Hades is it worth the trouble?

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Hades is it worth the trouble?

Post by thunderchero » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:48 am

Well I know this will seem strange me asking this, but I myself am tired of all the problems that come along with hades (any version).

first lets list pros and cons of hades.

pros
none that I know of (or that can be proven)

cons
compatabilities, compatabilities, compatabilities, compatabilities

also just a note if you have stbof.ini set to software while hades is installed.
you get no advantages that hades should give you.
and in some rare cases (stardust as example) had to replace hades files with the vanilla files to stop from crashing in research screen.

personally I no longer support hades in installers and any updates hades will be removed. (new 1.1 hades for multi will be created when this happens)

but plan on keeping ship gif files compatable with hades for those who still want to use it.

well let me hear your comments,

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Post by KrazeeXXL » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:13 am

as I first installed Multi Installers I had constant crashes in every single tactical combat! DIRECT3D or SOFTWARE both of them!
then I installed the (Multi) Hades 2.2, played a match for 50 rounds without any crashes. I guess it was my first one, I played it against Carcher.
and it seemed to be the thing I ever was looking for.
it was set on 3DFX on this day.
Next day, constant crashes. I set it to SOFTWARE.
it worked.
since then I have it on software. crashes happen randomly. Sometimes after 3 tactical combats, other times after 20.

in my [old game] and with 2.2
Differences exist between Klingons and the other Races. Klingons crash more than the other majors in tactical combats.

[no hades issue, just a thing I noticed in my chrashcheckings]
I switched off music and voice ingame. the beginning crash in tactical combat seem to be highly decreased. but I got a new one at the end of the tactical battle I never had before. In some cases it crashes if I hit the "turn" button in the other odd case the game suddenly crashes after the fight.

comment: the sound scratches if the camera does its pan shot and you hear the "engines"


in my opinion Hades is a good project. it is worth to be worked along on it

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Post by thunderchero » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:22 am

XXL,

try what I suggested to stardust in this post.

viewtopic.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=677

then run your test and report back.

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Post by Flocke » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:15 am

In my opinion hades should be dropped and kept as seperate patches if necessary. It improved stability with some old computers but in nower days causes more troubles than it helps.

And with Falcon 4 code we seem to have a good chance for a complete new graphics engine.

I don't think Hades is worth all it's troubles anymore. :P

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Post by stardust » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:33 am

Just happy to test out a theory, Thunderchero :)

Oh, on that, i'm happy to report my 'All the Ages mod' I made for myself is running just fine with the changed files.
Computers! [Expletive deleted]

My 4shared folder

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Post by war800 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:43 am

i've never noticed the difference with hades installed or not. they both look the same to me (on my old desktop and laptop) and both never crash with or without hades. so either way doesn't really matter to me

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Post by captaindusk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:37 pm

On my system battles look slightly better with Hades 2.2. Got a Geforce 6800 LE TDH with 128 MB and it works fine. But it's no quantum leap at all.

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Re: Hades is it worth the trouble?

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:20 pm

thunderchero wrote:pros
none that I know of (or that can be proven)
Now that's funny....and good to know btw.
thunderchero wrote:cons
compatabilities, compatabilities, compatabilities, compatabilities
Not forgetting confusion. :?

Hitherto I was under the opinion hades is well approved and that software setting under hades would cause no downsides. In fact I remember earlier conversations claiming this all.

Never I found any improvement for myself - regardless of OS, PC or mod.
Thus I have to agree with your intend to remove hades from main & multi installers.


This reminds me on Joker’s vain endeavour, to explain the tactical combat patch is for japanese version only. Finally he stopped to do so, and the myth it improves stability is living on the forums till today. :(

stardust wrote:i'm happy to report my 'All the Ages mod' I made for myself is running just fine with the changed files.
Glad to hear you managed it. :)
I also miss the TOS Constitution in some mods.
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.

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Post by thunderchero » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:21 pm

also I feel the resizing of gifs to 256x256 has helped more than anything else. And this would be unchanged in any update.

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Re: Hades is it worth the trouble?

Post by KrazeeXXL » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:44 am

TC, I tested it and the result is the same like before. Nothing changed at all, as I took these test.files.

I tried many different graphic settings in the last weeks and nothing really helped at all. So I will do some soundchecking in the next time, too. I doubt it, but maybe I'll find something out.

But I will continue my crashcheckings. I will improve it and do some protocols, too. What happens if you do this and what if you do that with this and that setting. The last testings based almost on gud instinct and selection processes that came into my mind, so I can understand Spocks-cuddly-tribble as he described this whole problem with improved stability and Hades 2.2 as a myth.

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Re: Hades is it worth the trouble?

Post by thunderchero » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:53 am

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote:This reminds me on Joker’s vain endeavour, to explain the tactical combat patch is for japanese version only. Finally he stopped to do so, and the myth it improves stability is living on the forums till today. :(
I am not so sure about that, his claims may have stopped but the files are still used today. The tactical combat patch is part of jokers 1.0.2 patch, standard for modders and part of multi installers.

I also know tactical combat patch main benifit was improved phaser hobs that did decrease crashes in combat. but these files were available from microprose and I think atari downloads still has them. And are a part of 1.0.2 official patch. (tactical combat patch files was released before 1.0.2 patch I think) :wink:

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Re: Hades is it worth the trouble?

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:09 pm

Joker wrote:Patch Tactical Combat [!!!japan!!! version only]
http://www.members.aon.at/zelli/others.htm

Due to the malfunction of search-function I've to omit his (funny) replies from this forum here.


Concerning the 256 gifs: My thoughts exactly.
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.

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Post by Prometheus » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:46 am

My test were done over almost a decade of gameplay in more that three different machines, and with a diverse range of at least seven different graphic cards, as history progressed. All machines included mp use, as well as sp, with random events/borg on, and at least one recent mod [lately that was bop].

It is my opinion that we should examine more than a few cases here, regarding my observations:

1. Original game engine, software setting: rendering graphics awful, random and constant crashes, almost every few turns, quite frustrating;
2. Hades 1.1, direct3d setting: better graphics, crashes almost non-present [combat & research screens absolutely functional];
3. Hades 2.2, 3dfx setting: the best graphics, crashes a bit higher than direct3d [still combat almost-completely functional], works on some cards better and some simply dislike 3dfx glide engine support in these dlls;
4. Hades 2.2, direct3d setting: graphics comparable to 3dfx setting, maybe a bit worse, but still way better than original software setting, crashes almost non-present [combat & research screens absolutely functional]; in my opinion this option is largely compatible with all existing cards, since dlls should have been made comforting to directx 5 3d rules, even then.

I'm posting this now, cause time came for my friends and I to take a few botf mp sessions again (we do it every few months now and then). So we spent three days examining new mods, patches and things released recently, having time to test all these combinations just a few days earlier. We did auto and manual installs more than a few times and know our way around.

It is my opinion that new textures in hades 2.2 r wonderful, and it goes also for dlls, so, m8, u rly should not disband this project at all. Maybe using direct3d setting instead of 3dfx as a default one, should prove a good combination for most ppl.

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Post by Flocke » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:07 am

Prometheus, welcome to the forums,
...but you didn't hit the point.
First, there exists no Hades2.2 Direct3D, in fact currently included in the multi installers is Hades1.1.
2nd, there are many people having enormous compability issues with Hades1.1 AND Hades2.2 with modern graphic cards, including me.
3rd, it has been suggested, that software mode only has been less stable for people that work fine with Hades cause of having bigger textures than Hades. Hades requires textures of 256x256 as far I've understood but software workes with 512x512 by default.

So solution will likely be having software mode with 256x256 as default and maybe having seperate Hades patches if necessary.

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Post by Prometheus » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:51 am

Flocke wrote:First, there exists no Hades2.2 Direct3D, in fact currently included in the multi installers is Hades1.1.
That may be for multi installers, but I'm not using any of them.

There is a Direct3D in Hades2.2, and dlls this setting is using r updated together with Glide 3DFX support too. It wouldn't work otherwise anyway. Ofc, graphics r way better than in Hades 1.1 this way too.
Flocke wrote:2nd, there are many people having enormous compatibility issues with Hades1.1 AND Hades2.2 with modern graphic cards, including me.
I'm not disputing that, there r many compatibility issues with modern graphic cards. The latest card I've tested it with was GeForce 260 and it works almost non-crashing with Hades 2.2 with Direct3D, as I already posted.
Flocke wrote:3rd, it has been suggested, that software mode only has been less stable for people that work fine with Hades cause of having bigger textures than Hades. Hades requires textures of 256x256 as far I've understood but software works with 512x512 by default.
Yes, but in software mode graphics r awful, and I don't know how anyone would want 2 use them when they could be using Direct3D, if compatible.

The only thing u have 2 make sure is that all textures r 256x256, which u r suggesting anyway. Still, my testing showed no compatibility issues with new dlls.

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