Balance of Power Review

Balance of Power Mod; showcase and support/discussion/questions/suggestions/reviews

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Martok
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Post by Martok » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:29 pm

Dewbacca wrote:A couple of questions about this mod that I couldn't find addressed in documentation:

1- Why were B'rel class scouts reduced to a scanner range of one?

Well most ships in BOP now have a scanner range of only 1 (with the Feds being the exception), so that's a general change across the board. I know Gowron did it mainly for balancing reasons, and to make ships that do have an extended scanning ability more valuable.

Dewbacca wrote:2-If the exploit using the colony/ transport team to terraform planets was removed intentionally.

Yes, it was intentional. One of the big things for Gowron in creating this mod was to remove a lot of the game's exploits, including the insta-terraforming bit (which personally, I really appreciate).

Dewbacca wrote:I'd like to salute Gowron for the improvements to the mod ove rthe years, and a couple of points particularly:

a-Food and Energy buildings auto updating is genius!

I concur. Indeed, his whole idea of reducing/streamlining the building upgrades is little short of brilliant IMHO. I really like that he eliminated half the factory upgrades as well; it really cuts down on needless micromanagement!

Dewbacca wrote:b-Loving the Larger maps... was looking forward to some of the Planet mod style homeworlds... but the map size and credit fixes seem to compensate well.

Again, I agree. And FWIW, most star systems in BOP are now a pretty decent size anyway, which makes it more balanced for all players including the AI.

Dewbacca wrote:Anyway, glad to see the improvements and the interface with the multi-installer.

Kudos to you for your years of code breaking on this game and sharing it with the community.

Seconded. I'm still playing BOTF on a regular basis, and it's due in no small part to Gowron, thunderchero, and many other talented folks who've put in so much effort over the years. 8)
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Post by Dewbacca » Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:15 pm

A quick note... am baffled that I cannot build a starbase at the other end of a wormhole. Is this intended? It leaves me with no range and no means to explore the other side.

I understand (although it breaks canon) that we cannot explore the other side without first building a starbase. Maybe bring it closer to the story line if you could have "some range" with a starbase (Deep Space IX ) on my side of the wormhole... but I think it would be more logical gamewise to have the player build a starbase to have any range to explore.

Also conquered Cardassia and noted I cannot build a puppet government. :( Will check Documentation to see if that is intended or noted as well.

Benefits acknowledged:
I like the colony ship/transport bug fixed, but feel it should be documented.
I like Dilithium refineries not requiring energy, its a dilithium refinery.
Additional training facilities are appreciated as well.
Tell me again... where are we going, and why are we in a handbasket?

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Post by Martok » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:23 am

Dewbacca wrote:A quick note... am baffled that I cannot build a starbase at the other end of a wormhole. Is this intended? It leaves me with no range and no means to explore the other side.

That's odd. I can build starbases on the other sides of wormholes, no problem. (I even double-checked in my Federation campaign just now to make sure.) :? You're playing the most recent version of BOP, yes?

Dewbacca wrote:Also conquered Cardassia and noted I cannot build a puppet government. :( Will check Documentation to see if that is intended or noted as well.

That's a result of a bug (feature?) hard-coded into the vanilla version of BOTF. I don't remember how the technical explanation goes anymore, but what it boils down to is that the game will not let you build Puppet Governments on any of the major races' homeworlds (Cardassia, Ferenginar, Qo'Nos, Romulus, and Sol).

Dewbacca wrote:Benefits acknowledged:
I like the colony ship/transport bug fixed, but feel it should be documented.

From section 2.3.1 (Terraforming) of BOP's ReadMe file:

"A combination of a troop transport and a colony ship will no longer terraform any planet instantly. Troop transports can still help with terraforming, but they only terraform 1000 points (type I), 2000 points (type II) resp. 3000 points (type III) per turn." :wink:

Dewbacca wrote:I like Dilithium refineries not requiring energy, its a dilithium refinery.

Ditto that. I also really appreciate that Private Farms and Bunker Networks (including most race-specific ones, such as those built by the Selay and Nausicaans) no longer need power either. I never understood why these structures would require energy, and was very pleased to see that BOP addressed this. :)

Dewbacca wrote:Additional training facilities are appreciated as well.

Again, I concur. While I don't find them as useful for actually training ships, they're still invaluable in that it means your homeworld is no longer the only system in your empire that can build ships with Regular crews (as opposed to Green ones). It also helps equalize things for the Ferengi a bit, not that they need a whole lot of help IMO. :lol:
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Post by thunderchero » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:27 am

The only place I know of that a outpost/starbase can not be built, is if it is a sector of one of the other empires or a disputed sector.
Martok wrote:
Dewbacca wrote:Also conquered Cardassia and noted I cannot build a puppet government. :( Will check Documentation to see if that is intended or noted as well.

That's a result of a bug (feature?) hard-coded into the vanilla version of BOTF. I don't remember how the technical explanation goes anymore, but what it boils down to is that the game will not let you build Puppet Governments on any of the major races' homeworlds (Cardassia, Ferenginar, Qo'Nos, Romulus, and Sol).
this is not a bug but intended, system requierments is set to subjugated system. You would need special (second) scructure for conquered home system.

And Gowron has extra building slot if he wants to use it.

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Post by Dewbacca » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm

The only place I know of that a outpost/starbase can not be built, is if it is a sector of one of the other empires or a disputed sector.
Just discovering that the Wormhole comes out in Federation Territory, mystery resolved, game behaving properly and having a Great time!!

As for the line in Documentation I missed, I'll review that, see if I am current or just missed it reading while I should be sleeping. But I poured over it looking for that specific information, read everything I found about terraforming and colonizing.

Starting a tech 1 game and trying to get those big systems up and running was rough, but now that I have colony fleets, I'm doing fine.
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Post by Jellico » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:41 pm

...
Last edited by Jellico on Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Borgus » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:48 pm

Tried out BoP1.2b and found:


AI does not build dilithium generating structures
I know it doesn't need them, but it would be ...hmmm... fair to have it build them.
And it would be less annoying if one conquers the planets.



Strangely enough, it doesn't seem to build ships at a decent rate either
Just if it does need the dilithium ...


Minor AIs are crippled due to low growth even with full terraform,
they "normally" only get 0.1% growth per planet in their system
I would consider this a major bug ...


Ships are not balanced, but screwed up
.. check Cardassian ship list: 1 with scan-2, everything dead slow, etc.
.. what plainly is decently un-fun !!



Even non-extralarge map BoP uses modified planet distribution,
resulting in way too much dilithium carrying systems, way to high system bonus modifiers etc.,
completely removing "quality of system" as a strategic variable
As I understood the readme, the modified distribution shouldn't apply to the standard map game,
so I would consider this a bug. And if I understood wrong, I would this consider this a design bug.
Maybe, it's a design bug in every case, as the modified planetary systems are un-fun to me, too, like the ships, in any case.

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Post by Gowron » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:20 pm

Jellico wrote: 1) While lots of huge planetary systems aid the AI to be more competitive, somewhat variety has imho been lost. Perhaps setting the minimal population to ~160 Mio (I agree that tiny vanilla systems are useless) and throw in one or two gas giants would be a good idea?
I'll revisit the population limit for free systems before the next update. Maybe the upper limit should be decreased a bit.
The lower limit is already at 150, btw ;)
Jellico wrote: 2) Replace the Starfleet Frigate IV which something more modern (Saber, Steamrunner?).
Yep, the Miranda class is indeed a bit old. The Cheyenne class would be a good "modern" frigate, but I haven't seen it as a ship model for it yet.
Jellico wrote: I'm not sure if it is a mod-dependent problem, but occasionally an empire seems to have several starving systems (intel sabotage?) stuck at 9 Mio and doesn't solve that dilemma by buying some automated farms. Maybe related: if a system declares independence, no progress or population growth appears to occur.
The former is a general problem of the AI and we probably won't be able to do something about it in the near future.
The latter is "normal", I guess.
Jellico wrote: Minor: during a test game, a task force consisting of a stolen Ferengie Raider and a Federation Frigate read "2 Raider IIs" instead of "2 starships".
That's normal and mod-independent.
Jellico wrote: Thank you for all the effort you put into BOP!

Jellico
You're welcome :)
Borgus wrote:Tried out BoP1.2b and found:


AI does not build dilithium generating structures
I know it doesn't need them, but it would be ...hmmm... fair to have it build them.
And it would be less annoying if one conquers the planets.



Strangely enough, it doesn't seem to build ships at a decent rate either
Just if it does need the dilithium ...


Minor AIs are crippled due to low growth even with full terraform,
they "normally" only get 0.1% growth per planet in their system
I would consider this a major bug ...


Ships are not balanced, but screwed up
.. check Cardassian ship list: 1 with scan-2, everything dead slow, etc.
.. what plainly is decently un-fun !!



Even non-extralarge map BoP uses modified planet distribution,
resulting in way too much dilithium carrying systems, way to high system bonus modifiers etc.,
completely removing "quality of system" as a strategic variable
As I understood the readme, the modified distribution shouldn't apply to the standard map game,
so I would consider this a bug. And if I understood wrong, I would this consider this a design bug.
Maybe, it's a design bug in every case, as the modified planetary systems are un-fun to me, too, like the ships, in any case.
1. The current version of BoP is v1.2a. There is no v1.2b yet.

2. You are wrong, the AI does build Dilithium refineries. In fact, the AI can and will even build refineries in non-Dilithium systems.

3. The AI is still the same as in the vanilla game. It builds ships, but obviously not as fast as a human planer, at least at the higher starting levels.

4. Minor races are completely unaffected by planetary growth rates.

5. Cardassians have one ship line with scanners, just like in vanilla, but in BoP that ship line is actually useful aside from scanning.
Maximum available ship speeds in vanilla: Card. 2, Fedr. 4, Ferg. 4, Klng. 3, Roml. 3.
Maximum available ship speeds in BoP: Card. 2, Fedr. 3, Ferg. 3, Klng. 3, Roml. 2.
Do the math.

6. Planet distribution has absolutely no influence on Dilithium. As for the planetary bonuses, see the documentation, section 2.2.1.


Congratulations Borgus for making five completely void/wrong points while playtesting a version that does not even exist yet!
This is no mean feat.
A discovery consists in seeing something everybody has seen and at the same time thinking something nobody has thought yet.

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Post by goodone » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:49 pm

roflmao!!! :D

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Post by Prometheus » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:56 pm

Gowron wrote: Congratulations Borgus for making five completely void/wrong points while playtesting a version that does not even exist yet!
This is no mean feat.
Hahahaha, Gowron stop plz, ur killin' me over here. :lol:
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Post by Cabbages » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:58 am

Hi I've been playing the bop mod and yea it's great, really makes thing more intresting, but i've got to the stage where I have about 200 ships if not more and if i build more ships my credit per turn goes from 15000+ to - 33000. Then no matter what i do I stay at -33000 unless i scrap a bunch of ships and then it goes back up to 15000+

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Re: Balance of Power Review

Post by Brainsuker » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:33 pm

I don't know if this mod is still maintained or not, as I come too late to the party. But I like BoP

Ok, I have a problem in the game I played. It happens when I play as Klingon and I attack the Minor Race Acamarian World (to conquer them)
I play the starting level 1 (the beginning) and now have level 4 techs. The Acamarians homeworld has 415 people, 15 batteries, and 1000 ground troops. My fleet consist of 5 Heavy Cruiser II, 13 B'rel Class BOP II, and 12 Battle Cruiser II. I have around 7 Troop Transport I (but not in the warzone yet). Well, I have several K'vort Class Heavy BOP, but I put them on patrols ( I don't use them to invade Acamarian System)

Now I attack the Acamarian Homeworld, and a lot of my ships are destroyed. it cause around 20 million death of Acamarian, destroy some buildings, but no Batteries being destroyed? I lost most of my ships in that invasion and Acamarian defense is still intact. So please give me a tips to kick this "Minor" Race's ass and make "Her" surrender to my knee. How many more ships I require to conquer such a well developed Minor Race as Acamarian.

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Re: Balance of Power Review

Post by Martok » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:54 am

Welcome to the forums, Brainsuker! Glad you're enjoying BOP as much as I am. :)




With respect to your question/problem, the big thing to keep in mind is that Orbital Batteries are beefed up considerably in BOP. They have a lot more firepower (per energy tech level) than in the vanilla game.


Subsequently, you need a *lot* more ships to take out an orbital battery in Balance of Power. (I find I generally want at least a 3-to-1 ratio.)

This is especially true with the K'Tinga-class battlecruisers, as their shields/hull are not quite strong enough to resist the OB's firepower individually. Vor'Cha-class cruisers are actually a much better choice for engaging orbital batteries (and later on the Neg'Vhar-class battleships).



(Personally, I ended up modifying the minor races' orbital batteries so that they're much less powerful than those of the major races. It's an artificial "fix" with no logical justification for it, but I find it makes things a lot easier for the more militaristic races in their early expansion.)
Last edited by Martok on Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Balance of Power Review

Post by Brainsuker » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:18 am

Whaaaaaaat? 3 to 1? Then... then I need 45 ships to destroy 15 batteries? The what about the other Minor Race who have 30 batteries? Poor Klingon, how would you expand then?

So about this... beef down the Minor Race OB, how do you do that? I'm new here, so I don't know anything about anything.


but, Thanks for the quick reply. It helps me a lot.

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Re: Balance of Power Review

Post by Martok » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:29 am

Brainsuker wrote:Whaaaaaaat? 3 to 1? Then... then I need 45 ships to destroy 15 batteries?

In fairness, you don't really need *that* many ships; you could likely pull out a successful invasion with closer to 30 cruisers. However, your assault fleet is going to suffer a significantly higher rate of loss (probably at least half your fleet).

This is why I have a personal preference for a 3-to-1 ratio: It gives me a more acceptable rate of loss, closer to around a third of my ships.


In fact, now that I think about it, it seems to be a fairly straightforward inverse relationship between how many more ships you have versus how many ships you lose during the invasion: If your fleet outnumbers the orbital batteries 2:1, you lose around 1/2 your fleet; if you outnumber them 3:1, you lose around 1/3 of your fleet; if you outnumber them 4:1, you lose around 1/4 of your fleet; etc.


Brainsuker wrote:The what about the other Minor Race who have 30 batteries? Poor Klingon, how would you expand then?

Exactly. That's why I ended up nerfing the orbital batteries for minor races; otherwise it makes expansion too difficult for the Klingons, Cardassians, and (to some extent) the Romulans.


Brainsuker wrote:So about this... beef down the Minor Race OB, how do you do that? I'm new here, so I don't know anything about anything.

I did it with a very useful tool called Ultimate Editor. Even idiots like me can use it. ;)

UE was created by a fellow here named DCER. You can get (and read about) it here:
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