Dilemma of better gameplay vs speed (Balance of Power Qs)

[AntonyF]

Hi guys,

I was trying the latest version of the Balance of Power mod. I like this... makes the game 'feel' better in its gameplay. However I find the game gets really slow per turn after about 90 turns. Combine that with actions such as invasion taking longer, it gets a bit painful and I lose interest.

So I played the vanilla game again just now. It zooms by even 120+. However the gameplay doesn't feel as satisfying now, with the erratic AI.

So a couple of questions:

Does anyone know why Balance of Power is slower, is just complexity? Any way to counter it?

Is there another mod that will give it a fresh feel, without changing it too much, and doesn't drop the speed down?

Thanks!
Antony

[DOT]

The problem with any mod is that if the mod supports the building of larger fleets gamespeed is slowed down.
That means, any mod with bigger galaxies, higher max pop, more money, cheaper ships and so on may slow down the game. Unfortunally this are changes most people like, I guess.

[AntonyF]

Thanks for the clarification.

I'd have thought with meatier computers these days it wouldn't post such a problem. My PC is by no means slow.

[trevtones]

Try UDM3 for a whole new birth of the federation feel.



Botf only requires 4 mb's of RAM to run the only thing Ive seen make a difference is tactical battles will run smoother with better ram.

[AntonyF]

Will do, thanks. Not sure if I played an earlier version of that or not. I'll give it a whirl.

[ruthlessferengi]

AntonyF... Game mechanics in SP suck in either mod... in BOP you may excpect a bit more fleets for AI but overall, you won't find nearly the same satisfaction as in playing vs deviant sadistic, totally maddening likes of Carcher, JBL, Pigman, etc

i.e. multiplayer is the way to go whatever mod you choose:) however, in MP, BOP is probably one of the best tested mods, but UDM3 is not too far behind...
cheer,

rf

[Ovarwa]

*slow nod*

I am noticing that with the new, super-mega-huge galaxies, the AI has a problem exploiting the opportunities for super-mega-huge rapid expansion.

I am not a brilliant player, yet it's around turn 90 and I have yet to encounter any of the other majors, though I occupy half the galaxy.

I might have to try again as the Cardassians, whom I believe are the most disadvantaged faction in BoP, especially in a SMH galaxy.

(Am I missing something about the Cardassians in BoP? Their ships are the worst even in comparison to vanilla, they research poorly, they have terrible finances, they have no empire-wide morale structure. Their saving grace is their intel, which is wasted until they find an enemy.

(The Ferengi and Romulans are wonderful though. Both are good colonizers. The Romulan +2 morale kicks in immediately without any investment, and a Romulan colony gets to add a Phoenix facility to the usual colony goodness. The Ferengi need to invest a lot to get the most out of their colonies, but a Ferengi colony oozes cash! Both get beefy, speed 2, long-range ships with scanners early.

(Sometimes I wonder whether a ship speed spread of 2 to 4 might serve better than the current spread of 1-3.)

Anyway,

Ken

[Mentat]

Well if you guys want to have a new fresh feeling for botf, try UDM3.0.0, and wait confidently for the next release of it.

cheers Mentat

as for gamespeed, try to disable systemnames, and any unnecessary additional information in the galaxy view. This helps quite well with the inevitable lag of BOTF at later stages of a game.

[Martok]

I am noticing that with the new, super-mega-huge galaxies, the AI has a problem exploiting the opportunities for super-mega-huge rapid expansion.

I am not a brilliant player, yet it's around turn 90 and I have yet to encounter any of the other majors, though I occupy half the galaxy.

I have to admit some surprise regarding this statement on two fronts:


1.) Personally, the AI seems to be doing a decent job of exploiting the larger maps....and I too am only an average player. I'm still doing noticeably *better* than the other empires, of course, but I wouldn't say I'm at an overwhelming advantage. Currently in my Romulan campaign, I have 34 systems (including 4 minor races). In contrast, the Federation and Cardassians -- the only 2 empires I've encountered so far -- have 27 systems each (with the Feds owning 1 minor race and the Cards 0).

(Even there, my main advantage isn't so much that I have *more* colonies, as it is that most of my colonies are completely terraformed. The UFP & the Union, on the other hand, have quite a few systems where less than half their planets are terraformed so far.)


2.) How the **** do you have over half the galaxy colonized after just 90 turns?? I can only surmise you must've started at a higher tech level than I did -- I myself set all empires in my game(s) to Tech 1 -- but that still astonishes me. I'm over 250 turns into my current Romulan campaign, and even now I've only explored around 1/4 of the entire map!

I might have to try again as the Cardassians, whom I believe are the most disadvantaged faction in BoP, especially in a SMH galaxy.

(Am I missing something about the Cardassians in BoP? Their ships are the worst even in comparison to vanilla, they research poorly, they have terrible finances, they have no empire-wide morale structure. Their saving grace is their intel, which is wasted until they find an enemy.

Cardassian vessels are generally cheaper than that of the other empires. Combined with the fact that their factories have the highest industrial output in the game, they can build ships much more quickly than anyone else.

In almost all other respects, the Cardassians are at least as good as the Klingons: Their research is equal (if not slightly better) and they have an at least somewhat-higher income. And while they don't have an empire-wide morale structure like the Great Hall, their Re-education Centers and Private Farms go a long way towards making up the difference! Finally, as you noted, their intel is unmatched, which does a lot to close whatever gap may exist between them and the other empires.


Don't get me wrong: I do agree with you that the Cards are still probably the weakest empire in the game. It's also certainly possible the larger maps exacerbate the problem (especially due to them not being able to use their intel abilities until they meet other major races).

However, I honestly don't think they're anywhere near as disadvantaged as you feel they are. It's pretty obvious Gowron was keenly -- if not painfully -- aware of how unbalanced the Cardassians were in the vanilla game, and it's equally clear he's put in a lot of effort into making them more viable and competitive. I know that at least in my own experience, they're a hell of a lot better than they used to be.

(The Ferengi and Romulans are wonderful though. Both are good colonizers. The Romulan +2 morale kicks in immediately without any investment, and a Romulan colony gets to add a Phoenix facility to the usual colony goodness. The Ferengi need to invest a lot to get the most out of their colonies, but a Ferengi colony oozes cash! Both get beefy, speed 2, long-range ships with scanners early.

Agreed. I especially love how balanced the Romulans feel in BOP. They were already my favorite race in vanilla BOTF, but now they're even that much better! Their research & intel abilities, their simple yet effective order of battle (gotta love Warbirds and R'derex strike cruisers!)....even their diplomacy just feels "right".

As for the Ferengi, words cannot express how glad I am they've been toned down in this mod. They were horribly overpowered in the original game, and while they're still definitely a force to be reckoned with in BOP, their advantages (especially in terms of money & economics) aren't nearly as overwhelming as before. I can actually enjoy playing them now, as it's no longer an automatic (and absurdly easy) "Monty Haul" campaign. True, their hefty income still gives them a big leg up, but it's much less ridiculous than it used to be.

(Sometimes I wonder whether a ship speed spread of 2 to 4 might serve better than the current spread of 1-3.)

Anyway,

Ken

Certainly that would make a certain amount of sense on the larger maps. However, that would also require Gowron having to re-tweak and readjust the ship speeds for *two* different versions -- regular BOP and the big-map BOP -- and I very much doubt he's got that kind of time or energy.

Even as it is, I really am okay with how ship speeds stand right now. I will admit I feel that colony ships & troop transports could benefit from having a speed of 2, but that's still a pretty minor thing for me. I'm enjoying this mod more than I ever have since the newest version was released, and just about any criticisms I have of BOP are mere quibbles at this point.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

1.) Personally, the AI seems to be doing a decent job of exploiting the larger maps....and I too am only an average player. I'm still doing noticeably *better* than the other empires, of course, but I wouldn't say I'm at an overwhelming advantage. Currently in my Romulan campaign, I have 34 systems (including 4 minor races). In contrast, the Federation and Cardassians -- the only 2 empires I've encountered so far -- have 27 systems each (with the Feds owning 1 minor race and the Cards 0).

I just encountered the Cardassians, Turn 95. They have 14 systems and I have 84.

I'm still expanding.

I have a Romulan game stalled around Turn 55 in which I have around 1/4 of the galaxy with no enemy contact.

2.) How the **** do you have over half the galaxy colonized after just 90 turns?? I can only surmise you must've started at a higher tech level than I did -- I myself set all empires in my game(s) to Tech 1 -- but that still astonishes me. I'm over 250 turns into my current Romulan campaign, and even now I've only explored around 1/4 of the entire map!

I start at level 3 (all techs are 4). This might make a difference; I have four big systems plugging away at ships! Three build nothing but colony ships and the main system builds nothing but Marauders. Five or six turns ago, I had one of the colony ship producers change over to Marauders after building a training center. The Romulan game is similar, except that I build Warbirds instead of Marauders and still have all three of the other systems churning out colony ships.

Both Romulans and Ferengi are amazing colonizers, even though both have poor industry. The Ferengi make up for that with money. The Romulans make up for that by not having to worry about defensive intel and by not having to pay nearly as much to get their colonies up and running-- +2 morale comes free!

(Am I missing something about the Cardassians in BoP?.....

Cardassian vessels are generally cheaper than that of the other empires. Combined with the fact that their factories have the highest industrial output in the game, they can build ships much more quickly than anyone else.

Sort of.

Their vessels are less expensive, but they also get lesser vessels. They pay less for maintenance, true, but they also have the second worst free maintenance based on population--and their ships aren't as good, so the less expensive maintenance does not reflect any kind of bargain.

As for industry, there's no question that the Cardassians have it good. Very good. But getting that industry up and running is a trick, especially if you start at level 1! (I rarely start at level 1 because the factions feel mostly the same until the techs reach 3 or 4.)

.....

In almost all other respects, the Cardassians are at least as good as the Klingons: Their research is equal (if not slightly better) and they have an at least somewhat-higher income. And while they don't have an empire-wide morale structure like the Great Hall, their Re-education Centers and Private Farms go a long way towards making up the difference! Finally, as you noted, their intel is unmatched, which does a lot to close whatever gap may exist between them and the other empires.

The Klingons have awesome ships in the latest version. I previously preferred the Romulans and Ferengi because each empire has a single vessel that is extremely versatile, and that updates every other tech: A Marauder or Warbird is a great long-range scout during exploration and a fleet of either can do many things. The Klingon ships are better now, as they should be.

They get a free +1 Morale on each colony and can add a second +1. They do get less from each colony than the Cardassians, though. Klingons are best when they get to use those powerful vessels, and they won't in a huge galaxy.

Don't get me wrong: I do agree with you that the Cards are still probably the weakest empire in the game. It's also certainly possible the larger maps exacerbate the problem (especially due to them not being able to use their intel abilities until they meet other major races).

However, I honestly don't think they're anywhere near as disadvantaged as you feel they are. It's pretty obvious Gowron was keenly -- if not painfully -- aware of how unbalanced the Cardassians were in the vanilla game, and it's equally clear he's put in a lot of effort into making them more viable and competitive. I know that at least in my own experience, they're a hell of a lot better than they used to be.

Strange. The Cardassians were one of my favorite factions in vanilla, especially at the highest tech settings. They gained morale from everything they did, even breaking treaties. They didn't research well, but they didn't need to research past Galor II, level 9. They didn't need good finance because they could scrap the ships they build so quickly and gain full value. Their intel was brutal.

That's the problem with the Cardassians, I think: They are either too good or not good enough, depending on the starting conditions. Industry is less valuable in BoP than in vanilla, which hits the Cardassians hard. But even in BoP, in a small galaxy with an accelerated start, the Cardassians are probably too good! The Federation, Klingons and Ferengi will not survive a Turn 8 first contact with a fully armed and operational Obsidian Order. (With 9 systems at the highest level! Ouch.)

I do love Gowron's mod. I've tried UDM and it was ok, but BoP feels good. Getting rid of the ship upgrade exploit was critical, and eliminating the endless upgrading of food, energy and industry facilities very nice. I also enjoy the trend toward ship upgrades every other level.

Agreed. I especially love how balanced the Romulans feel in BOP. They were already my favorite race in vanilla BOTF, but now they're even that much better! Their research & intel abilities, their simple yet effective order of battle (gotta love Warbirds and R'derex strike cruisers!)....even their diplomacy just feels "right".

I never found much use for strike cruisers. So slooowwww.

As for the Ferengi, words cannot express how glad I am they've been toned down in this mod. They were horribly overpowered in the original game, and while they're still definitely a force to be reckoned with in BOP, their advantages (especially in terms of money & economics) aren't nearly as overwhelming as before. I can actually enjoy playing them now, as it's no longer an automatic (and absurdly easy) "Monty Haul" campaign. True, their hefty income still gives them a big leg up, but it's much less ridiculous than it used to be.

I might be missing something here. I always liked to play the Ferengi, but didn't see them as overpowered in vanilla. A fleet of Kvorts could cut them down to size, as could the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order. Their Marauder II was a beautiful ship, but when does a game ever last long enough for the Ferengi to get one?

If anything, I like the Ferengi even more now. Great finances, worthy (non-Green!) ships. Finance actually matters now that ships cannot be scrapped for full value. I valued finance a lot less in vanilla, when Industry served just as well.

(Sometimes I wonder whether a ship speed spread of 2 to 4 might serve better than the current spread of 1-3.)

Certainly that would make a certain amount of sense on the larger maps. However, that would also require Gowron having to re-tweak and readjust the ship speeds for *two* different versions -- regular BOP and

I mean even on the smaller maps. I see a situation where one empire has a ship at speed 1, and a rival has a similar ship at speed 2 as more problematic than one in which the difference is 2:3. I'm looking at the ratios.

Even as it is, I really am okay with how ship speeds stand right now. I will admit I feel that colony ships & troop transports could benefit from having a speed of 2, but that's still a pretty minor thing for me. I'm enjoying this mod more than I ever have since the newest version was released, and just about any criticisms I have of BOP are mere quibbles at this point.

BoP is my favorite, no question about it!

Anyway,

Ken

[Ovarwa]

ooops!

I mangled the quotes on my last post. Fixed.

--Ken