Transformers

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Tethys
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Re: Transformers

Post by Tethys » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:07 pm

I just called Ralph on the big white phone looking at that pic QD ;)
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Re: Transformers

Post by QuasarDonkey » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:27 pm

Hehe. For those of you who don't speak Americanese:
urbandictionary wrote:Talk to Ralph on the Big White Phone
To throw up in the toilet.
"Man I drank so much last night I had to talk to ralph on the big white phone all morning"
:D

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Re: Transformers

Post by Kojote » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:22 pm

QuasarDonkey wrote:I think Roddenberry must be turning in his grave.
You're probably right.
Its entertainment. Kinda Rambo or something.
But there never was any claim for being visionary in this.
In fact I think no commercial product can be visionary (apart from the few cases when commercial viability and some kind of higher purpose go into the same direction... - Bah... forget that. Doesn't happen in reality...)

But on the other hand there was no doubt that any further Star Trek franchise would not be visionary.
Even Roddenberry himself couldn't have made it that way. Because he had his vision and he didn't put further work into it. It became another dogma.
Thats how it goes. We'd need another young, idealistic Roddenberry every ten years or so. And he'd have to be as lucky as the original one regarding finding people who fund the thing an bring it onto the big screen.

The day people turn away from another all to friendly, but at least a little entertaining vision for the future completely is the day we should fear.
It'd be the day they have no more hope...

QuasarDonkey wrote:Hehe. For those of you who don't speak Americanese:
urbandictionary wrote:Talk to Ralph on the Big White Phone
To throw up in the toilet.
"Man I drank so much last night I had to talk to ralph on the big white phone all morning"
:D
I certainly didn't know that. Thanks! :mrgreen:

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Re: Transformers

Post by marhawkman » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:37 pm

1: there's been more groups than just the Soviets try to institutionalize communal living. Another example that sticks in my memory was a town in Ohio that tried it. It lasted for a reasonable amount of time. In the end, it failed because some people would leech off the system and not do anything, while others would work all day long.

2: the 60s and 70s had a lot of movies that explored the concept of idealism. Star Trek fits in nicely with films like Logan's Run and Soylent Green.

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Re: Transformers

Post by anjel » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:07 pm

been reading latest post, one thing came to my mind, i´ve tryied to search for the exact quote, but didn´t have succes. It´s about first contact movie, when Picard first met Sloane, she asked him how much money did it cost the entire ship, and he said that the future was a little bit different that nowadays, they don´t drive their lives around money anymore, that the common goal was to make humanity better by by better understanding them selves and exploring :wink:

Another thing i want to suggest, in books there are plenity of space for politics, if you dig around enough, you´ll find some good books telling how things work in the future. The writters don´t want to go to farther thoug, that´s a pity, and i think all we know why... :?
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Re: Transformers

Post by Shasthri » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:54 pm

Finally, an interesting conversation. Quite a diversion of topics from "Transformers" to "Socialism" :lol:.
Quasar, I think Mr Gwang was not insinuating that international banking was in Star Trek. Obviously money does not exist in Star Trek and neither do bankers. Here is the original quote for reference:
MrGwangGwang wrote:
Your Star Trek "Utopia" is nothing more than an advanced version of what the International Bankers seek on Earth today: One World Government, erosion of National Sovereignty, the eradication of an individual's right to private ownership etc.

Although I can't be sure, I think Mr Gwang is saying that the concept of a one-world government and the infringement on individual rights are visible in Star Trek's "advanced version" of the international banker model of control. Money is really just one method of control that can be used in the future. After money is gone, there could easily be a new tool of destruction. Society is already self-regulating because the media forces thoughts of consumerism as well as other control mechanisms: fear of the unknown, hatred toward anything that is unique or different, fear of being different, and a lack of self-confidence.
QuasarDonkey wrote:
Is socialism a good or bad thing?

Socialism is just a word, as is democracy and capitalism, and mean different things to different people. Although the Federation has a charter of human rights, they could easily violate them (reference: Paradise Lost, The Drumhead). The US has Constitutional rights that are increasingly being violated.
Kojote wrote:
An Idea or vision in itself isn't good or bad. Socialism is an interesting idea. Even 'bad' ideas liek racism are worth thinking about them.
Its when a vision or idea becomes a dogma when the problems begin.

Kojote wrote:
Money is neccessary for a civilization to develop because it enables trade. But when the civilization reaches a global level the disadvantages predominate.
Money equals power. More than everything else. Even more than being good one chosen speaker or something.
To exchange the concept of currency with something that cannot be hoarded will be a neccessary step for humanity to grow up.

I agree with Kojote that all ideas should be explored before each individual comes to his or her own conclusion. I also think that ending the monetary system is a necessary step in our future development, just as the implementation of money was necessary for previous growth. No single way is THE right path for humanity. The only truly backward path is one that leads to the forceful removal of individual thoughts and rights.
QuasarDonkey wrote:
But this all reminds me of what Bill Cooper said about Star Trek being "socialist indoctrination" for the masses. :o He could be right.

Bill Cooper thought that the prospect of a central government was mass slavery in disguise due to the concentration of power. I think Bill would be in support of a Star Trek-type future where power is not centralized and individual thought preserved. Simply put:
"Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely." -Lord Acton

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Re: Transformers

Post by marhawkman » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:22 am

I don't think the concept of money will ever leave. I can't think of a single human society that HASN'T had some variation of it. Whether cavemen trading furs and flint tools, pacific islanders carving stone into giant wheels, or spaniards hordeing gold jewelry. even if it's not PRINTED poney it's still currency.

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Re: Transformers

Post by Tethys » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:25 am

I think i stopped looking at this topic when it got political. Ron Paul 2012, thats all I will leave you guys to. Let the bickering continue! :P
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Re: Transformers

Post by Kojote » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:55 am

marhawkman wrote:I don't think the concept of money will ever leave. I can't think of a single human society that HASN'T had some variation of it. Whether cavemen trading furs and flint tools, pacific islanders carving stone into giant wheels, or spaniards hordeing gold jewelry. even if it's not PRINTED poney it's still currency.
Can you think of a single human society that was as globalized as this one?
In a way humans are unique and utterly unnatural due to their intelligence. And that opens up possibilities.
I can at least imagine a world without any form of currency and I hope that this will happen one day. Including the loss of the psychological need for this kind of measurement for personal achievement.
So I hope that there will be a world without money. And Star Trek gave a reference for this at least.


Funny side note: I saw the latest Tansformers yesterday.
That has nothing to do with the discussion here. But I've got to say that I didn't like it.
I liked the first two ones and found them very funny. This one was in a way violating the 'vision' of the former ones. It lost not only its humor but also its idealism... ;)

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Re: Transformers

Post by Shasthri » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:18 pm

Tethys wrote:I think i stopped looking at this topic when it got political. Ron Paul 2012, thats all I will leave you guys to. Let the bickering continue! :P
Lol! I guess Ron Paul is the lesser of all the evils, but he's still a politician. Unfortunately, all politicians are purchased prior to being elected and during their terms in office. So far, every politician that has promoted change has went back on their word once elected. Although I would like Ron Paul to be different from the crowd, I remain cautiously skeptical. Although the election process is vital to American "democracy" (which is actually a "Constitutional republic"), America could achieve much more if its citizens believed in their own ability to promote change.
Kojote wrote: In a way humans are unique and utterly unnatural due to their intelligence. And that opens up possibilities.
I can at least imagine a world without any form of currency and I hope that this will happen one day. Including the loss of the psychological need for this kind of measurement for personal achievement.
So I hope that there will be a world without money. And Star Trek gave a reference for this at least.
I agree and hope one day humanity can CHOOSE to evolve in this manner. First we must realize our ability to change our surrounding situations and then realize that we can (and should) live without money, both of which will probably happen long after I am dead unfortunately. I think people are capable of coming to these conclusions today, but are so obsessed with modern consumerism and selfishness to realize or seek anything outside of the norm. In today's current mindset, people will only look for alternative solutions out of dire necessity.

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Re: Transformers

Post by Kojote » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:58 pm

Shasthri wrote:I agree and hope one day humanity can CHOOSE to evolve in this manner. First we must realize our ability to change our surrounding situations and then realize that we can (and should) live without money, both of which will probably happen long after I am dead unfortunately. I think people are capable of coming to these conclusions today, but are so obsessed with modern consumerism and selfishness to realize or seek anything outside of the norm. In today's current mindset, people will only look for alternative solutions out of dire necessity.
The funny thing is that there are more people seeing the increasing need for a radical change like this than 20 years before.
And this increasing number leads to some hope for a change in my lifetime (which is intended to be rather long by the master o my universe - me).

Curiously (and sadly) worsening conditions actually increase the awareness for some problems and are kinda desirable this way.
But at least we are living in interesting times... ;)

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Re: Transformers

Post by marhawkman » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:32 pm

Well Currency has 2 functions in society:

1: accumulation of personal wealth. less than 1% of the world's population ahs somewhere upwards of 25% of it's wealth. Is this right from a moral standpoint? Well yes and no. Letting others go hungry may be wrong, but having things isn't. However, accumulation of personal wealth does not require currency. Currency only facilitates it.

2: currency facilitates trade. This is actually the most important role of currency on a global scale. It makes trading goods much faster than barter. This too does not require actual currency. Many civilizations have created unofficial currencies simply to fill this need. Cowrie shells, pearls, copper ingots, gold rings, each of those has been used to facilitate trade by at least one civilization in history as an unofficial currency. Even the Federation in Star Trek uses a commodity system for trade.

So #2 probably isn't going to change, ever.

#1 would require people to not WANT to accumulate wealth. Otherwise people will find a way.

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Re: Transformers

Post by Shasthri » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:53 pm

Kojote wrote:
Shasthri wrote:I agree and hope one day humanity can CHOOSE to evolve in this manner. First we must realize our ability to change our surrounding situations and then realize that we can (and should) live without money, both of which will probably happen long after I am dead unfortunately. I think people are capable of coming to these conclusions today, but are so obsessed with modern consumerism and selfishness to realize or seek anything outside of the norm. In today's current mindset, people will only look for alternative solutions out of dire necessity.
The funny thing is that there are more people seeing the increasing need for a radical change like this than 20 years before.
And this increasing number leads to some hope for a change in my lifetime (which is intended to be rather long by the master o my universe - me).

Curiously (and sadly) worsening conditions actually increase the awareness for some problems and are kinda desirable this way.
But at least we are living in interesting times... ;)
"Master o my universe" lol! I hope you are right.

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Re: Transformers

Post by Kojote » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:33 pm

Shasthri wrote:"Master o my universe" lol! I hope you are right.
Well...
Unfortunately this other universe (called reality by some irritated people) refuses tenaciously to submit to my mastery for some yet unknown reason.
Most likely its a bug and it will certainly be corrected anytime soon. But its WIP until then...

:mrgreen:

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Re: Transformers

Post by MrGwangGwang » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:29 am

Indefinite detention of American "Terror Suspects" without trial as Obama departs from promise to veto this unconstitutional piece of legislation:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/de ... tion-obama

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