Voyage home
TFF = The Final Frontier
TUDC = The Undiscovered Country
G = Generations
FC = First Contact
I = Insurrection
N = Nemesis



Overall however I was impressed by Nemesis.





What I would have changed if I had made Nemesis

1. The USS ENTERPRISE NCC 1701-E Retrofit

The fact that the Enterprise dramatically changed thanks to "The Dominion War" those refit modifications should have been made during Star Trek Insurrection. The fact that it is now 30 decks + and still is the same thickness (The Enterprise - E has 24 Decks.

The Reman Board on Deck 29. Riker and the Reman Viceroy goe down a jeffries tube to the lowest deck (Deck 30) and the Viceroy 'falls' to his death from the bottom of the ship - how if he is already there I dunno but I counted 4 and a bit decks so the Enteprise is 35 or more Decks making her 9 decks slimmer than the Galaxy Class - That would have changed to say Deck 16


The Argo Scene/Arrival of B-4

I would have rather seen the crew than a fancy ATV to be honist. The away team could have transported down to the planet and then picked up the parts and beamed back as I cannot recall there being any Transporter problems. Though I think there was a Ion Storm in the system that La-Forge said "didnt look too neighbourly". But I would have altered that scene and placed the camo appearences of Wesley Crusher and Ro Laren as both were at the Wedding but their camos were cut out cause they wanted action rather than the family aspect


Sickbay

Perhaps proof that the sets used on Star Trek Voyager were destroyed after production as on Star Trek First Contact and Star Trek Insurrection. The Sickbay of the Enterprise-E was basically Voyagers, Same layout just different doors and a new coat of paint. I would have recreated the facility as the wall configuretion didnt even match. This set arguably be a Science Lab. But why scan Deanna in a lab and not sickbay?



Denatra

They missed out another member of The Next Generation Here. I would have rather seen Sela Yar at the helm of the Valdore than some new Romulan Character. It would be interesting to see - even if she was part of the council at the begining or replaced the Romulan Commander that Shinzon wanted to use to test her loyalty

Oh, and Romulans are anything but seductive romances. They are devious and cunning and I cannot see a Romulan female asking for sex basically with a human clone in the romulan senate room


La'Forge's Eyes

In Insurrection. La-Forge's optic nerves regenerate and he has his site returned, There was no reference to him loosing his sight again or anything so I would have left him with his natural eyes rather than his visor


Romulus

For the centerstage of the Romulan fleet. It was badly protected. The Enterprise was in orbit and not one unlike Deep Space Nine, were there any ships or defences in place. I'd love to have seen a shipyard or a starbase or even a small fleet of D'Deradex warbirds orbiting the planet



Noxerian Class[/I}

Though they look very Romulan. I think one and a Romulan Warbird would have been nice as the Warbird and the Scimitar would be near equal size and matched firepower as Picard in "The Defector" I think it is travels into Romulan space and states that the attack on the Enterprise-D was a "Tap on the shoulder". There were 2 of them, but to say that would emply a Romulan Warbird has sufficient firepower to destroy a Galaxy Class. Hell if a 25 year old Bird of Prey can (After if fights the Borg, The Klingons, the Romulans, et au) - well enuff said. I would have replaced the BOP with something a little more intimidating as The BOP is too overused



Data

Data's Sacrifce enabled him to connect again to humanity with that he sacrifices himself to save another so it was nice. But I dunno about it. If another TNG movie arrives. I don't want B-4 becoming another Data





:)


Ad'
Image

Wok
Cadet 2nd Year
Cadet 2nd Year
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:00 am
Contact:

Post by Wok » Wed May 05, 2004 9:09 pm

1. DS9 was okay and Voyager was great
um.

Why was DS9 just ok?

Voyager was great? Why? Most things in it were abit far fetched. There was a number of good, well written episodes with dual stories, like the 24thCenturay Borg one, and other generally entertaining ones (Prometheus anyone?) but it had the taste of 'Been there, done that' to it alot.

Not bad, but compared to TOS/TNG that also featured episodic formats? Well...
2. Nemesis was the worst of the movie series, I agree with TrashMan.
Again, if you don't mind me asking, why?

3. First Contact was with the Borg, of course it's going to be spooky, the Borg always gave me that feeling when I was a little kid.
And if we were going to accuse any film of no originality...
FC is my favourite, but its so similar to films like Alien/Aliens

4. More people today are about action and killing than a good plot or story like Shatner's films and Stewart's earlier films.
5. Even Patrick Stewart didn't like how he played in Nemesis, he said that he knew that Picard wasn't like the one in Nemesis.
6. For some reason when I think about Ds9 I think of Sisko with two phaser rifles in his hands, going psycho by blasting everything in sight. That's the impression it left off of me, (or maybe I play a little too much Metroid Fusion, damn SA-X...)
Yeah, I agree alot with that.




For Example, I felt that most of the story was taken from the Wrath of Khan. Picard being kirk and Data being Spock(Especially with the way they left it at the end). And the Thalaron being the new Genesis. With Shinzon being the new Khan.
Yes, but its really just a formula. Shinzon/Khan/Queen/Soran/Chang... all the same (pun not intended) type of nemesis. Abit mad, clever, egotistical or predicatable.

But overall i think Nemesis' weak point was its director, Stuart Baird. Big mistake. Anyone who has the DVD will know from his directors commentry that be knows nothing about trek. He spent more time talking about Luke skywalker and starwars. He completely forgets Michael Dorns name in the Argo scene. To me that completely disrespects the brand. John Frakes would have done a better job, they only punished him because Insurrection was a failure(Because of the poop story i might add).
True, I think.
It was not Frakes's fault really. He isn't an egoist so I would have liked to have seen him direct number X. Blame Paramount for that...

The best way to save the brand is to use the former trek stars who want to help the brand. John Frakes, Levar Burton, Robert Duncan McNeil, Roxan Dawson, etc. These are people who know how the brand works, know what hte fans want and can see Roddenberrys vision of trek.

Its a bloody shame because Rick Berman has run the brand into the ground and will kill the next film.
Damn right. Alot of c*ck-ups are caused by the Franchising of the series. :(
Don't lay ALL the blame on Berman. Remember that Gene did choose him as the heir.
I want to go back to Rodenberries vision myself, too.

Blame Paramount's 'market researchers' if anyone...
All they give a f**k about is profit... profit... and, you guessed it, Profit.

Like you all say, its being run into the ground for... PROFIT.

(Sorry Phantom, i'm tired of typing. But I agree with most of what you say, except I think some things are forgivable... for a Trek film :wink: )

TrashMan
Cadet 4th Year
Cadet 4th Year
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:00 am
Location: Behind you, clocked, playing with the fire button
Contact:

Post by TrashMan » Thu May 06, 2004 2:42 am

I stand behind everything I said....
On a request from a friend of mine I'm writing a column about Star Trek and I took it very seriously... I consulted many people, even some physicists and biologists and read trough lots of material. I tried to analyze the whole Star Trek on as many ways as possible.

The conclusions are actually pretty obvious. If I wanted, I could support all of my claims with TONS and TONS of proof, but I have no desire to write an essay now...
Maby I'll put in a link to that column once I'm done....
USS Apocalypse
*I let my Phaser Cannon do the talking!*

Cpt_Geddes
Cadet 4th Year
Cadet 4th Year
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 2:00 am
Location: Some where in the universe

Post by Cpt_Geddes » Thu May 06, 2004 4:14 am

had another thought, what if Janeway took command of the Enterprise E? She could get her old crew back, possibly even get demoted to captain.
Janeway being in command of the E-E. NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! and NO!

If that ever happened I would never watch Star Trek again. Voyager has finished, get over it. You can dream of this happening but thats all it'll ever be, a dream.

I'm am disappointed that there were no D'Deridex's in Nemesis. I like the way the Norexans arrived to help the Enterprise, I'd rather see the D'Deridex just flying past in the background over Romulus. I think Nemesis was a good way to end the TNG era as the crew have split up and the feds will finally have peace with the rommies. It would have been better to see the scene where it shows the new first officer of the E-E and Picard says "To boldly go where no man has gone before" then the TNG theme comes as the E-E flys past at the end of the film instead of a deleted scene, but ah well. I think Nemesis was aimed for the casual Trek fan. My friends liked the film and they don't even like Trek.
On a request from a friend of mine I'm writing a column about Star Trek and I took it very seriously... I consulted many people, even some physicists and biologists and read trough lots of material. I tried to analyze the whole Star Trek on as many ways as possible.
Its only a TV show, don't take it so seriously.

odyssey
Ensign
Ensign
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:00 am
Location: New York

Post by odyssey » Thu May 06, 2004 6:12 am

I never thought Nemesis was that bad a movie. I like the look of a professional director... looks and runs better than a TV director is which Frakes is really is. Yeah, the plot and story are painfully familiar... what happen to the motif of going where no one has gone before?

Like I always believe.. they need to make drastic changes beginning from the top at Paramount to the exec producers Berman and Braga. Sad to say is they've run their course or ideas. The brand has become stale and needs new blood to prevent this bleeding to become fatal. Believe me, they are people out there just as capable to turning around this franchise like the people from the movies...i.e. Bennett , Myer, Nimoy..etc., They are not irreplaceable.

As for DS9 compare to B5... I think B5 is waaaaaaay overrated and how do we know DS9 rips off B5 in terms of plot and not the other way around? The B5 producer always had a lot of negative things to say about the St franchise from the start. This guy definitely has a beef against ST for some reason.

User avatar
xxxxx
Cadet 2nd Year
Cadet 2nd Year
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 2:00 am

Post by xxxxx » Thu May 06, 2004 8:33 am

Actually i read a book which had interviews with different sci fi writers, one was Michael J stratzinski, and he talks about B5 and ds9, and the pain of always being in the shadow of trek. Its a good interview because he talks about his reaction of finding out that there was going to be a trek series set on a station, and to premiere before his new series would. DS9 was well beter that B5.

As for Nemesis, I wished that they finished it more like the undiscovered country. I wish that they would make another undiscovered country like movie with the Romulans. It would just make it more complete. But i think that everyone accepts that it will NEVER happen. Damn.

TrashMan
Cadet 4th Year
Cadet 4th Year
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:00 am
Location: Behind you, clocked, playing with the fire button
Contact:

Post by TrashMan » Thu May 06, 2004 9:07 pm

DS9 better than B5? Since when?

Ok..about my previous post...I just recalled that I wrote that column on Croatian, so putting the link would be useless, so I'll try and give a VERY short review of what I wrote...
I first wrote about impossible things in Star Trek (after consulting books and some people, including dr.sc.mr. Puljak(ST fan), one of the heads of the antimatter containment project at CERN, the greatest particle accelerator in the world..)
1. Shields are possible, but they would be one bubble, not devided into quadrants, and one shields could only protect from one type of energy
2. Transporters are impossible
3. Very primitive replicators may be possible
4. Energy life forms, shapechangers and mind-controling parasites are impossible
5. Time travel (especially with a SINGLE time line)
6. Communicators are impossible
And some other stuff I can't remember now...

Next, I went on with logical analisys (science aside) and then onto analayzing specific series and movies.

As I said, I can support all my claims with scientific proof and examples.

As for the shows...all had flaws...All had their moments..
I don't say DS9 or VOY sucked becoause I hate them..I say that becouse with all things considered, I simply can't come to another conclusion...

the thning that bugs me the most about those two shows is how they went on creating logical and plot hoes and defiled the original ST universe.
DS9 did a great job with the Ferengi (A+ work on that), I liked the station, I liked the Defiant...
They totaly masacred the Klingons..
From a Honorable race of warriors they turned into weaklings uncapable of doing even the slightest things right... First DS9 repels their attack on DS9 so easily and the Federation officers kick thier butts in close combat (even tough Klingons are supposed to train from the moment they can hold a dagger, even tough they are supposed to be phisicly stronger and more durable). And than one can see Sisko (terrible acting..or should I say, overacting) or even Quark pushing a Klingons Bat'Leth aside and blocking their attacks as tough they are of equal strenght...
Allso, the Klingons are incapable of even placing a mind field without screwing up, they take no safety precautions when carding the mne codes, they don't even change the codes when the y notice they were stolen. They don't preform no security tests when guarding Gowron in the most fortified Klingon installations, and they act with allmost no honour...
Not to mention that in DS9 they say that klingons didn't allways look like that - like Worf (the Episode with the god-knows-what time travel in a row, where they go to save Kirk), but were changed, when we know that in the Original series they looked like that becouase they didn't have good make up and masks (in movies they had). Not to mention that they could have avoided showing the "old" klingons in that show, since it wasn't important for the plot...Allso, they said that Kirk was a temporal menace (17 violations), when in the series and the movies he time traveled only twice.
(i use ONLY since the DS9 and VOY crew tend to it a LOT..allways on another way..allways to some important moment in history...)
I could go on about DS9 and VOY like this forever..the evidence is more than conclusive..
Gene must be turning in his grave like a merry-go-round...

Like I said..they both had their moments and good ideas, but overall....suck-o-rama...
USS Apocalypse
*I let my Phaser Cannon do the talking!*

Phantom
Past Administrator
Past Administrator
Posts: 1704
Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 2:00 am

Post by Phantom » Thu May 06, 2004 10:02 pm

1. Shields are possible, but they would be one bubble, not devided into quadrants, and one shields could only protect from one type of energy
2. Transporters are impossible
3. Very primitive replicators may be possible
4. Energy life forms, shapechangers and mind-controling parasites are impossible
5. Time travel (especially with a SINGLE time line)
6. Communicators are impossible
[/quote]

1. A shield is simply a barrier of Energy depending on the energy modulation the shield could withstand whatever energy it was thrown at. This wouldnt protect from solid masses though, only energy beams

2. Scientists at the end of the 1900's I think it was 99 were able to transport light from one room to another. To transport a human. the computer power and nuclear power required would be extreme. The computer would have to know the co-ordinates of every atom in your body to comile you again

3. Not a lot I can say

4. Who knows what is out there. There could be polymometic alloys in the form of sentient beings, Impossible is a word humans use far to often

5. Time travel may exist but we'd be unaware of it

6. Communicators are possible. Hospitals are testing them. And look at Mobile Phones (Cell Phones) they are getting so small now-a-days that they could pass as a communicator



Adam
Image

Wok
Cadet 2nd Year
Cadet 2nd Year
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:00 am
Contact:

Post by Wok » Fri May 07, 2004 1:57 am

DS9 was well beter that B5.
As for DS9 compare to B5... I think B5 is waaaaaaay overrated and how do we know DS9 rips off B5 in terms of plot and not the other way around? The B5 producer always had a lot of negative things to say about the St franchise from the start. This guy definitely has a beef against ST for some reason.
Urk. Don't even get me started on a B5 Vs DS9 rant... lol. Lets just say the B5 idea was created years before (1989?), then shown around various companies. Paramount may have been one.
JMS is always is pissed off at ST... so fill in the blanks.

Its no coincidence that DS9 is SO similar.

Back on topic. Or off.




the thning that bugs me the most about those two shows is how they went on creating logical and plot hoes and defiled the original ST universe.
DS9 did a great job with the Ferengi (A+ work on that), I liked the station, I liked the Defiant...
They totaly masacred the Klingons..
Thats uber-true. Especially we they 'invade' DS9. The ferengi where kinda comic relief. But I though they were portrayed well, regardless.


Gene must be turning in his grave like a merry-go-round...
He's spinning in it. Gene is spinning!
Like I said..they both had their moments and good ideas, but overall....suck-o-rama...
Yup. But i'm more leniant. :wink:

MajorPayne
Past Administrator
Past Administrator
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 2:00 am

Post by MajorPayne » Fri May 07, 2004 3:24 am

Time to stamp a foot down on this.

This thread is being moved to debates considering that its fast turning into one. Also if this, currently, minor arguement does get any worse it'll be locked.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users