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Intermech. I invite you to partake in this.

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:56 am
by MajorPayne
Now, for everyones attention, and due to a certain recently banned members attitude I'm posting an email I received within the past 24 hours:
Why are you so inclined to lie when the question is asked if there is a
non-stock importer Armada for Milkshape. You could just say that there is
but that you do not support it at your forum, or you could just use
plausible deniablility and say that you do not know of any.

The fact that you continue to delete my posts and claim they are illegal
implies some sort of sinister intent, and fear in the least. What do you
have to loose if noobies can import and kitbash models or even re-import
their own models? All men are created equal, in a modding community there
are no bosses or monopolies. It is time for a level playing field. If you
continue to restrict the knowledge of ways to import 3rd party Armada
models, I will proactively seek to break the monopoly.

Like I stated in the forum, according to the EULA that accompanies the
importer, it is NOT illegal for me to change the Armada Importer to allow
stock models. Milkshape has NO restrictions on its pluggins. And, do you
think Activision really cares if 3rd party models can be converted from
*.sod if all of their models have already been ripped out of the game?

It is time for the Armada community to come out of the dark ages and join
the other modding communities where mesh sharing is condoned and encouraged.

Cecilzero, you owe me and explaination. You said there was no importer, then
you said it was illegal to change the Milkshape one. Why lie like that?

Major A Payne, what are you so scared of? Are your models so run-of-the-mill
that if they were "stolen" people could not tell that they were yours? I
know for a fact that you have the capability to import and edit *.sod files.
Why deny others?

You guys have 2 weeks to bust up your monopoly before I start taking action.
I do not need to do it.

Let Freedom Ring!

Interstellar Machine

Now to point in question, and to answer this I'll go through this email, one section at a time:

Point 1: To begin with this seems to imply that I have lied about the existence of this non-stock importer. IM. Have you never heard of deformation of character. To imply that I have lied when I have clearly never done so, is in itself something which you can be held under duress for.

Point 2: I have never claimed under any circumstances, that your threads/replies on this subject are "illegal", and have edited them as I see the need to. There is one thing about people who edit and release materials made by others but what of the countless times that no credit has been issued to the original creator of said material. Do you deny that, that has never happened or are you blinded by the fact that you allow free editing of your models and textures when others are either not so keen to, or simply do not want editings done to their work (and I've seen it happen on plenty of occasions)??

Point 3: This forum has little to nothing to do with Activision and as such does not abide by the game or SOD plugin importers EULA, and to make that statement clearly implies that it does.

Point 4: As for the Armada community "coming out of the dark ages". Armada is well past its sell by date, and whilst there are a few who still mod it, for the most part the community has gone onto better things.

Point 5: I can't speak for Cecil as such, but why should their be ANY explanation forthcoming when you, yourself cannot offer any reasonable explanation concerning your actions on the forum??

Point 6: Me scared?? I would have though that with the release of EVERY model I've created in its native Autodesk 3ds format, onto AFC would have been proof enough that what you claim is simply untrue and a statement which you should refute as well (try checking the downloads area next time).

Point 7: I take it by this particular threat you intend to make a release of the non-stock importer elsewhere. Well to this I would say, that that is your perogative, but be warned yourself. if anything is found to be released in this manner, whereby any SOD file (and not just mine or for example, Flops models) and no credit is given then not only will the person involved be held responsible. So will you, and you can feel free to take that as a threat, promise or both.

Finally and most importantly. This forum, just as any other, has a set of rules which are enforced by the members of staff here. These rules can be changed or otherwise edited at any time without any members (including you), permission or say so. Should you not adhere to these rules then you can, and will be removed for an undisclosed length of time, or on a permanant basis. This is not a democracy. We do not vote on who does what or how someone acts. We do not vote on the banning of a troublesome member. That is why we have moderators and administrators, and if you can't see that or are not willing to abide by those rules then you should go elsewhere.

As it stands you were removed for 3 reasons:

1) After having your thread reply edited by myself, you felt it necessary to re-edit it.
2) By editing your own reply a second time, you then felt it necessary to goad Cecilzero into some kind of arguement.
3) You also felt it necessary to continue argueing (albeit mildy) with Phantom concerning the matter.

Now as a result you were removed from the forum (and I do frown upon members who re-edit a staff editing, which I placed into your reply). Now to point in question. I want you to respond to this and I'm sure several others will as well, and depending on that response will depend on whether you remain on the forum. As it stands and the way I see it, this is your attempt to "get back" at me for banning you from the forum so that you could not voice your opinion.

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:52 am
by cecilzero1
Cecilzero, you owe me and explaination. You said there was no importer, then
you said it was illegal to change the Milkshape one. Why lie like that?
u don’t know the entire story behind the exporter that "Phantom" has its up to him to tell people that he has one and it wasn’t know that there was one only a few select few knew bout it if it was so know that Phantom had one everyone will be bugging him

besides its not polite to barge into someones business

oh btw this is for everyone NO FLAMING

oh btw its not nice to edit a admins edit it just annoys us

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:32 pm
by WarrenG12
I cant this guy this kept on with the prying and insults...i have already seen posts where u guys have talkd about the import tool.....and I totally agree with it not being released...because people out there could just import whatever they wanted and give no credit to the original i agree with u guys on this

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:00 pm
by Elrond
I hereby stand by the agreement that any such "deformations" released will be deleted post-haste and the submitter eliminated. I shall be keeping an eye on this.

How many offenses do I see here against forum protocol? Well, it's somewhere between three and five. Well, it's already been discussed what those are, so let's move on...

It comes down to this: if you have to use other peoples' HARD WORK to create your own version of the same thing, then you just shouldn't make models. Go do it the right way: train yourself to use ms3d and such tools instead of preying on the hard work of others. Intellectual copyright is an unofficial law in this community (too bad it isn't official). But you're free to do what you think is right and if in the process you end up preying on someone else's work and hurting someone in the process, then that's where the consequences begin to stack up.

Apparently we are once again entitled to ramble on about something everyone already knows (or should know). It's for your own good and the good of others.

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:44 pm
by Phantom
Its really kind of sad it's reached this stage but no matter.

If Chris hadnt come to me and the other forum members he selected about creating a SOD importer none of this would have happened so be grateful for what was released.

The point of the SOD importer for Stock models was to inhere to what you suggested in the post that was posted during the week. The importer allowed the viewer to see the Node structure for hardpointing, and relating materials, it showed you how to layer a texture map, and it showed you estimated polygon counts for models, it also showed you how to model if you looked at it.

The reason why I urged Chris not to release the unlocked variant was due to pirating as at the time of it's infancy files (including a handfull of Future Tense's Remans I may add which were released in Achilles' Dominion MOD which used his models, and my textures for them) were pirated and some clown named Borg(something) pirated and claimed they were his own on Armada2Files' community boards. A huge row started and so on and so forth.

An author believe it or not of any file, has "creative copyright". As long as another sole knows about it (you cant 'officially' designate it your own as everything is governed by Paramount Studios and Activision) but you can copyright your material for creative, which states you made it. Therefore it is a violation to pirate that material and claim it as another.

If the unlocked Milkshape Plugin had been released, it wouldnt just be mod files being pirated, it'd be model parts, perhaps retextured or edited slightly, kitbashed with others, and the original artist wouldnt know that the model they had downloaded was partially there own.

That was why it was not released. The responsibility was given to the model makers that used Milkshape that Chris trusted which I think were 3 of us though I cant recall there names. One left after STGN collapsed, the other moved to A2Files and was never heard of before, and I am still active.

My terms and conditions for converting Armada SOD files
The ORIGNAL author(s where applicable) of the file you want converting contact me specially stating that they have given you their permission to convert to 3DS or MS3D format for editing.

Credits are placed on any public release. I don't have to be credited for convergence unless you want to, it isnt a nessecity, however authors that contributed to your modification should be. I do not care how insignificant they are, even if its a single polygon.

You learn from the construction, IE rather than relying on other peoples models to make mods, you actually learn how to model yourself. I have no problems doing it for newbie modelers, but as long as you learn from how they are done then thats cool as it not only promotes yourself and your mod, but it gives you the confidence to model on your own and thus expand the community.

If those conditions are fully understood with 100% compliance, then I'll be happy to convert SOD files (Time dependent on me of course, I'll rarely do it there an then unless I have time)

That is however why the SOD IMPORTER for Milkshape that allowed everyone to import any SOD was restricted. To prevent piracy, please respect that as it isnt nice when someone steals your work no matter how insignificant it is, and claim it as their own, and see others praise them for there dedicated hard work, when all they had done is steal from another person without their knowledge.

Any Pirated mods on AFC will be deleted from the database and the user banned from the site as Piracy (including WAREZ) is not tollerated by us in any way shape or form...


Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:18 pm
by WarrenG12
if u guys are worried about the priacy of ships sods....would it be a good idea to just get rid of the sod importer u guys have talked about?...might end the comments and requests for it if it doesnt exist :D

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:39 pm
by cecilzero1
WarrenG12 wrote:if u guys are worried about the priacy of ships sods....would it be a good idea to just get rid of the sod importer u guys have talked about?...might end the comments and requests for it if it doesnt exist :D

that wont work... to easy to modify one....

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:50 pm
by WarrenG12
oh ok i thought it would work....

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:23 am
by Elrond
This discussion will go on and on long after this thread becomes history.