The old BotF Diplomacy problem - possible solution?

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Darth_Windu
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The old BotF Diplomacy problem - possible solution?

Post by Darth_Windu » Fri May 29, 2009 11:50 pm

Hi folks,

Now I'm sure you all know of the old BotF Diplomacy problem, that being that you can't have any treaties higher than a non-aggression pact with other Empires because if you do, then you'll never be able to establish relations with minor races in the other Empire.

So I was thinking - would it be at all possible to change things so that regardless of what treaty you sign with the other Empire, you only get the information you'd get with a non-aggression pact? By this I mean only being able to view the overall systems held by that Empire, but not being able to see any details about individual systems until you actually send a ship there.

Possible?

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Re: The old BotF Diplomacy problem - possible solution?

Post by chestermike » Sat May 30, 2009 8:44 am

Darth_Windu wrote:Hi folks,

Now I'm sure you all know of the old BotF Diplomacy problem, that being that you can't have any treaties higher than a non-aggression pact with other Empires because if you do, then you'll never be able to establish relations with minor races in the other Empire.

So I was thinking - would it be at all possible to change things so that regardless of what treaty you sign with the other Empire, you only get the information you'd get with a non-aggression pact? By this I mean only being able to view the overall systems held by that Empire, but not being able to see any details about individual systems until you actually send a ship there.

Possible?
I was going to post something similar to this today, its a problem that could use solving.

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eber3
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Post by eber3 » Sat May 30, 2009 1:30 pm

That would be nice. It's always kind of ruined the diplomatic aspect of the game for me. There are all kinds of treaties that I turn down or ignore simply because this aspect of the game really annoys me.

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Re: The old BotF Diplomacy problem - possible solution?

Post by goodone » Sat May 30, 2009 1:31 pm

Darth_Windu wrote:Now I'm sure you all know of the old BotF Diplomacy problem, that being that you can't have any treaties higher than a non-aggression pact with other Empires because if you do, then you'll never be able to establish relations with minor races in the other Empire.
i am quite sure this was done to prevent misuse of diplomacy for three little steps:
1. quick foreign minors discovery,
2. diplomacy backstab,
3. distant minors stealing.

so, what was the initial need for ur question? :wink:

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Post by Osk » Sat May 30, 2009 1:44 pm

1: limited by your range
2: limited by your treaty: nothing higher than non aggression
3: limited by range

you still havnt adressed the topic. In the series, other races could address seperate member species. you cant. once the bolians are members of the federation and you sign a frienship treaty, they are their members, even if the treaty breaks later on

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Re: The old BotF Diplomacy problem - possible solution?

Post by Darth_Windu » Sat May 30, 2009 10:59 pm

goodone wrote:i am quite sure this was done to prevent misuse of diplomacy for three little steps:
1. quick foreign minors discovery,
2. diplomacy backstab,
3. distant minors stealing.

so, what was the initial need for ur question? :wink:
Why it was done is irrelevant, it's still a bug. You may very well be right in why it happens, but the fact remains that if you have any treaty higher than a non-aggression pact with an Empire that has minor races you haven't encountered yet, you will NEVER, I repeat NEVER be able to establish diplomatic relations with them, regardless of what happens in the game.

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Post by Scatter » Sun May 31, 2009 1:45 am

funny, i quite literally just logged on here to ask about this.

if we could find a fix, it'd be really, really sweet.

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Re: The old BotF Diplomacy problem - possible solution?

Post by goodone » Sun May 31, 2009 3:14 am

Darth_Windu wrote:Why it was done is irrelevant, it's still a bug. You may very well be right in why it happens, but the fact remains that if you have any treaty higher than a non-aggression pact with an Empire that has minor races you haven't encountered yet, you will NEVER, I repeat NEVER be able to establish diplomatic relations with them, regardless of what happens in the game.
i agree this behavior is rather strange, but microprose programmers surely thought it important feature [diplomacy misuse, especially since there is no diplomacy karma [aka nobility], could really affect gameplay].

anyways, i have nothing to object removing this issue on one or another acceptable way, but i do not think it is possible, since it's code based [and still not a constant or a variable we can easily identify and change, but rather a whole program routine].
Osk wrote:1: limited by your range
2: limited by your treaty: nothing higher than non aggression
3: limited by range
i think u misunderstood those steps i mentioned, m8.

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Post by Scatter » Sun May 31, 2009 5:05 am

if it's a "feature", it's an extremely poorly thought through one.

but the fact that you can't make first contact with said minors even after your affiliation with the major ends makes it far, far more likely that this is a rather substantial bug imo.

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Post by Pigman » Sun May 31, 2009 8:07 am

This is a bug as far as I'm concerned, but have had to put up with it from the beginning.

I take it that you all realize that you can still subjugate these minor races, even though you haven't "met them" and even though they still won't appear in the diplomacy screen, they will be in your systems screen and acknowledged in the number of minor races held in the intel empre status screen.

And of course, most importantly, you can still build their special bonus structures.

I'm sure I'm stating the obvious, but just in case anyone didn't know and yes it's very annoying to have to do it this way, especially if your playing as the Feds, but ces't la vie.

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Post by Mentat » Sun May 31, 2009 11:06 am

While I understand your points of view well
imho
A: its no bug
B: its not a poorly thought through feature
C: its the best way to reflect integrity
D: if you ever have/had good relations to another empire, you would probably not openly undermine their relations to one of their member minors by bribing them. In this case well operated intelligence is more at hand.

Of course it would be best if the Major/Minor relation would be reset to unknown(no contact) after such treaties are broken.
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Post by Darth_Windu » Sun May 31, 2009 2:10 pm

A. Yes, it is
B. Assuming it's not a bug, yes, it is
C: No, it isn't
D: This has NOTHING to do with undermining relations with another Empires minor races.

Firstly, if it was, then certainly there would never have been the 'request' button to get a minor race to change over to your side.

Secondly the simple fact is that if your ally then becomes your enemy, this 'well thought out feature' permanently blocks you from establishing any sort of relations with that minor race.

How on earth can you possible say that it isn't a bug, or at the very least a poorly-thought out feature?

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Post by Pigman » Sun May 31, 2009 9:32 pm

Darth_Windu and Mentat

I think we're getting into semantics here and to be honest, it doesn't matter if it's a bug or not, it's very irritating, particularly if you like playing as Feds in single player mode and using their more peaceful means to grow your empire.

It doesn't sit well to have to subjugate these minors that cannot be seen in the diplomacy screen, even if you've walked over their systems!

BTW, I have to go with Darth_Windu on this, as why have the facility to bribe away minors if it's not meant to be used and we have to realize that relationships change, so why shouldn't you be able to tap up one of your enemies minors?

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Post by Scatter » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:00 am

Mentat wrote:D: if you ever have/had good relations to another empire, you would probably not openly undermine their relations to one of their member minors by bribing them. In this case well operated intelligence is more at hand.
but that's a gameplay choice, isn't it?

i'm pretty sure the AI reacts negatively to you stealing its minors...

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Post by goodone » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:34 am

please, ppl, think a bit more about those three little steps i spoke about. it seems none of u grasps them quite yet.

ofc, i agree it's a poorly thought through feature, in a way.
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