American beheaded in Iraq

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Numbazix
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Post by Numbazix » Thu May 20, 2004 8:22 am

Unless something is done, and fairly quickly, Iraq will become this generations' Viet-Nam. There are several reasons this war should end quickly. The American people will not tolerate a protracted war with a steady stream of casualties. The shift in world opinion make it imperative to disengage quickly. It's not worth sinking the world's economy (quite simply we can't afford it.). This should have been a united effort under the auspices of the United Nations.

There are always abuses in war on every side. I'm certain far worse will come to light before this thing is over. As the frustrations built up in Viet-Nam the abuses on the part of ALL combatents increased. I see a familiar pattern here and dread the outcome.
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Post by iOSYS » Thu May 20, 2004 8:47 pm

I dont mean to offend anyone but I really dislike bush for all these "wars" he has been starting (okay it's only 2 but thats still to many). Besides the word war in not apropreate to describe whats happening, I would define whats happening as more of an invasion or attack, america kinda skipped the whole, attack, counter attack, declaration of war, open warfare, and went streight to invasion. I mean if there is a war where not even one iraqi shot hits american soil, than its not a war. but I have trouble trying to substatute the word war with something else. About the decapitation, it is horribal, death of any kind is horribal, but why is getting your head removed any worse than getting shot or stabbed, you still die in the end. And its not like the Americans are bieng little angels in iraq right now either(not trying to say it was okay for them to decapitate that man becouse some soldures are bieng jerks, just pointing out that both sides are commiting horribal acts), the kinds of things that they are doing to some iraqi people are in my opinion unacceptable. as for provocation and effectiveness, these wars are so far pretty pointless,I mean yes the invasion of afganistan was succesful but Bin Laden was never found. the war in iraq is getting more vile by the second, yes saddam was found but whatever happened to those weapons of mass destruction that started this war? except for territorial expansion, no matter how good hearted these wars where intended to be (saving americans from weapons of mass destruction, freedome for the iraq and afgani people, destruction of al-quida, etc...) these wars have been a large wast of resources and life.

these are just the thaughts and opinions swirling around in my stange mind but they make sense to me. I hope that the views I expressed did not offend any people who are pro bush, war, etc.

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Post by Twitch » Fri May 21, 2004 1:18 am

During WW II the Japanese beheaded American pilots captured, filmed it and it somehow got into US hands. A P-38 pilot I know told me his buddies simply made an unwritten vow to never let a Jap pilot get out of his plane. As he said, " I always aimed for the cockpit." None of his victims baled out. Of course if the Amis were to be especially brutal in any clashes with the insurgents in Iraq now that would be blasted as being politically incorrect. Obviously the Ami forces are being more restrained or the media would be on it like stink on shoot.

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Post by Elrond » Sat May 22, 2004 1:40 pm

I'd hate to sound partizan on the media, but our soldiers are definitely restrained and it's costing more lives than otherwise would happen. It's far too easy now for everything to instantly become politically correct - especially if it supports national pride!!! If we are to be in Iraq and not withdraw, then the military must be more aggressive towards its goals. It seems that sitting around and waiting for a battle isn't going to cut it now. No matter what happens now, unfortunately we are stuck in this conflict for the time being. As I've said for a long time, there's no decision now that could be made politically that will come without a heavy compromise (in other words, no one regardless of political party can really do anything decisive and right at this point). Withdrawing the troops is no 'undo' button that will be certain to stop the war nor does it appear that keeping them there will be any better. No real political decision could solve this "Mess'o'potamia." Basically, the only decisions that would be close to sound decisions would be decisions based on logic instead of pride or anger! Unfortunately, there's no clear-cut piece of logic in ending this mess! The media are damaging the war cause and making the US look like poop while our leaders are making decisions based upon pride and the 'eye-for-an-eye' logic. Not a pretty scene, and that scene gets a lot uglier everyday the more everyone finds out something new about all this. That's why I can't stand to watch the news anymore because that's all I hear about anymore. The less I know, the better off I may be! :)

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Post by Twitch » Wed May 26, 2004 1:32 am

The media distorts and spins things so much it's sick. And they joked about how Pravda in Moscow was all bullshit. It's all about ratings and market share. When they cover a topic it's all about how riveting and shocking its will be to the viewer in hopes he will stay tuned and watch the friggin commercials. All these yokels have dreams of being Walter Cronkite newsmen too and they put all this guesswork and supposition in their reports that has more fantasy that Star Trek half the time.

The news media in general is "all bullshit all the time." They need to put them all up in in a hotel and open the bar then give them video and info from military reporters. Remember the dash across Iraq in the beginning? All we heard was a collective "are we there yet?" from media. Nothing is fast enough for them. We roll across a whole country and subdue it in 2 weeks and is isn't fast enough. They kept using phrases like bogged down back then so that by now we've have been conditioned to believe that.

If a modern nation no longer wants to accept casualties of war they should not send expiditionery forces abroad. poop, in any given few seconds of World War 2 more individuals both military and civilian were killed than in this whole shootin' match so far. While after my in-country camping trips with the Marines in 1969-70 I'm as much against war as anyone, I know that if you're gonna sling some shoot you're gonna get some on ya!

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Post by Elrond » Wed May 26, 2004 2:54 am

That's for sure! Compared to the amount of shoot we got on us in WWII, this war in no way compares! Much of the media is not concerned at all with the wars of men, only their own 'scoop.' They will be the ones to stand in the middle of a battle to film it, as long as they knew that they had no part in it! The world is now so separated that people in America are more against their own people than they are against those who seek to harm them. We can see very well how the media has pitted America against America! In WWII, we lost so much but still we were proud as a country to see our people fight for our country, despite the certain death they would be facing. Today, if we were facing anywhere near the same casualties, the people in America would be going insane, quite literally! WWII was also a fight against terror - in a different form, a much larger and deliberate form. This war with terror is different in method but is also different in its shear scale! The casualties that we have taken in this war, though small compared to WWII in just seconds, have been for stupid reasons - our troops sitting around and waiting to get shot or blown up! A direct attack would most likely take many lives, but if we're going to have this large force in Iraq, we must be willing to use it to its utter defeat if that's what must happen. I agree, if this nation was not intent on taking abuse and many casualties, it should have just sent a smaller expeditionary force. However, in doing so, I truly think that we would still eventually need to send what we sent - a big force! It's hard to accept for most people that we have taken 800 losses, but I can almost guarantee that this war is not over and it will get even tougher, especially with the media lowering our morale, making us think that the world is coming to an end. The media, in some forms, is very manipulative and can make anyone believe that the human cause is failing! They never show what comes out of these fights - they should wait until the end of the war to evaluate it, because by no measure is it all over yet! The enemy still has strength to gather and send - there is no denying this - they will attack us whether or not we attack them! War is terrible, yes - but at any scale, defense is priority. If our government wasn't willing to go to war, as we agree, they should not have placed war as a priority. Either way there will be losses - either by a surprise 9/11-type attack which we had no idea was going to happen (well, some people in the government knew, we must think), or losses by casualties which will be much more expected and less demoralizing, as the enemy will take losses as well that way.
When we go to war with anyone, there is always one who will have compassion for an enemy who would have our heads from our shoulders! I have thought bad of this war at times, but if we didn't fight, what cost then would there be! There would be a high cost - more lives. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - even if the many is thousands and the few are hundreds! A value cannot be placed on life, but fewer is logically better than many more! For that loss to be less, morale must exist - the morale the media is trying to draw, either intentionally or unintentionally, but nonetheless for their own career advancement.
The nation spent much time thinking about how to encounter terrorism and the only logical, though grizzly, choice was to go to war. If that's what must be done, that's what must be done. Only the government knows what must be done - sometimes there are errors, but that's what war is. You as a marine know how true the statement "no victory without loss" is. If loss is what America will take, then the enemy will sure as hell take more losses!

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Post by Elrond » Wed May 26, 2004 3:05 am

I might also want to add a quote:

"There's still some good in this world...and it's worth fightin' for!"
- Samwise Gamgee - Lord of the Rings

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Post by Wok » Thu May 27, 2004 12:20 am

"...There was never any hope." -Gandalf

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Post by Elrond » Thu May 27, 2004 1:20 pm

:lol:
"There still is hope if we keep Sauron's Eye fixed on us - keep him blind to all that moves..." -Aragorn

"A deversion.." - Legolas

"Sauron will not take the bait" - Gandalf

"Certainty of death, small chance of success...what are we waiting for?!" - Gimli

:lol: As you may notice, I just watched the Return of the King DVD - 3 times!!! :lol:

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Post by Wok » Thu May 27, 2004 10:39 pm

LOL

Touché!

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It seems...

Post by Numbazix » Sat May 29, 2004 6:10 am

Regardless of pro or con toward this war there are certain facts that can't be ignored. This is not WWII. The public attitude is not the one held by the public during WWII. The more negative news coming out of this war will shape public opinion. Public opinion will reflect on the current Administration's re-election efforts.

If the military and the Administration want to get the American people behind the effort they have to aggressively support a policy of news manipulation so that a more positive spin can be placed on their efforts in Iraq. Instead we see an effort to disengage as quickly as possible which will be disasterous for Iraq and leave it open to the radicals to carve up into city states. Just my thoughts.
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Post by Elrond » Sat May 29, 2004 1:12 pm

Absolutely - if the media is to manipulate the public, it should do so with that more positive spin. If anything matters the most during this war, it's morale and union - an upbeat outlook and attitude and a less separated nation (united we will stand).

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Post by mark » Sun May 30, 2004 3:21 am

i would like to point out to iOSYS that the germans never fired a shot or laid a foot on america during ww2 so by your logic the yanks should not have entered the war thereby leaveing europe in nazi hands, call me old fashioned but i am gratefull to the americans foe saving us then, and i am gratrefull to them for saving us now.
saddam was going to have his wmd one way or another and he would have used them, he did it before he would have done it again, o and bush has not started any wars, america was at war since sept 11, when an unproveked attack on their soil resulted in the loss of a great many civilians, they have every right to defend themselves by using premtive action, one more thing the taliban were told to hand over bin laded or else, they choose the or else they were also one of the most barbaric regimes to have existed on earth, so they are no loss at all.

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Given many chances

Post by Numbazix » Sun May 30, 2004 8:17 am

Sadam was given many chances to end the situation peacefully. At the end he was even given one last chance to leave Iraq to avoid bloodshed. He chose to stay and we went to war in Iraq.

Regardless of the wmd, or lack thereof, the main point here is that he was a ruthless and brutal dictator who supported terrorism and created terrorism within his own country as well as exporting it.

Bush? Hell, I never did like him and certainly won't vote for him. Having said that, Bush didn't start the war. During WW2 some people called it, "Roosevelt's War". I guess whatever administration is in power when a war happens gets tagged with it, however that doesn't make it true. What Bush can be blamed for is a foreign policy that has alienated our allies, lack of proper support for our troops in terms of men and supplies, and an attitude and behavioral pattern resembling Orwellian double-speak. He now seeks to "clarify" the mission objectives to fit the current situation so he can say, "See, I have succeeded."

No amount of political BS-ing and "clarification" will prevent the American people from seeing the truth concerning the mess in Iraq. We went in with no clear plan. We are there now with no clear plan. It's a given that when you don't know where you're going it's hard to arrive where you want to be.
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Post by Elrond » Mon May 31, 2004 1:34 pm

Numbazix - I agree about Saddam. He was told to end the situation peacefully and we gave him the 'or else...' clause. It was Saddam who chose war instead of having the sense to back off and allow the UN do inspections and complete other anti-terrorism anayses. Whether or not the whole thing was about WMDs or not - our government did make clear that it wasn't just the WMDs that we were after - it was this terrible regime that supported and enacted terrorism. As for Bush, last year I would have voted for him, these days I'm not quite so sure about him myself, but I agree he didn't start a war. It was just that the U.S. government followed what it said it would do if Saddam didn't show a little wisdom to at least have the UN inspect and continue its endeavors. Everybody agrees war sucks, but in hard times where more people are dying without military action, it is this action that became necessary. The terrorists don't react to subtle peacemaking and peace talks - it's only through the language of military action that they will understand what we are saying. They thought that we 'could talk the talk but couldn't walk the walk,' it is in that mentality that they were wrong - that our government's promises in the end came true in the action our nation took. Everyone in the country doesn't need to know the truth, but regardless of that, I agree we will know the truth no matter what type of cover-up and political brainwashing attempts to distort it. The truth being that yes, were there, but no, we don't have a plan. It's like the crisis between Israelis and Palestinians - a road map to peace is something politicians came up with over night and not only that - it was rushed! 5,000 years of war without real planning - just attack and run tactics that serve only to demoralize instead of accomplish anything.

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