Complete Primate Skeleton from the Middle Eocene found

[KrazeeXXL]

the subject says it and if you surfed to google.com today and wondered about their new script nameplate I have a link for you which explains it all:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0005723

hm, so if even google accepted and adapted it... maybe it isn't cheating then, Flocke? Ok, forget about our google discussion we had yesterday Perhaps cuil has it soon, too

[TurboC]

Kinda cool but kinda boring. I'm a lazy person of the computer age, I want to see a 3D reconstructed animated bunch of those primates moving around in trees and whatnot.

Actually I'm more fascinated by earlier times in history, like the Devonian period, and the first land animal/fish crawling out of the sea which became the ancestor of all land animals. Wish I could see the Devonian period with my own eyes...

[eber3]

Wish I could see the Devonian period with my own eyes...

Might as well wish to see the Trek universe for yourself. They are both just as real.

[TurboC]

Wait... are you one of the people that thinks Satan planted fossils in the ground to confuse everyone?

[eber3]

Wait... are you one of the people that thinks Satan planted fossils in the ground to confuse everyone?

Um, no. But Macro evolution is nonsense. Doesn't exist, never did. Fossils are just what they appear to be, the remains of dead animals. Some are extinct, some are not. Some that have been claimed to be extinct past forms of current animals have been found alive today and exactly the same as the fossils that are claimed to be millions of years old.

[TurboC]

Uh, so you're saying God created everything all at once, and nothing evolved? ... well whatever. I think scientists get a lot of things wrong, but we know a whole lot more now than when the catholic church was in control of what knowledge could and couldn't be taught. There's too much evidence to say there were no earlier periods of Earth. For one thing, they can measure oxygen concentrations, and for a long time it was a whole lot less than it is now.

Actually, I think aliens may have had some hand in creating our species. We could be genetically altered primates, made for whatever reason. There's too much evidence of aliens, often from very credible sources (like entire police departments) to dismiss all of it. Factor in the pyramids in Egypt and South America, many images of "sky chariots" in historical depictions, Nazca lines, ancient airfoils, ancient batteries, ancient maps of Antarctica's land mass under the current ice sheet, etc.

You have to ask "why are they here?" I have a lot of theories on that, but the common conclusion I reach is that we definitely wouldn't like the answers.

[eber3]

Uh, so you're saying God created everything all at once, and nothing evolved?

No, things evolve. At what is called micro level. This covers things like different species of equines, felines, canines, etc evolving from a common ancestor of the same type. Man did the same when we evolved the different types of human races. What doesn't happen is macro level, where fish turn into amphibians and dinosaurs become birds. And man isn't an animal and we don't share a common ancestor with apes. all of these things are absurd and there is zero proof that this ever happened.

... well whatever. I think scientists get a lot of things wrong, but we know a whole lot more now than when the catholic church was in control of what knowledge could and couldn't be taught.

First, the bible has been around a lot longer then the Catholic church.

There's too much evidence to say there were no earlier periods of Earth. For one thing, they can measure oxygen concentrations, and for a long time it was a whole lot less than it is now.

Second, the bible told us about the earlier time of the Earth long before science considered the idea. Before the great flood, which deposited the majority of the fossils btw, the Earth was a very different place with a different atmosphere and living conditions. After the flood the atmosphere changed and life became harder. This information is in the Bible.

[TurboC]

So... what were Neanderthals?

[eber3]

So... what were Neanderthals?

A species of ape, assuming they even existed. Scientist have a bad habit of assembling bones from more then one species and/or misidentifying the bones as something they are not. Such as the Brontosaurus, which they have decided never existed... they had the wrong head on the animal for a hundred years. The new animal, same body different head, is called a Apatosaurus. Then of course there is the Hesperopithecus, aka Nebraska man "ape-man of the Western world" fossil that was supposed to be the human ancestor in the Americas... until they realized that the remains were actually of a pig. The only real surprise is that they didn't just start claiming we evolved from pigs.

[TurboC]

If you want to see life only through a filter, that's your business. But when you jump into a discussion spouting utter nonsense, you make it my business. "Some scientists had a fossil reconstruction wrong, therefore all fossil reconstructions are wrong" -- that's called fallacy. Any RELIGION held to that kind of standard would disintegrate instantly.

How about dinosaurs, did they exist? You'd think the bible would have talked about such things, or wasn't God aiming to be thorough in his holy depictions of His creation? I think giant reptiles with razor sharp teeth would deserve a specific mention, but that's just me. "And Noah gathered all of the beasts of the land, and birds of the air, male and female, except those nasty dinosaurs because they were mean, and too big to fit into the boat."

If I was so inclined, I could list enough things to tear your faith to shreds. I have no interest in doing that. I have a broader perspective than so-called "athiests" who seek out religious people to trash, to satisfy their petty, childish egos. Most humans need religion. I understand that. But you're stomping on an actual scientific discussion, twisting faith and hand-picked facts into an unholy (sic) mixture and inflicting it on others. Sorry, but I have just about zero patience left for people who can't think clearly, who fully succumb to the human failing of self-deception, and then bludgeon others with it.

Take your argument back to whatever inner religious circle you belong to. I'm sure your "explanation" of the fossil record will comfort many of faith. But I doubt you will find this forum very receptive to it. In the meantime, everyone else can talk about this actual fossil discovery, what it actually could mean in the actual world, and how it may fit into the actual fossil record of Earth (such as it is currently known.)

[stardust]

I love reading/watching things about ancient evolution and history. I've got the all the 'Walking with....' Series on DVD. Dinosaurs, beasts, etc.

As for these scientific discoveries, yes, they get things wrong from time to time but more often than not they hold their hands up and say, 'Yep, we've cocked up, but we've learned something from it.'

This is what I like about science. it's all theories, constantly being revised and challenged without a widespread fear of persecution.

Religion on the other hand. Beliefs carved in stone that if you dared challenge or disobey you're threatened with some sort of Cosmic blackmail, i.e. Going to Hell.

And especially in the medieval period, you could wind up being burned for your beliefs, the church was that powerful.

Blah...not for me...I'll Stick to Paganism.

[TurboC]

To play devil's advocate from another angle - science (as it exists) is far from exempt or holy. There is plenty of dogma and stubborn belief present in science. Accepted theories are published and funded, non-accepted theories meet with ridicule. It's a new take on an old theme. In a sense, popular science is the new dogma.

The fundamental problem? In short, groupthink. People need to think for themselves. Every time I say that, I know I am expecting too much of the human race, but I keep saying it anyway. In fact I have a faith, but it's not bounded by the christian religion or any other religion. It's also not negated by things like fossil records or scientific discoveries. Given the choice, I choose to believe that intelligent life, the universe and everything else exists for SOME purpose. Maybe humans have been in contact with a creator or some universal purpose, or maybe every single human faith and religion is fantasy, but either way it doesn't disprove that some kind of purpose could exist. No discovery will ever disprove all possible gods, only if the person's imagination is too limited. It's large scale in nature, not just "where did humans come from" or "why are we here" but why was there a big bang, why is there dimensionality and a quantum vacuum which was conducive to a big bang, why does reality itself exist, inside which these things can occur, etc.

I guess I'm sort of a hybrid-Pascal's-Wagerist. If I believe in something and live what I see as a positive life, even if I'm wrong what have I lost? I'm not going to ignore scientific discovery and I don't need to. Nor do I need to conform to someone else's belief system, or live a hypocritical life praying to a god whom I think makes little sense as described in some religious text. I can pray to a universal god and ask for good things and self-betterment, and if it's just a security blanket to ease my human insecurities about the futility of existence, so be it. I don't see a lot of positive things coming from the "arrogant athiest" camp, basically just arrogant mockery of all faiths, which I'd say is rooted in the same desperate desire to feel secure. They don't have religion to feel secure, so instead they band together and feel secure in their group mockery of religion. Same difference. They're still idiots.

[jonboylondon]

This is what I like about science. it's all theories, constantly being revised and challenged without a widespread fear of persecution.

Not sure that is the case really, more like a Utopic view.

There are still several areas where Religeon, Corporate and "trends" can lead to scientific re-search in one specific area at the expense of others. However prehaps a topic for another post! (Or maybe covered in an old post to a great extent!!! )

JBL

Some further thoughts on the matter....

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... -link.html

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... -over-ida/

Let us not forget that we have a way to go before evolution as we percieve it at the moment is anywhere near a complete article. Though it stands on a huge amount sound scientific evidence there are still some areas that are very much open to scrutiny (and im saying this as someone who does lean to the theory of evolution!!).

There must be a balence....we do not know enough and there are too many statements and not enough evidence here .....lets see some evidence to read and form our opinions!!


JBL

[eber3]

If you want to see life only through a filter, that's your business. But when you jump into a discussion spouting utter nonsense, you make it my business.

It's only "utter nonsense" because you choose to see it that way. You obviously know nothing about the Bible, yet you declare it is wrong. The Bible does talk about Dinosaurs, but of course it doesn't use that name for them because it didn't exist yet. At the same time you believe the utter nonsense of Macro evolution simply because you were taught it was true, even though there has been no proof of it ever found. You are the one looking at life through a filter, your faith, your religion, is evolution. But you can't even have a conversation about it without becoming defensive and insulting, from your little smiley to your making statements about the Bible and its contents when you have no knowledge of that book. Not to mention putting statements in my mouth, I never said "Some scientists had a fossil reconstruction wrong, therefore all fossil reconstructions are wrong", all I implied is that it is suspect because they are all based on the same idea, trying to force fossils into the the 'evolution of man' mold. You put your faith in anything that isn't God, from evolution to aliens, it doesn't matter to you as long as you can stay firm in your faith that God doesn't exist. Keep your blinders on, you wouldn't want to ever learn the truth... not if God might be involved.



PS I'd suggest that you actually learn about the Bible before declaring it wrong. And before you reply that you do know the Bible, no you don't. Every single thing you have said about the Bible here has been wrong, except for the fact that there was a Noah and an Ark.

PPS Before you bother to reply or try to continue the debate with me, don't bother. You ask questions but don't want to hear any answers that don't agree with your religion. You are not open to discussion, your mind is closed. That was obvious right from your first reply, I should have never bothered to begin with. It is funny that your later reply talks about people mocking faith, when that IS YOU. That is all you have done in every reply to me. In fact, you are the one who brought up religion, in a mocking way to begin with.

[TurboC]

It's only "utter nonsense" because you choose to see it that way. You obviously know nothing about the Bible

Yet I was raised as a Christian. I know far more about Christianity than you think.

you believe the utter nonsense of Macro evolution simply because you were taught it was true, even though there has been no proof of it ever found.

The proof is all around you, you choose to ignore it. Chimp DNA is 99% the same as ours. Look how many similar forms of life there are.

I don't take anything "on faith", not even the supposed conclusions of current fossil record analysis. But the collective bumblings of actual current scientists are far superior to musty scribblings of people from 2000 years ago.

You are the one looking at life through a filter

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

I'm the most clear-thinking person you will ever have the misfortune of being smacked down by.

I'm done with your stupidity.

P.S. -- I never mentioned religion until you tried using it to disprove actual science. I knew everything about you from your first post. Take your religion elsewhere, and have fun with it. It has no place in logical discussion, nor apparently do you.