What caused the Romulan isolation?

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What caused the Romulan isolation?

Post by geon » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:58 pm

What caused the Romulan isolation?

One of the big (currently) unanswered questions in Star Trek is, ‘Why did the Romulans isolate themselves for over 50 years during the 24th century? Apart from a brief quote to that effect in TNG ‘Neutral Zone’, we know practically nothing about the reasons for this phenomenon. Direct information in the various TV series is almost non existent.

Many other sites, books and individuals have tried putting forward scenarios attempting to fill in this gap. While inventive, they remain unsubstantiated ideas.

So, with the meager information that is currently available, I’m going to try and attempt to put forward some plausible suggestions for this occurrence. Bear in mind that until all this is solved by some on screen depiction in a future TV series (or movie) the following is necessarily mere educated speculation (best guesses if you will).

Let’s start with what little we do know. In TNG ‘Neutral Zone’ (2364), Riker and Data remark,

RIKER: There's been no direct contact with the Romulans since the Tomed Incident.
and
DATA: Since we have no contact with the Romulans for fifty three years, seven months, eighteen days, we must consider that the information we do have, is out of date.

So, we know that the Romulans went into isolation from the Federation from after the Tomed incident (whatever that is â€" we don’t have any further information about this incident either). We also don’t know whether this incident was responsible for the isolation, or was just the last Romulan- Federation interaction before the Romulans closed their borders.

Secondly, Data gives us the duration of this isolation (53 years, 7 months and 18 days) and its start, 2311 AD (ie: 2364 â€" 53).

It might have been hoped that the Romulan protagonists in this episode might have forwarded some additional information, but all we get is;

TEBOK [on viewscreen]: Captain Picard, because your actions are those of a thoughtful man, I'll tell you this. Matters more urgent caused our absence. Now, witness the result. Outposts destroyed, expansion of the Federation everywhere. Yes, we have indeed been negligent, Captain. But no more.
TNG ‘The Neutral Zone’

Thanks a lot Tebok, you’ve been a BIG help!!!!!

So, in summary, we have the following on screen facts:
1) The Tomed incident was the last direct Federation-Romulan interaction before the isolation. It may or may not be responsible for this isolation.

2) The isolation began in 2311 and lasted till the ‘Neutral Zone’ episode ie: 2364, a length of around 53 years.

3) Unknown ‘urgent matters’ caused the Romulans to withdraw within their borders.

That’s all the on screen information we have.

So, we are left with trying to put forward some plausible ideas based on other star trek on screen television and movie information, to try and determine what these ‘urgent matters’ may have been.

Let’s start with what it couldn’t be.

It definitely cannot be an earlier incursion by the Borg, for the following reason. The Romulans did not recognize the distinctive damage done to their outposts, and those of the Federation.

TEBOK [on viewscreen]: We do not know who is responsible. Why entire outposts on both sides have been carried off.
TNG ‘The Neutral Zone’

Had the Borg attacked back in 2311 and assimilated outlying outposts and colonies, the Romulans would have immediately recognized the ‘great rifts’ in the planetary surfaces of the victims, and would have not bothered to send a Warbird into Federation territory to gather intelligence. The Enterprise recognized the ‘rifts’ because they had seen them previously in System J-25. But at this stage even the Enterprise didn’t make the connection between the Borg and these rifts, since Picard himself couldn’t identify the attackers.

Dialogue between Seven of Nine and Axum in VOY ‘Unimatrix Zero’ established that fluidic space was on the borders of the Beta Quadrant. So, could an early intrusion of Species 8472 into the Romulan Star Empire be to blame? Again, the answer must be no. The Borg intrusion into fluidic space, which provided the means to overcome the dimensional rift between fluidic and normal space, and allow travel between the two, occurred much later (2373). In any case, Species 8472 had no intention (before the coming of the Borg) of ‘polluting’ their genetic integrity with our unclean galaxy.

So what are our possibilities?
Bearing in mind occurrences going on in the rest of the Star Trek universe, is there anything we can identify that would make the Romulans behave in this fashion?

Let’s review the candidates.

The Klingons
It has been well established in a number of tv series and movies, that there is overt hostility between the Romulan and Klingon empires. In ST ‘The Undiscovered Country’ (2293), the Romulans are covertly trying to help destroy the Klingon Empire. One earlier major clash, the Battle of Klach D’kel Brakht in 2271-2 (DS9 ‘Blood Oath), may have started a whole chain of hostilities, leading to later engagements such as the Romulan attack at Narendra III (2344) TNG ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’.

Certainly, there seems to have been a long period of tension.
LAFORGE: Klingons and Romulans working together? They've been blood enemies for seventy five years.
TNG ‘Reunion’ Stardate: 44246.3 (2367), making the time of ‘blood enemies’ as 2292 (2367 -75) just before the ‘Undiscovered Country’.

A full scale war may have erupted by 2311 as a result of these earlier actions. This is a possibility, but there are a number of problems with this explanation. Firstly, the Klingons were fully engaged in reconstruction after the Praxis incident (which may or may not have involved Romulan sabotage), and would have been unlikely or unable to have started any major conflict in the near future. Secondly, the Federation would have been fully aware of any full scale war, since they were regularly monitoring both empires. Thirdly, as part of the Khitomer Accords, the Federation would have been obliged to support the Klingons.

Since nothing of the sort is ever mentioned in any series or movie, a full scale conflict is unlikely. So a Klingon cause for the isolation can be ruled out. However, their actions do show that the Klingons were taking full use of this Romulan inaction to seize any targets of opportunity that presented themselves (eg: Klach D’kel Brakht), and that skirmishes continued between the two powers throughout this period.

The Remans
ST ‘Nemesis’ introduced the Reman element in Romulan society, and established their formidable military capabilities.

DATA The Remans themselves are considered an undesirable caste in the hierarchy of
the Empire.
RIKER But they also have the reputation of being formidable warriors. In the Dominion
War, Reman forces were used as assault troops in the most violent encounters.
ST ‘Nemesis’

And again,

PICARD (to Data) What have you learned about Shinzon?
DATA Starfleet intelligence was only able to provide a partial account of his military
record. We can infer he is relatively young and a capable commander. He fought
seventeen major engagements in the war. All successful. Beyond that, we know
nothing.
ST ‘Nemesis’

Seventeen successful engagements against the Dominion suggests that the Remans were at least a match for the Jem Hadar (and by inference for the Klingons as well).

Reman technical capabilities also seem to have been impressive. On the Reman Warbird Scimitar, a truly awesome ship is represented.

PICARD: Tactical analysis, Mister Worf.
WORF: Fifty-two disruptor banks, twenty-seven photon torpedo bays, primary and secondary shields.
PICARD: She's a predator.
ST Nemesis

The subsequent space battles confirmed that the Scimitar was more than a match for Starfleet’s finest. What is unknown at this stage is the degree of outside assistance needed to produce such a vessel. Was this ship the product of a total Reman effort, or were other powers involved aiming at destabilizing the Star Empire? We have no way at present of knowing.

What we can say is that an oppressed but very dangerous race existed at least in the time of the Dominion War and ‘Nemesis’. Whether the Remans had always been exploited by the Romulans from the beginning of the Empire’s existence, or whether their current situation is due to more recent events, is unknown at present. But it does raise the possibility of an internal uprising by the Remans against their Romulan overlords.

If Romulan oppression was present from the beginning, this uprising may be just the latest in a whole line of rebellions through the ages. Since we have little canon evidence for early Romulan history, we cannot definitely say that earlier uprisings had occurred.

Alternatively, if the current servile nature of the Remans was the result of a more recent Romulan crackdown, the Remans may have reacted violently in a bid to regain their freedom. The timing of the uprising may also fit in to what we do know of Romulan history. 2271 sees a Romulan defeat at Klach D’kel Brakht, 2293 sees the unsuccessful Romulan involvement in the ‘Chang’ affair, while 2311 witnesses the ‘Tomed’ incident, an unknown but bloody incident involving the Federation.

If all these incidents began to undermine the authority of the Praetor and the senate in the eyes of the Romulan populace, a crackdown by the Tal Shiar and government would have been inevitable. If the Remans were more vocal in their concerns than the rest, they may have suffered especially badly, if only to be made an example of. Instead of being a minor population with some rights on Remus, working the dilithium mines, they were instead turned into a race of slave laborers. The fact that Shinzon was able to build the Scimitar at a secret base, without the knowledge of the Romulan military and intelligence services, hints that the Remans once enjoyed more freedom of movement than was the case by the time of ‘Nemesis’.

Regardless of the circumstances, a revolt by a group as deadly as the Remans may have shaken Romulan society to its very foundations. I would liken it to the slave revolt of Spartacus. Initially defeating early Romulan attempts, the Remans may have finally been ground down by superior Romulan numbers. And just like the gladiator slaves, the Remans were too valuable a commodity to totally destroy, being a source of both cheap labour and effective combat troops.

Such a scenario may explain the Praetor’s hostility to an accommodation with Shinzon and the Remans early in ‘Nemesis’.

SURAN: Senators, consider the opportunities for the Empire. At last the destinies of the planets, Romulus and Remus, will be united. Shinzon of Remus is offering us a chance to make ourselves stronger.......It would be madness to resist it. I beg you to not let prejudice or politics interfere with this alliance. By joining Shinzon's forces with ours not even the Federation will be able to stand in our way.
HIREN: That's enough! The decision has been made. The military does not dictate policy on Romulus.
HIREN: The Senate has considered Shinzon's proposal and rejected it. He and his followers will be met with all deliberate force and sent back to that black rock they come from. Do I make myself clear!
ST Nemesis

In the words of shinzon himself,

PICARD: You're doing this to liberate the Remans.
SHINZON: That is the single thought behind everything I have done. From building the Scimitar at a secret base to assembling my army. Finally coming to Romulus in force. I knew they would never give us our freedom. I would have to take it!
ST ‘Nemesis’

Memories of such a bitter, earlier conflict may still have been fresh in the Praetor’s mind. A conflict lasting over 50 years would have been especially bitter to forget.

As before, we have no corroborating information from other episodes or series for this assumption. Given that the Romulans were able to effectively seal their borders, such information may have been successfully contained and denied to outsiders.

But at present, it remains a mere plausible possibility.

The Hirogen
One might think that there could be little to connect the Hirogen of the Delta Quadrant with the Romulans. But a possible connection may be present.

Romulan Warbirds are powered by a unique power system.

DESEVE: Captain, Romulan ships use a forced quantum singularity as a power source. If that system is not functioning perfectly or is damaged even slightly, it might show through the cloak as a magnetic disturbance of some kind.
TNG ‘Face of the Enemy’

And

TROI That's impossible. The Romulans use an artificial quantum singularity as their power source. Once it's activated, it can't be shut down.
TNG ‘Timescapes’

Other powers such as the Federation, Klingons, Cardassians and Ferengi use a matter/antimatter reaction involving dilithium crystals to power their starships. The Borg use transwarp coils and possibly gravimetric drives. The Romulans, however, are unique in that their ships (at least the big warbird designs) make use of a quantum singularity for power. So, how does this involve the Hirogen?

Well, it just so happens that Voyager encountered a relay network in the Delta Quadrant belonging at the time to the Hirogen, VOY ‘Message In a Bottle’, that extended all the way to the Beta Quadrant.

This network was dated to around 100,000 years old. The Hirogen currently control it, but we don’t know whether they were the original builders, or simply commandeered the network after discovering it by accident (this latter idea seems likely given the Hirogen’s current level of technology).

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... le_018.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... le_019.jpg

In VOY ‘Hunters’ we get a startling bit of information concerning the stations making up this sensor network.

KIM: Commander, if my sensors are right, that station is using a quantum singularity as it's power source.
PARIS: A black hole?
KIM: It's a tiny one, probably about a centimetre in diameter, but it's putting out almost four terawatts of energy.
VOY ‘Hunters’

This is the only other occasion in the Star Trek Universe where a quantum singularity is used as a power source. Such a coincidence may be more than mere chance. Can the two be somehow related? We don’t know for certain when the Romulans adopted the quantum singularity power source for their largest warships. The biggest canon warship we have seen them use before the TNG era is the D7 class seen in TOS ‘The Enterprise Incident’ (clearly a dilithium using design). It is unclear whether the later scout and science vessels seen in TNG also use a quantum singularity drive, or the normal dilithium matter/anti-matter system. What is certain is that the D’deridex design definitely does.

We don’t have definite knowledge of when quantum singularities were adopted into the Romulan navy. Was it the culmination of a long period of research, or the acquisition of new outside technology? We don’t have anything specific at this time.

So what are we to make of this situation? Given that this technology is unique and seen in only these two instances, we may speculate that the Romulans, in their expansion coreward, came across the extreme stations of this network before 2311, and started to study the technology, especially the quantum singularity power generation. Perhaps the previous disastrous encounters with the Klingons and Federation had spurred the Star Empire to greater efforts in gaining technical superiority over their galactic rivals. We may further suggest that just as in Voyager, the Hirogen would not have taken this intrusion and appropriation of their ‘property’ kindly. The likely result would have been a fierce conflict, where Hirogen hunting groups would be hunting down and repeling these trespassers, while the Romulan fleet would be trying to secure a valuable technological discovery.

Could such a conflict have lasted over 50 years? If Hirogen hunting groups had started to penetrate the Star Empire’s borders, the outraged Romulans would have used all their forces to repel the attackers. Given the natures of the two combatants, this could have produced a long protracted struggle. On the one hand, the Hirogen are defending what they perceive as their property, while at the same time reveling in hunting a dangerous, advanced species. On the other, the Romulans are defending the borders of their empire while at the same time hanging onto a technology that might just give them an edge in the galactic balance of power. Such a situation could have produced an ongoing, vicious and bloody stalemate for decades. It might have ended only when the Romulans had finally mastered the quantum singularity technology, and withdrawn to their borders to integrate this into their fleet.

An uneasy truce may now lie along this border. On the one hand, the Hirogen have recovered their stations, and are now even more protective of this network (something seen in the Voyager episodes). Losses in the war may have also made them reluctant to continue the struggle.

For their part, the Romulans acquired quantum singularity drives, which are used in the D’deridex class of warbird. We don’t know whether the D’deridex was specifically developed for this technology, or converted to accept it. Whatever the case, it gives considerable advantages for the Star Empire. No longer totally dependant on dilithium, it gives them an inexhaustible power source, and strengthens their fleet to the point of confidently opposing any opponent.

As already stressed, this is educated speculation, based on circumstantial evidence. But possible.

The Caretaker
This suggestion is probably highly unlikely, but I make it because of a similarity in design between the Hirogen relay stations and the Caretaker’s array.

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... rs_369.jpg
(hirogen relay)
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... rs_543.jpg

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r_1105.jpg
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r_0626.jpg
(caretaker array)

The power vanes especially spreading from both structures seem identical. It may be that the array is actually Caretaker technology. The two structures are different colours (the Caretaker’s is a blueish white, the Hirogen their trademark tan/brown colouring). Perhaps the Hirogen modified some or all for their own uses. Or perhaps the Caretaker gave the Hirogen their relay in exchange for some service. We can only speculate.

Maybe the Caretaker offered the same deal to the Romulans, technology (in this case quantum singularity power generation) in exchange for some service of material which they needed.

Perhaps, but this doesn’t really answer the long period (over 53 years) of galactic inaction.

An unknown race
Since we know very little about the bulk of the Beta Quadrant and its inhabitants, it is possible that the Romulans, in their expansion along their other borders, encountered an equally warlike unknown race and engaged in a long struggle for survival. Only future information from later series or movies will confirm whether this is in fact the case.

Internal conflict/civil war
On the grounds of on screen information, this seems one of the more likely explanations.
As Shinzon remarks in ST ‘Nemesis’,

SHINZON: As happens frequently here on Romulus, a new government came to power. They decided to abandon the plan. They were afraid that I might be discovered and that it would lead to war. ...Not quite the face you remember
ST ‘Nemesis’

‘As happens frequently on Romulus’…..We have seen in ‘Nemesis’ how the military are more than willing to destroy their senate and follow a leader who promises them what they desire. If such a situation occurred after the Federation and Klingon disasters, this may have led to a period of internal instability and civil war, necessitating the closure of their borders until the crisis was resolved (the Cardassians reacted similarly in DS9 ‘Way of the Warrior’, closing their borders when the military fell to a civilian government).

The length of this conflict (53 odd years) may reflect the continuing shifting loyalties, jockeying of power and sudden unexpected turn of events common to all Romulan conflicts.

Natural Phenomenon
Another unlikely but possible explanation. Just as the Praxis explosion crippled the Klingon Empire for decades, perhaps some natural occurrence (Super Nova?) dealt a similar blow to the Star Empire. The closing of the borders would then have been necessary to hide the Empires vulnerability from outsiders until the damage was repaired.

Q
A‘long shot’ but possible (given the Q’s irresistible habit of interfering with other races). One Q caused a Vulcan civil war that lasted a century. Perhaps another similarly ‘played’ with the Romulans and instigated some crisis for his own personal pleasure.


The above are just a few suggestions to explain the long Romulan absence. There are probably just as many others. I hope this article prompts other readers to put forward their own ideas.

Some of the above ideas, like internal conflict, Reman revolt and Hirogen intrusion, have some basis of support from on screen behavior. Others, such as Q and natural phenomenon, are more speculative but still possible. Until future writers definitely offer an explanation within the Star Trek franchise, we are left to continue to use our imaginations as to why the Romulans kept to themselves for so long.

Regards

Geon

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Post by KrazeeXXL » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:53 am

nice article geon, but if I want to look at the picutres, I get a 403 - I can't access them. It is forbidden.

will post something about the article itself later. ATM I have to reflect about it and will let the article has its impact on me :)

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Post by geon » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:16 am


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Post by KrazeeXXL » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:33 am

same here, 403, I can't access them - it's still forbidden. Maybe you have to set them up to "can be viewed by public" or something like that.

I remember that I had a similiar problem with 4shared, too. I forgotten to activate a folder and ppl were not able to gain access to it.

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Re: What caused the Romulan isolation?

Post by TurboC » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:30 am

geon wrote:In VOY ‘Hunters’ we get a startling bit of information concerning the stations making up this sensor network.

KIM: Commander, if my sensors are right, that station is using a quantum singularity as it's power source.
PARIS: A black hole?
KIM: It's a tiny one, probably about a centimetre in diameter, but it's putting out almost four terawatts of energy.
VOY ‘Hunters’

This is the only other occasion in the Star Trek Universe where a quantum singularity is used as a power source. Such a coincidence may be more than mere chance. Can the two be somehow related? ... Given that this technology is unique and seen in only these two instances, we may speculate that the Romulans, in their expansion coreward, came across the extreme stations of this network before 2311, and started to study the technology, especially the quantum singularity power generation.
To coin a phrase - "fascinating." Let's investigate further! :lol:



This is the map of the alien sensor network from Message in a Bottle. At the lower edge is the federation starship Prometheus, in "the Alpha Quadrant." Another view:



Here we see the galactic maps from Message In a Bottle and Endgame. The galactic spiral and quadrant markers are consistent. The bright green dots in the first are the alien communications arrays. We see the alien communication network clearly spanning the Delta and ... Beta quadrants. Yes, folks. Despite the dialogue in the episode, the alien sensor net quite clearly spans the Delta and BETA quadrants. Even if you discounted everything else in the image, you cannot escape the fact that the network spans ONLY TWO quadrants, and ADJACENT quadrants at that. The Delta and Alpha quadrants are NOT adjacent.

Later in the episode, they are also nice enough to show the communication path which the doctor took back to Voyager (bright yellow.) Here is a composite of all my episodic sources to date, showing probably one of the most accurate depictions of Voyager's route ever compiled into one image:


Ignoring the wrongly rotated background image in "Year of Hell", everything else matches up. To summarize:

- The communications arrays span large portions of the Delta and Beta quadrants
- The Prometheus was a long way into the Beta quadrant in "Message in a Bottle"
- If Voyager had run a season or two past "Endgame", they would have been in the Beta quadrant
- If you ignore any markers and spin the galactic map so that the edges of the sensor network are in the Alpha and Delta Quadrants, then in Endgame and most of the later seasons, Voyager would have already been in the Beta quadrant
- Regardless of the above, in any conceivable case a large portion of the sensor network is in the Beta quadrant

Follow up thoughts:

- Did the Romulans develop the singularity technology from studying the arrays, or perhaps from studying ancient artifacts of this lost civilization which was left on some of their worlds?
- Voyager's first link with home ("Eye of the Needle") was through a collapsing micro-wormhole which lead to Romulan space. Could this have any relation to the singularity-network spanning the Delta quadrant and Romulan space? A failed attempt at a (or previously collapsed) communications link? Indeed, this micro-wormhole conveniently spans the entire communications network and thus the entire string of singularities. Could the micro-wormhole be a side-effect of it?
- Iconia was found in the Romulan neutral zone in an unspecified quadrant ("Contagion"). Could the Iconians have built the network, to provide quick communication between their many colonies?

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Re: What caused the Romulan isolation?

Post by KrazeeXXL » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:40 am

TurboC wrote: - Iconia was found in the Romulan neutral zone in an unspecified quadrant ("Contagion"). Could the Iconians have built the network, to provide quick communication between their many colonies?
Veritable a fascinating thought. :)
I have to admit that geon's whole Hirogen idea was a little bit suspect and unlikely for me in the beginning. The only connection seemed to be the adjacency to the Beta Quadrant.

But in observance with the age of the communications network an analogy with the Iconians is interesting and imo high likey, too. Although I doubt that this c-network was built by them. The Iconians were able to travel between large distances so I guess they don't needed such a network. Presumably they sent messengers through their gateways.

But in fact that the Iconians had much enemies who were not able to communicate in the same fast way, it is to be assumed that maybe one or some of their enemies combined - developed and created this large network to compensate this humungous tactical advantage. So for me the network seems to be a technology developed trough an arms race.

I doubt that it is from the Hirogen itself. This stands in conflict with their own way of live. High likey they engrossed the com-network as they recognised it's worth to claim their territory and to coordinate combined attacks over large distances.

TurboC wrote:- Did the Romulans develop the singularity technology from studying the arrays, or perhaps from studying ancient artifacts of this lost civilization which was left on some of their worlds?
An interesting and very important thought, too. They seem to use technologies they found to their own advantages. F.e. the warp drive. So indeed, they maybe found ancient tech of one of the worlds they passed. Maybe as they left Vulcan.

Afair lost the Iconians the war and their territory which was high likely in the beta quadrant was conquered by their enemies which used the singularities as a power source. How these superior races decended is unknown. Maybe they fought each others as there was no enemy left. No one knows. But it is high likely that the singularity tech continued even hundreds of thousands of years on some planets or arrays in space which the Romulans finally discovered and began to use for themselves like the Hirogen did.

This whole topic demonstrates the importance to not let high developed technology get hold in the hands of undeveloped races. In case of the quantum singularity tech this wasn't possible. The sequences are unpredictable.

I really like the idea. I allways enjoyed this "found ancient tech on planet xyz" in MoO2. A pity that the developers did not completed this feature in BotF, too.

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Post by beepo » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:28 am

:D Well thought out geon. I enjoy your article in that it presents a possiblity of what could have happened within the empire. Like you said not enough info on their isolation or why. Very cool. :D

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Post by Pigman » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:33 am

Geon

I have same problem as Krazee over the image links. How about hosting them on Imageshack and let us try to see them there?

edit: BTW, I really liked your article and personally favour the Reman internal conflict as the most likely.

Regards

Pigman

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Post by geon » Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:13 am

It's good to see some really interesting ideas coming from this article. I don't know what happened with the pictures.....I'll look into imagshack. Can anyone please give me a crash course in attaching pictures to articles like this????

To Krazeexxl, I agree that the Hirogen are not the likely manufacturers of the relay (unless their ancestors built it, were defeated by the Iconians and the race is still struggling to get back to that level of technology....the hunting mentality could be a survival necessity).

I mention the Hirogen in the context of they being a possible reason for the Romulan isolation....not the makers of the array.

To TurboC, that's an interesting idea about the Iconian connection in relation to the relays. Possible, but without any further evidence, it must remain an intriguing possibility.

If the premise is valid, then, as you say, one or more of their opponents may have developed the array to offset some of the Iconian advantages. But again, at present this must remain speculation.

Given the similarities between the Caretakers station and the arrays, it may have been the Caretaker's race which was responsible. But like the other ideas mentioned, we have at present, no way of knowing.

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Post by marhawkman » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:38 pm

I'm in favor of some sort of "social reorganization".

It makes more sense to me that they developed the power supply on their own and that the resemblence is a coincidence. Quantum power is risky but by no means a unique idea.

The Reman idea is quite good. I would expand on this by them trying to take over and getting reduced to a slave race as punishment. I could visualize something like that taking 50 years.

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Post by geon » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:02 pm

Since the Iconian connection intrigued me. I decided to do a little research into the matter to see if it was possible.

In TNG 'Contagion' we get a time frame for the Iconians.

VARLEY [on monitor]: (Second entry) Personal log. A galactic Rosetta stone. The starfields on the artefact were unintelligible until I took into account two hundred millennia of stellar drift.
TNG 'Contagion'

and

WORF: All major cities have been heavily damaged, and the pattern of destruction is that consistent with large-scale orbital bombardment.
PICARD: How long ago?
DATA: Approximately two hundred thousand years, sir.
TNG ‘Contagion’

The Iconians flourished and were destroyed 200,000 years ago.

The relays are dated in the episode VOY 'Hunters' as,

PARIS: Not exactly what I expected. It looks ancient.
KIM: Radiometric decay rations indicate it's at least one hundred thousand years old.
VOY ‘Hunters’

So, the relays are at least 100,000 years later than the end of the Iconians.

Which means the Iconians are not responsible for their creation.

Sorry TurboC

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Post by TurboC » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:30 am

He said "at least." And would you trust Harry with anything? :lol:

Geez Louise, it was just an idea, not my pet theory. I'm more interested in why the Beta Quadrant is somehow in the Alpha Quadrant or vice versa. :wink:

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Post by KrazeeXXL » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:41 am

if you have the first 100k then the next step to 200k isn't a big deal, if you ask me. ;)

Another thing is that there weren't much big empires this long time ago.
So for me the vague assumption or possibility that the enemies of the Iconians created the c-network still stands.

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Post by marhawkman » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:23 pm

TurboC wrote:He said "at least." And would you trust Harry with anything? :lol:

Geez Louise, it was just an idea, not my pet theory. I'm more interested in why the Beta Quadrant is somehow in the Alpha Quadrant or vice versa. :wink:
Romulan space staddles the border between them. :p

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Post by TurboC » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:56 pm

marhawkman wrote:
TurboC wrote: I'm more interested in why the Beta Quadrant is somehow in the Alpha Quadrant or vice versa. :wink:
Romulan space staddles the border between them. :p
And? You're talking about what is supposed to be correct from the Star Trek canon and I agree. It's also irrelevant. The Prometheus isn't in the Beta Quadrant because it's in or near Romulan space, it's in the Beta Quadrant because the sensor network is shown to span only 2 adjacent quadrants, which must be Delta and Beta. Reread my above posts.

It is possible to ignore the apparent quadrant markers - which, again, match exactly with the quadrant markers from "Endgame" where the names of the quadrants are SPECIFICALLY spelled out. And if you re-mark the quadrants, you could place the Prometheus at the edge of the Alpha quadrant, and about 1/4 of the relay network would be in the Delta Quadrant (the other 3/4 in the Beta Quadrant)


But then I don't believe Voyager's travel between "Message In A Bottle" and "Endgame" could have been all in that relatively small portion of Delta Quadrant, considering Voyager was said to be 30-some thousand LY from Earth before going home through the transwarp conduit. It may be just barely possible, but you have to ignore lots of markers and fudge things to the max.

But you know the real reason -- they didn't WANT to mention the Beta Quadrant, ever. They didn't want Voyager (or anything else) to have to ever be in the Beta Quadrant on their way home, because they thought it would confuse the viewers, or gut the story "they're not in the Delta Quadrant anymore whaaattt??" :roll:

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