How good is the 8472 bioship?
Having watched Voyager episodes ‘Scorpion’ 1 & 2, I’d just like to have a little discussion on the capabilities of Species 8472 bioships, which seem to be currently the one craft in the Star Trek universe that can go one on one with a Borg cube and win. I have read on other sites that this ship can easily dispose of a cube, and is virtually impervious to Borg, and for that matter, other races technology. So I decided to watch the main Voyager episodes that Species 8472 appears in (Voyager Scorpion 1 & 2, ‘Prey’ and ‘In the Flesh’) and see if these claims are accurate.
The memorable opening scene of ‘Scorpion 1’ shows two Borg cubes (of the type I classify as Class 3 Attack Cubes), approach the viewer and utter the familiar Borg message about being assimilated etc. Only they don’t get to finish it because a golden energy tendril (which we later see as the main weapon of a bioship) hits the cube on the right, causing damage to the Borg ships surface. This is immediately followed by another tendril hitting the left cube in its centre, again causing explosive damage to the Borg ships surface. Both ships continue on course. They are damaged but still functional. Another tendril hits the right cube dead in its centre, which causes it to start veering off course. Then immediately both cubes are hit by straight golden beams which immediately destroy both Borg vessels. We again see this straight beam later in Scorpion 2, being used by nine bioships in ‘planetkiller’ mode.
So what do we make of this encounter? We don’t see the Borg’s opponents, so we can only speculate at this stage. The two straight beams may indicate the presence of at least 18 bioships (since it takes at least 9 to produce this beam). The energy tendrils may also indicate an extra two to three bioships in the group, bringing a total of at least twenty 8472 ships. That only two Borg ships would willingly take on so many is nothing new. We see it depicted in the various Star Trek series and movies,
- TNG & DS9 â€" Wolf 359: 1 Borg cube vs 40 Federation vessels,
- Voy ‘Dark Frontier where 2 cubes and a diamond face off against 39 Species 10026 ships,
- ‘First Contact’ where 1 cube takes on and almost beats a large Federation fleet).
You could almost call it Borg arrogance. Only in this case the 8472 fleet comes out on top. On the other hand, we also get to see an 8472 space station in Voy ‘In the Flesh’, which might also be able to produce these straight beams. So, there is the possibility that one of these stations, with some supporting bioships, was the object of this Borg attack. We will probably never know. What we can say is that the energy tendrils have no problem damaging a Borg cube, while the straight beams just shatter them with one shot (not surprising given that one of these beams destroyed a whole planet!).
Continuing in Voy ‘Scorpion’, we get to see an impressive fleet of 15 Borg cubes coming straight at Voyager (okay, who laughed when Janeway said “Shields to maximum! Stand by all weapons!â€
How good is the 8472 bioship?
Moderator: thunderchero
Re: How good is the 8472 bioship?
Talk about an in-depth analysis.geon wrote:the stats for a bioship should make it slightly more superior to the latest class of normal Borg cube. In other words, in any one on one battle, the bioship will destroy the cube, but take heavy damage in the process. In a battle with a Tactical Cube, it will be an even contest.
I do have a couple issues with it. Voyager, taken as canon, really dumbed down the borg. The Borg in BOTF outclass other vessels more like the Wolf-359 massacre than anything in Voyager. So first off, it's skewed. I don't know if a single bioship should be able to wipe out a small fleet on its own, on the order of Wolf 359. I would just assume that the empires have upgraded their defenses somewhat.
Secondly, I always thought of Voyager surviving the bioship hit as being due to a difference in the TYPES of defenses. You looked at the problem as only a problem of strength. Weapons and shields have a number and that's it. But really, there could be a difference in how the shields work. Maybe 8472's ships were outfitted with weapons specifically designed for Borg, and Federation shields worked a bit differently. I don't know.
Thank you for your input, TurboC.
In reply to your observations, yes, you might say that the Voyager writers ‘dumbed down’ the Borg to give the Federation ship a way of surviving from one episode to the other.
On the other hand, in other posts on this forum, I’ve tried to rationalise the discrepancies between Voyager and the power of the cubes at Wolf 359 and First Contact, by referring to the ‘Picard’ and ‘Seven of Nine’ factors.
In Voyager, Seven of Nine’s inside knowledge of the Borg meant that, relative to normal Federation ships, Voyager now has a much better chance of surviving an encounter.
In Wolf 359, Picard’s knowledge of the Federation fleet allowed one cube to massacre a whole fleet with no damage to itself. Later, in ‘First Contact’, another cube was able to break through the fleet, but without any knowledge of the new Federation ship weapons and tactics, suffered terrible damage.
Because of this one sided battle at Wolf 359, everyone seems to have taken it for granted that a Borg cube was a terrible, unstoppable fleet killing vessel. Against small fleets of 40 or so ships, the cube is dangerous. Against large fleets as seen in the Dominion War (hundreds of ships), a single cube would certainly be destroyed. The makers of BOTF have gone with the Wolf 359 model and given the cube, what I consider exaggerated stats.
I quite agree with you that Voyager’s defences were a factor in it’s survival of the energy tendril hit. I’ve always considered that, relative to other races ships, Federation vessels had the best shields (a view also taken by the makers of BOTF). Just look at Star Trek The Motion Picture. Klingon K’tingas did not surive a hit from V’ger’s weapon, but the Enterprise did….just (thanks to its shielding).
Borg vessels certainly have shields (they are mentioned in Voyager ‘Scorpion’), but relative to their size, I think they are weaker than a comparable sized ship from another race (say a starbase). From looking at the ships, the Borg seem to place greater reliance on hull strength and armour. From the first cube seen in TNG, to ‘First Contact’ to Voyager, there seems to be a build up of cube hull armour. Finally, in the Class 4 Tactical Cube we see massive armour plates being put on the ship superstructure.
Voyager’s shields allow it to survive one hit, but it still takes damage. When a Borg ship is hit, the resulting explosions may well be the hull armour being destroyed.
You may be right in thinking that 8472’s weapons were specifically designed with Borg shield and armour factors in mind. Then again, the weapon may be so powerful that no adjustment for specific races is necessary.
Regards
Geon
In reply to your observations, yes, you might say that the Voyager writers ‘dumbed down’ the Borg to give the Federation ship a way of surviving from one episode to the other.
On the other hand, in other posts on this forum, I’ve tried to rationalise the discrepancies between Voyager and the power of the cubes at Wolf 359 and First Contact, by referring to the ‘Picard’ and ‘Seven of Nine’ factors.
In Voyager, Seven of Nine’s inside knowledge of the Borg meant that, relative to normal Federation ships, Voyager now has a much better chance of surviving an encounter.
In Wolf 359, Picard’s knowledge of the Federation fleet allowed one cube to massacre a whole fleet with no damage to itself. Later, in ‘First Contact’, another cube was able to break through the fleet, but without any knowledge of the new Federation ship weapons and tactics, suffered terrible damage.
Because of this one sided battle at Wolf 359, everyone seems to have taken it for granted that a Borg cube was a terrible, unstoppable fleet killing vessel. Against small fleets of 40 or so ships, the cube is dangerous. Against large fleets as seen in the Dominion War (hundreds of ships), a single cube would certainly be destroyed. The makers of BOTF have gone with the Wolf 359 model and given the cube, what I consider exaggerated stats.
I quite agree with you that Voyager’s defences were a factor in it’s survival of the energy tendril hit. I’ve always considered that, relative to other races ships, Federation vessels had the best shields (a view also taken by the makers of BOTF). Just look at Star Trek The Motion Picture. Klingon K’tingas did not surive a hit from V’ger’s weapon, but the Enterprise did….just (thanks to its shielding).
Borg vessels certainly have shields (they are mentioned in Voyager ‘Scorpion’), but relative to their size, I think they are weaker than a comparable sized ship from another race (say a starbase). From looking at the ships, the Borg seem to place greater reliance on hull strength and armour. From the first cube seen in TNG, to ‘First Contact’ to Voyager, there seems to be a build up of cube hull armour. Finally, in the Class 4 Tactical Cube we see massive armour plates being put on the ship superstructure.
Voyager’s shields allow it to survive one hit, but it still takes damage. When a Borg ship is hit, the resulting explosions may well be the hull armour being destroyed.
You may be right in thinking that 8472’s weapons were specifically designed with Borg shield and armour factors in mind. Then again, the weapon may be so powerful that no adjustment for specific races is necessary.
Regards
Geon
I don't know.
Borg and Federation shields work on similar principles if you ask me.
The Borg asimilate the relevant info on the race they are facing to devise a defense but we've also seen in Q Who, even without asimmilating technology/ information they can adapt their shields to neutralise new weaponry quickly.
The wasted no time coming up with a defense to Phasers and Photon torpedoes after the Enterprise took a chunk out of the Borg ship initially.
Whereas particularly with Voyager, Federation sheild technology has advanced to a point where they can remodulate sheilds in battle to lessen the effect of their opponent's firepower.
With both ships though we see Species 8472 quickly cut through both Borg and Federation defenses so i'd surmise that their firepower is just too much for either shield system to stand up to.
Kind of like a brute force approach. Ram all your energy into one burst to do a hell of a lot of damage with it but then take a while to recharge.
I don't recall seeing a Bioship use a rapid fire technique of any sort in their engagements.
Borg and Federation shields work on similar principles if you ask me.
The Borg asimilate the relevant info on the race they are facing to devise a defense but we've also seen in Q Who, even without asimmilating technology/ information they can adapt their shields to neutralise new weaponry quickly.
The wasted no time coming up with a defense to Phasers and Photon torpedoes after the Enterprise took a chunk out of the Borg ship initially.
Whereas particularly with Voyager, Federation sheild technology has advanced to a point where they can remodulate sheilds in battle to lessen the effect of their opponent's firepower.
With both ships though we see Species 8472 quickly cut through both Borg and Federation defenses so i'd surmise that their firepower is just too much for either shield system to stand up to.
Kind of like a brute force approach. Ram all your energy into one burst to do a hell of a lot of damage with it but then take a while to recharge.
I don't recall seeing a Bioship use a rapid fire technique of any sort in their engagements.
Never said it could stand up. Just that it had an advantage from being different. I see it as a likely factor as to why Voyager's shields weren't penetrated on a single strike from a weapon of that power.
I guess you could also say some of the force was deflected by Voyager physically flying backward but.. what kind of sense does THAT even make? A mass changing its momentum in response to an energy weapon? Maybe the weapon's energy is pure kinematic energy?
It's all moot anyway, because we're trying to apply logic to a series that always put plot convenience far ahead of logic.
I guess you could also say some of the force was deflected by Voyager physically flying backward but.. what kind of sense does THAT even make? A mass changing its momentum in response to an energy weapon? Maybe the weapon's energy is pure kinematic energy?
It's all moot anyway, because we're trying to apply logic to a series that always put plot convenience far ahead of logic.