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Utopian Society: Pipe-Dream or Possibility?

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:25 pm
by Numbazix
The Trekian model of society 24th century style: My own attitude on this varies based on 21st century news reports, however what this society may or not be is a question I'll put to all of you. Is this vision a pipe-dream or is it possible?

:?: :?: :?:

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:46 am
by Guest
It is impossible, since no-ones idea of perfection are the same as anyone elses, so we'd disagree on how to make this utopian society, thus it wouldn't be perfect for all, so its hardly utopian is it?

Squire James

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:43 am
by CenturionV
I agree. Its impossible to get a "utopian" society, I think though, through unity of belief it would be possible to get a very very good society were things like crime, war, disease and the hundreds of other problems that plague current nations would be reduced to an absolute minimum

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:56 am
by DarkGoblin
Society in Star Trek is far, <i>far</i> from perfect. It's idealized, certainly, but it's not perfect. Just look at Section 31, all the corrupt admirals and officers (Leyton, Dougherty, Cartwright, Pressman, Ben Finney, Matthew Decker, etc.), Dr. Bashir's father (an unsuccessful man)... The list goes on and on.

The real question is -- does it really matter whether it's possible or not? If it's "impossible" does that mean we should stop trying? For that matter, how do we know that it's impossible until we try? (Of course, one might also argue that nothing can truly be proven to be impossible just because you can't do it. But this is the same argument as saying that God does/doesn't exist because you can/can't prove that He exists, and I don't think we need to get into <i>that</i>.)

Personally, I've stopped thinking about these things altogether. If we allow ourselves to get bogged down in complex issues that likely don't even have answers, we're not going to get anywhere. Leave it to the philosophers.

Complex issues...

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:28 pm
by Numbazix
Einstein believed that the more complex an issue was that the answer was at the opposite end of the spectrum: Simple. If one was to try and establish this type of society it would be impossible without considering the complex issues. The opposite it also true: Simple issues often requiire complex solutions.

Philosopher? Maybe I am. I much prefer the term explorer. You can't get somewhere without asking for directions at times. :lol:

It would appear you haven't stopped thinking about complex issues. I like your answer.

Re: Complex issues...

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:04 pm
by captain_henk
Numbazix wrote:Einstein believed ... Simple issues often require complex solutions.
The theory for an Utopia is rather simple:
Love thy neighbour (and good medical sciences, too. But this is the groundwork)
But it's SO much more difficult in real-life. :(

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 7:41 pm
by cecilzero1
there will never be a Utopia at the way things are going :( hate,racism,bitterness ect.....

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:17 am
by Twitch
Yeah Cecilzero especially when a radical bunch of islamics rationalize that it is a realistic goal to ruin all western societies and return the world to 1,000 AD when they were hot. So stupid it doesn't warrent comment.

And hey this Star Trek society stuff is the product of a few collaborating writers for an imaginary TV series. I'm a writer. Would you want to believe my predictions of how I say ithe future should be? I don't think so. :)

Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 7:31 am
by fetalmonkey
utopia is a dream and this isnt disney world we live in. dreams dont come true here

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:19 pm
by Draconia
It seems to me that we might end up living on a planet ruled by the United States.

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:47 pm
by Elrond
Wow, I thought this topic had been dead. I appreciate you guys' interest in posting in the forums; however, it may be time for this thread to stay dead, at least for now. :)

Look at the last date of the one who posted before you two folks:

2004-01-16, 01:17:19.

Wow, that's three months before I even registered. 8O

Now on topic, I think that even the Star Trek timeline wasn't a utopia because of all the wars there are. In my experience, most people who live here in the US can't get along with anybody else. Fortunately, there are people like those on this site who get along well and we've known each other either for months or years on this site. But in regular every-day life, for two people to get along for more than two seconds is rare. I'm not too surprised that there's so much war. Granted, what's going on now isn't even close to what WW2 was, but war will no doubt always continue.

In the Star Trek timeline, Zeframe Cochrane invented warp drive, then poverty disease and war on earth was (pretty much) eliminated. But as we saw, there was a Terra Prime, Section 31, other races that wanted to take the Federation down, corrupt Admirals and conspiracies. The Federation is sometimes at war with itself.

My point is, that Star Trek is a rather optimistic view on the future, yet war still exists among humanity in some form or another. No matter how good we think we can make it, someone (terrorists) is going to come along and ruin it.

Since the 300's, the world has been in the Dark Ages. To me, the Dark Ages never truly ended. The Crusades, the Medieval wars, the cruel punishments (some which happen today in many corners of the world), are still continuing. The only thing that changes is technology. The Muslims and Christians have been at each-others' necks for quite a long time.

First, you have those who wish to punish one culture because of their differences. Then, the people who are attacked or their allies must defend themselves - so they also go to war. Then the terrorists will loose, then they'll get angry in the future, or if we lose, we get angry in the future and then the cycle of war begins again.

No utopia is possible, I imagine. Except with the Borg. I'd hate to say it, because the Borg are the most lethal and deadly forms of life (well, until the Sernaix and Universal Conquerers), but the Borg have a Utopia, of sorts. Because there is a collective mind and no personal differences, thus no war due to differences. The Borg rarely if ever fight each other.

So if we were to have a utopia, we would have to, all of us, lose our individuality as a price for peace. To me, it wouldn't be worth it. I'd hate to say it, but the wars we have fought have given us the technologies we now have. If it was all peace and no problems, then we wouldn't have anything to be interested in.

And even if there were no wars but we would still have problems in life, that would be the closest to utopia we would get to. If we didn't have problems (such as the classLabel problems in modding Armada), then there wouldn't ever be alternate and different ways to do things. If you want to eliminate something bad, then you have to sacrifice something good - that's the order of the universe that can't be breeched it seems.

Last word on this topic: Thread Closed (due to being very old and thusly revived) until further notice.

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:00 pm
by JPKTrekker
You made some good points, Elrond. Who would ever want to give up their free will and individuality? Plus, it is triumphing over adversity that makes life worth living.

EDIT: by Elrond: Thank you there. Very true. I just locked this thread until later notice, as it was very old and was revived. :wink: