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Do you believe in UFOS?

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:30 pm
by odyssey
Just recently here in the US, a major network (ABC) broadcasted a special on UFOs. I didn't give much thought until they showed clips from Star Trek regarding the concept of warp speed and other possible theories on Alien technology and how they travel to earth. Thus, the genesis of this topic. Since Trekkies, Trekkers or just ST fans are more open minded about these things than most I purpose these Qs...

Are UFO's real or figments of an over active imagination?

Have anyone personally actually seen a UFO?

What are they like? Are they like us? have pointy ears?

Where are they from?

What's with the reports on abductions and experiments (alien/human hybrids :? ) on humans? Do they have moral boundaries?

Are they friendly or do they have a hidden and sinister (ID4) agenda?

Are they simply government experiments or are they involved in coverups (Roswell) of potential First Contact?

What of the technology these Aliens use to get here? Warp seed? Wormhole?

What are the possible repurcusions social, religiously and polictically if is revealed aliens has landed and maded contact with government leaders?

The Qs can get on and on. After you are done laughing :) ,I like to have a serious and open minded debate and discussion on this subject and perhaps contrast that with how ST interperts and precieves Alien life, culture and technology.

The floor is now open.... :wink:

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:44 pm
by blindeye01
I read Communion by Whitley Strieber the other day. I must say, he's either the most coherent psycho I've ever heard of, or something that is truly wierd is going on, be it a mental or physical phenomena.

I honestly want to see the evidence. There was a story from 1897 in Aurora, Texas that an "airship" crashed, and the occupant was buried in the cemetary. Yet no one has found the grave, and the tombstone "disappeared." Or the story of the 1897 "Airship" that cut the line to its "anchor" which was caught on a railroad track. Where is the anchor which was left behind?

I have to attribute this to probably really advanced government projects and unknown mental phenomena. However, I wish I could believe these amazing stories.

I know that it is statistically next to impossible that we are on the only inhabited planet. There must be life out there. Still, its a cold day in hell when these beings can traverse the expanses of space effectively - flying in the face of all known physics.

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:52 pm
by odyssey
Whitley Strieber... haven't read any of his books...isn't he one of those new age or commune believers or something along that line? Could explain some of his writings? :)

I've heard of the "alleged" Aurora incident, but the evidence is so lacking that you have to take that tale with a grain of salt.

It would be simply arrogant to believe we are the only intelligent and technically advance life there is in the universe. I believe there is something to SOME of the reported UFO phenomenas and theories over periods that may go back to the dawn of man. If mankind is so curious about the world and the universe around him that would make him go out there and explore the unknown, what's to say the same about intelligent lifeforms out there coming here to doing the exact same thing?

On the subject of travelling the vast expanse of space... in the tv program, warp speed used in ST is a sort of way very primitive in comparsion to the speculation and theories of the possible use of... wormholes. Wormholes actually do exist... in theory since no one has ever seen one... except in ST:DS9 :) Wormholes according to them is so much more powerful and efficent than the warp theory in which the ability to control and convert the energies of the very universe itself is beyond even our minds to comprehend. You are talking about omnipotent technology or God-like ablities to bend and fold the frabics of space itself at a whim. A doorway from one galaxy to another travelling countless trillions of miles or kilometers with a single step or even centimeter. It's all in realm of possiblility and perhaps millions of years beyond our ability to even imagine and understand. Like a piece of paper folded in 2 , poke a hole through and walk right through and you're there in no time flat. Science , not fiction like in ST supports this theory (which doesn't seem to defy the laws of faster than lightspeed) more so than the concept of warp speed (which does) .

Travelling such vast distances is possible... only in theory. :wink:

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:38 pm
by CaptSyf
Ok...I like this thread.

I have seen a UFO, so yes, I have to say yes, I do beleive in UFOs. BUT... Let's look at the meaning of UFO. It simply means Un-Identified FLying Object. I'm not going to say it was an E.T. or anything remotely close to that. I would say it was a military craft of some kind. Here's the details.

It was about 4:00 am on a late october night in 2002. I w\as up, out looking at the stars (I do this to clear my thoughts so to speak). Then off in the distance to the west of me, there was an object flying directly over I-35 (I live in oklahoma). It had a handful of globe "lights" on the bottom, making a shape of a V. Now it may not have ben directly over the interstate, as it was hard to tell exactly. I am 2 miles from the interstate, and at night, it is hard to calculate distance. The craft, whatever it was, was flying a path exactly between the 2 local air force bases. Those bases are located to the southwest (50 miles), and the northeast (85 miles). The interesting thing is it was a very quiet night, and I could hear the cars on the interstate pass by (for those that have never been out to the country, yes you can actually hear things that far away). But, I watched this thing for about 45 seconds, and never heard any sound out of it. When I first spotted it, it looked like it was making a dive-bomber run, but then it leveled off about 50-80 feet. At that point it was going slow, as slow as a car in town. then after several seconds, it quickly sped up to proper aircraft like speeds, and was gone, in the direction of the base to the northeast.

What do I think it was: A top secret military aircraft with capablities unlike anything else. I'd say they were most likely doing a test flight, and nearly lost it (hence the dive-bomber look), but the pilot was able to bring it out of the "would be" crash, and after checking his systems over, decided to return to base. No, I am not crazy, I did see that.

Now, I do beleive that the math speaks for itself when deciding if there is life out there past our planet... yes, the math suggests. Has it visited earth, it could have, but until I see an E.T., I am going to say that they have NOT been to earth. Now when the day comes, we best pray that they are not more advanced than us, at least not in the weapons field. Most likely, based on looking at ALL the different species on earth, if they are, we are dead meat. Every species on earth is agressive to lesser lifeforms, save for the ones that "serve" the higher forms of life (like those fish that "clean" sharks). If E.T. comes, and thinks for a second that they can enslave/conquer/destroy us, we as a species will have a fight on our hands (just like in ID4). If we go to the stars first, most likely any races man finds will try to make them "servants", or destroy them. Either way, war will be the outcome.

Well, that's all for now.

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:30 pm
by Elrond
If they are more advanced than us, my thought is that they would not see us as a threat but instead would want to study us just as we study lesser lifeforms on Earth (tigers, sharks, lions, bears, bugs, bacteria, etc). I think that way because if I was a commander of a space vessel and saw a planet with life on it, I would be so thrilled - just encountering new life would make my day. I'd be talking to the aliens on the planet and I'd be like - "hey, lucky you guys were here - until I found you dudes, there was nothin' out there!" And they'd say, "k?" They would look at each other like, "what the hell's he talkin' about!" And then I would introduce some of the customs of Earth to them - like beer and whiskey, football and nachos - and Star Trek! LOL! I would like to think that by the end of the day, all of us aliens and humans would be sitting around, learning each others' languages and watching Star Trek while having a coo' beer and eating some nachos! LOL!

At least, that's how I'd like to think. It would be terrible to think that most life out there more advanced than us would advance to the point that they don't have any emotions or have value for life.

I don't think extraterrestrial life has visited this planet before either - it could have, but the odds are against it, given the pure distances involved in space travel. Take this for instance: you start a quest with the goal to find new life and new civilizations. You start from a spacedock orbitting Earth. Your maximum speed is Warp 9 (what, about 1200 times the speed of light). Now, you set your ship on a course in a straight line, pointed at a random spot of light in the sky. You go and go and go and go and go - at 1200 times the speed of light. You travel 1200 light years in one year - there, you've gotten out to near the Orion Nebula's distance (I think). That's not too far - seeing as this galaxy is about 100,000 light years in diameter - and this is after a year - assuming your engines can sustain Warp 9 for a year without crystalline regeneration and a spacedock visit.

Have you found any life? Better question: how many systems have you passed by that had planets around them? Perhaps 5, maybe 10. How many of these planets had life - impossible to say, but probably none of them - most likely, they are J-Class planets that are perhaps 8 times the diameter and mass of Jupiter, either that or small tiny rocky worlds with little atmospheres because their star's luminal intensity is too high. An even better question - how many G2-type stars like the Sun have you seen in this 1200 light year journey? Probably 1 or 2. How many of those have planets? Perhaps 1 or none. You see, most stars are higher intensity than our sun - anything like that would have stellar debris filling the system - either that or the solar radiation would be tremendous. Keep this in mind: if our sun decreased or increased its intensity by just 0.25 percent, most life on Earth would be destroyed - if it did so by a factor of 1 percent, all life would be destroyed - from land to the abyss of the sea. And that factors out any other possible life.

Now, it could be possible to have a planet surrounding a bright luminous star that may have life on it - but the distance must be right - and the planet's place in the system must give the planet stable environmental conditions and just the right conditions for there to be a climate and weather patterns. The size of the planet must be just right as well, and a satellite such as our moon is would not hurt either - it would keep the planet's orbit stable. Also, a life-supporting planet in the wrong part of the galaxy would mean that it would not support life to begin with. Nearer the center of the galaxy, radiation is intense - gamma ray bursts (GRB's) are very likely to occur before any life has the chance to advance. So this leaves only 1/3 of the way from the center of the galaxy and beyond. But that still leaves 150 billion stars!!!

Now, I am not saying there isn't life out there - there must be. But to find it, we can't just send one ship to find it - even if we had ships that could go warp 9, we would only be able to scan a certain distance while we are at warp and would only cover an infinitesimal portion of the galaxy within a year or even a thousand years. We would need to have maybe, I'd say, a hundred ships that are sent out in multiple directions. Then our hopes of finding life within a 20 to 50 year mission is very likely. But space is vast - and it seems like we could just step out onto the galactic plane and find it at any point of life, but then you have to scan that entire area - and doing so takes a very long time. This is what having three physical dimensions causes us - a big headache in finding life. We move to one star, then we have to search everywhere within that volume of space.

We will find life one day if humanity survives the next thousand years or so. Either they will find us or we will find it - but they will likely find us first, since 99% of all intelligent life out there (assuming it exists) is most likely more advanced than us since they had more time to advance.

However, just recently, an orbiting satellite detected a gamma ray burst that probably took out any life on any planet within the angle of its burst. That is quite disturbing - of course, there may have been no planets, at least with life on them, within that burst range - but there could have been - that may have subtracted one or two races from this galaxy. At this time somewhere in the universe (which has 100's of billions of galaxies), I'm sure there's an interstellar or intergalactic war occuring somewhere or a first contact mission going forward. It's amazing how much there is out there - I'd say humanity has such a long way to go that we are not meant to remain here on this world. Mankind was meant to explore - and space is exploration at its greatest! It is a journey without end and I think I speak for all of us when I say, hopefully I will get a chance to see space someday for myself!

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:44 am
by blindeye01
Whitley Strieber is not a nut. Although I still don't believe his story, he still has not even bought into the absolute possibility that it is aliens. He used to be a non-fiction writer (politics, environment). He has no following that I know of.

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:30 am
by CaptSyf
Well, at least no one has called me crazy (yet)!. This is the kind of topics one would expect to find on a Star Trek forum. Way to go!

I would like to believe that any advanced life "out there" would be non-hostile towards us when they first encounter us. But, even if they are friendly...What about the earth governments, most of them would not understand the concept that we are not alone, and attack the aliens. The most advanced countries like the U.S.A, Russia, China, and the U.K. would most likely want to get their hands on the technology at all costs. That cost would spell Lying, cheating and or stealing it, hence an intergalactic war would start. The other countries like Iran, North Korea, and so on, would either fear them, fear one of the more advanced countries getting friendly with the aliens, or just go insane because it makes their religion a liar, crushing all that they believe. So, they would want to destroy those aliens at any cost, hence again we come to the conclusion of war.

Now, all this can be prevented, if the world becomes one, and learns respect. Respect for themselve, their neighbor, their allies, and all of the planet in general. If we can become a civilization ingrossed in science, and the overall goal of most everyone is that is self improvement (not to be confused with self indulgence, also known as selfishness). If we as a race come to the point were we have learned to except ourselves and each other as a general way of life here on earth... then we would be ready to encounter extra-terrestrials. But first we have to get past fighting between ourselves over stupid stuff. No more Terrorists, no more racial or ethnic hatred, no more greed! These are the measures that we as a race must meet, and exceed, before we don't have to fear war with ANY other race. And if we reach that point, then even if E.T. wants a fight, we'll be ready!

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:05 pm
by blindeye01
Here's a really freaky ufo video:

On, but I've seen this before as well.

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:23 pm
by odyssey
@CaptSyf... It's a shame you didn't take any pictures or film of your UFO sighting. It's not all surprising since UFOs sightings are more common in suburban and country sides than over major metro cities. Though it's comforting to know - if this was indeed a top secret military test -that the US government is experimenting with new technology to protect us from potential enemies foreign... and possibly alien. :wink:
Though, you've gotta ask ... where did they get this technology from? Certainly, not from the normal R&D since most military UFOs do things that nothing are earth are capable or dream of doing. Perhaps, as the result of recovered alien tech? Exchange agreements to allow alien activity?

Both you and Elrond think in confrontational terms (not surprising since both of you such ardent Republicans :P ) WHEN - not if - the time of first contact comes. That is the last thing we would want to show. In any conflict with a alien intelligence with technologies (100s , 1000s, perhaps millions of years ahead of us) that can allow them to travel through such vast distances, time and even dimensions... we WILL lose.

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:42 pm
by odyssey
Regarding the UFO video... seems like a secret military craft to me. Judging by the vapor trail it leaves behind.

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:22 pm
by CaptSyf
I think it's a good haox video is all.

As far as me being a republican, that has nothing to do with how I view science. My political alignment is limited because of the way this country is setup. I would have registered as an other, but then I could not vote during primary elections. I vote for the person, not because a person is republican. In the last election, if I was that way, I would never have voted for a democrat in the local state elections. But in fact, I voted for a democrat in the local county elections. So, let's leave politic out of this, please.

Yes, it is a shame I did not have a camera on hand. But then again, I wouldn't want to be one of the true UFO sighters that get dismissed and disgraced in the public eye, because the military doesn't want to admit it has advanced aircraft yet. How many people did they say were nut jobs, when people started coming forward about sightings of a aircraft shaped like a boomerang. Then , years later, you have the US government unveiling to the world, the B-2 bomber. If that isn't a boomerang shape aircraft, then I'm not sure what is.

As for where did we get advanced aircraft, I don't think we had any help. The US military has been for the last 3 decades been experimenting with electro-magnetic fields. Both research in energy displacement and field control are top goals. within the next 20 years, our aircraft and ships very well may be protected by "shields" just like in star trek. That is current reseach. I believe they have advanced well into the testing stage. Science is where they get it from, but science fiction is where the scientists got the ideas from. Basically, when the mircowave, nuke, and other things came about, there were also side effects to these technologies. they dicovered these where electro-magnetic in nature. over the years since those technologies where invented, research has gone from figuring out what causes the side effects, to the point of making practical use of those newly discovered sciences. Sorry to say, E.T. did not help us in anyway.

As for my views of what would happen "when" we encounter E.T.s, I am basing my ideas on the sciences of life as we know it. Yes, I believe we would end up in war with them. Only because of either our stupidity, or because of nature's law, survival of the fittest. Personally, I hope I am outright wrong, but, that is where I draw the line at. I believe it is best to expect the worst, but hope for the best. And as the theory of relativity, for every action, is an equal reaction. So, science is what I believe in in this matter.

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:26 pm
by blindeye01
I saw a video from the 80's about ufos. I saw it as a joke, because it had "startling new evidence". All the pics were of B2's and F-117's, which they said were all similar looking ufos, probably increasing their anticipation of first contact or some bs. LAughed my butt off

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:27 am
by odyssey
CaptSyf... It was not my intention to inject politics in this discussion, but rather my attempt at a little humor. I apologized if my comment was misconstrued as something else. :?

Blindeye01... if you want something to laugh your butt off , did anyone see that program on FOX called "Alien Autopsy" a few years back. The minute you saw the quality of the film , you knew it was a fake. The worst part about that was old Captain Riker himself Jonathan Frakes was part of such a farce. IT was such an insult to our intelligence that we should never ever let him live it down. It was a embrassment to Trek fans and a blow to the serious minded scientific community who investigate this phenomenon.

Though it does raise the question ... what would these lifeforms look like when we encounter them? Will they look like something out of ST or even SWs... as unrealistic as it seems? Will they be hummaniod in appearance? Bipedal? Perhaps even human looking?

Though the trend from most accounts of close encounter of the third kind seems to favor the "grey" types. Typically they would have large heads (probably due to their enlarge brains... which dictates vast intelligence? :idea: ) , big eyes , skinny willowy bodies, short in stature, telepathic in some cases and sheath the need for any uniform or clothing. Perhaps they may have look alot like us millions of years ago. Human looking beings that has evolved over hundreds perhaps thousands of years. Who knows? This could outrage creationists , but...modern man has evolved and may still continue to evolved to point where we might end up looking alot like these greys. One can never know about what mother nature may have in store on the evolutionary destiny of every living species.

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:46 am
by Elrond
I didn't mean to inject any confrontational matter to the subject - just stating that there probably is life out there, though it isn't proven. Science (actually, the rules of probability) may indicate that there is life out there - and it is quite abundant. The vast distances in space to traverse to fly around in circles for thousands of years indicates that it will be hard to find, no doubt. Going around this planet is at this time in the world a great thing - when the space shuttle goes back up, which I hope it does, it will rekindle some of my hope in the space program.

But I do agree with CaptSyf - we should expect the worse if an advanced race visits us. But, as we all have the capability of doing, we must hope for the best. In a way, I sort of, like Will Smith said on Independence Day, "they wouldn't have travelled 90 billion light years to come out here and start a fight." Of course, they did, but that was a movie. No one can be sure what First Contact would be like - it will probably be an event that falls in fortune between First Contact and Independence Day.

One thing I couldn't imagine is humans evolving to the creapy looking aliens that we envision when we think of aliens. But I guess when that time comes in millions of years (if humanity survives that long), humanity will have accepted their new appearance because this appearance will change ever so slowly over a very long time. Indeed, some animals on Earth would probably think we look kind of strange and perhaps creepy - and so would aliens from other worlds. Some of them may find us repulsive in appearance. Like Lursa said on Star Trek Generations, "human females are so repulsive." And I'm thinking at the same time that Klingon females are repulsive as well! LOL! It's all perspective - for another example, humanity would envision an alien invasion as a nightmare while the aliens attacking would obviously love it!

I think that before aliens come here that we will have to first worry about the task of stopping the wars on this planet - but I won't get into that for obvious reason - LOL!

But I like this thread a lot! You guys are really bringing up a lot of interesting stuff on UFOs and Aliens!

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:36 am
by EAS_Intrepid
I see aliens everytime I go to school!

In fact, I think there is someone who wants to play his game with us on earth. In 1991 more than 1000, in words onethousand belgian people saw UFOs (the triangled ones, with three lights on the bottom) One was even over the NATO-headquarter for the european forces. NATO jets (F-16C Fighting Falcon of the belgian Air Force) started to intercept. The object "warped" away (four times faster than any man-made plane)
Things happen, even beneath the surface of the seas.