BOTF 2

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Should BOTF be remade whilst keeping its charm?

I think a renewed BOTF will deffinately show gamers that this game is the best game that has ever been made
61
91%
I either like the original BOTF and spend my time just remodding it continuously or just give up with trying to keep up with 21st century gaming tech
6
9%
 
Total votes: 67

Xordan
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Post by Xordan » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:04 pm

True :)

Two unrelated questions;

What software is usually used to model ships with now? e.g. Blender, 3ds max.

I was pondering a 3d grid instead of a 2d one. Any thoughts on whether this would be a good idea (from a gameplay perspective)? I'm unsure :)

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Post by Flocke » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:08 pm

mike strobel once set up a site for sharing artwork between all the botf2 projects, there's already lots of artwork and I'm sure you'd get permission:
http://www.botf2.com/Image%20Library/Fo ... Items.aspx ;)

edit: I use Blender 3D, others use 3dsmax, but that's unimportant cause there are importers and exporters for nearly everything.

with a 3d galaxy grid it's easy to loose the overview, you'd have to think well about, I'd not recommend it but agree it would be interesting if you find a good way to handle it. You'd have to experiment alot else the game will become unplayable
Last edited by Flocke on Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Xordan
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Post by Xordan » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:13 pm

Brilliant, thanks.

Yeah, that's my worry too. 3D would bring a whole new dimension (har har..) to the game perhaps. Something to be tried I suppose.

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Post by thunderchero » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:24 pm

Xordan wrote:What software is usually used to model ships with now? e.g. Blender, 3ds max.
as long as it would get away from BSP model and use Z-buffer it would help with model creation regardless of format used to create. and since most modelers save all file during creation, converting to any format would not be a large task.

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Post by Xordan » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:29 pm

thunderchero wrote:As long as it would get away from BSP model and use Z-buffer it would help with model creation regardless of format used to create. and since most modelers save all file during creation, converting to any format would not be a large task.
My engine has its own model format (not BSP based). We have exporters from both blender and 3dsmax so those should be fine.

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Post by anjel » Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:46 pm

well, it´s really interesting what i´ve been reading, i would like to help in 3D aspect, though nowadays i´m a little bit occupied, but i´m always eaggier to improve myself in 3D moddeling if time allows.
Xordan do you have examples i can see about your engine, i just want to see how complex can be the 3D moddels, for example ships.
Live long and propser

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Post by Flocke » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:31 am

anjel wrote:do you have examples i can see about your engine, i just want to see how complex can be the 3D moddels, for example ships.
http://www.crystalspace3d.org/main/Media
The models can go quite some more detailed, but don't exaggerate cause effects like shaders consume alot performance. For minor detail better use bumpmaps or normalmaps. ;)
At best make a really detailed model to generate the bumpmaps for a less detailed version with just enough vertices to get a smooth outer-shape.
The exporter (I assume) will automaticly generate further less detailed versions and the engine makes use of LoD (Level of Detail - maybe even automaticly computed - I dunno) to reduce the poly count in game.
Would I be wrong to say better keep below 20000 for giving older machines and effects a chance? I think 20000 is already pretty high. Xordan? :roll:
Edit: Having looked at some screens, I think below 10000 is a better guide.

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Post by Xordan » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:46 am

Well, depends on your target system and how many ships are likely to be used in a fight. Rendering is object limited rather than triangle limited.

If 1000 ship fights are desired I would keep the triangle count limited to 5k (5mill, minus LOD, is quite a lot).
You could go to 10 or even 20k, but you'll begin to limit the number of ships you'll be able to have.
Normal (and height) maps should be used to create fine detail (specular maps for some shine too). Normal maps should be tangent space btw.

The engine has a tool to generate LOD for meshes (and an adaptive LOD system to change detail based on frame rate).

Edit: I also notice that the ships seem to consist of multiple objects.... that will kill performance :) Each ship needs to be a single object (the textures need to be combined into a single texture).

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Post by Xordan » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:40 pm

So I've decided to give this a go. I'm still working on the core systems right now, but I'm making decent progress. It's turning out pretty nicely so far I think. Time allowing I'll have something playable by the end of October.

Combat preview... would look better with a nicer ship model, I need to get self-shadowing working too. The camera code is finished at least, both for combat and for moving/rotating the 3d galaxy map (screenshots will appear once I finish that).

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Post by Flocke » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:31 pm

that's great news, and a nice screen as well!

I'd like to hear more about your plans and concepts.
And I'm eager to see your 3D map of course. :)

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Post by Tethys » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:40 pm

I would be willing to do *some* artwork as far as GUI is related, I think I might have some expertise there. Just give me a file format to go with, some dimensions, races, and I think we should be in business. As far as structures go, I dont think I could help u there. Ships I can do (as far as build pics are concerned) since I have a nice game Bridge Commander with many extra ships. Again, dimensions and races.

Only thing I would lack is time, but its slowly opening up to me lately ;)
Xordan wrote:Brilliant, thanks.

Yeah, that's my worry too. 3D would bring a whole new dimension (har har..) to the game perhaps. Something to be tried I suppose.
Maybe an option to change between views or experimental features/addons
Not for the weak of heart...
Image
GALM <--- GALM/Galaxies Mod

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Post by Xordan » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:39 pm

Flocke wrote:I'd like to hear more about your plans and concepts.
And I'm eager to see your 3D map of course. :)
Yeah, I should make a wiki or something to jot down my thoughts. Currently I'm trying to make sure I make the structure of the game as flexible as possible and to get all the 3d stuff sorted. I'll concentrate a bit more on gameplay soon. I've been trying to scan through some threads here to see what people seem to want most, other than more minor races etc. :P
Tethys wrote:I would be willing to do *some* artwork as far as GUI is related, I think I might have some expertise there. Just give me a file format to go with, some dimensions, races, and I think we should be in business. As far as structures go, I dont think I could help u there. Ships I can do (as far as build pics are concerned) since I have a nice game Bridge Commander with many extra ships. Again, dimensions and races.
I'm using CEGUI for the interface, so it'll be standard stuff. PNG format for the skin images, and those images batched together into big textures as much as possible, most of the gui tiled with those images.

One thing I'm unsure about is the layout of the 2D interface. Design of that kind of thing isn't really my forte.. however I'm sure the BOTF interface can be greatly improved upon... Any input on this would be welcome.

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Post by Tethys » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:34 pm

No problem, here is examples of some of my GUIing for the Borg (which was the Ferengi) in my mod Galaxies:

viewtopic.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopi ... &start=240

As far as layout is concerned, I would most likely stick to what was familiar in regards to BotF, with possibly some experimental buttons and things like that. I would first make a *complete* template (containing all buttons images etc) for proposal and let you decide ultimately, since this is your project. Thanks for letting me help, and I cant stress enough that time is what I lack most of, but I am pretty sure I can do this in spare time (sorry Galaxies fans :( )
Not for the weak of heart...
Image
GALM <--- GALM/Galaxies Mod

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Post by Xordan » Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:00 pm

Tethys wrote:No problem, here is examples of some of my GUIing for the Borg (which was the Ferengi) in my mod Galaxies:

viewtopic.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopi ... &start=240

As far as layout is concerned, I would most likely stick to what was familiar in regards to BotF, with possibly some experimental buttons and things like that. I would first make a *complete* template (containing all buttons images etc) for proposal and let you decide ultimately, since this is your project. Thanks for letting me help, and I cant stress enough that time is what I lack most of, but I am pretty sure I can do this in spare time (sorry Galaxies fans :( )
Cool. I'll probably start to implement all the GUI functionality in a couple of weeks. All the GUI layout is changable in xml files anyhow, so I suppose people will be free to try their own configs out if they want. One thing I really disliked about the BOTF GUI is how bulky it is. I like slim, sleek interfaces.

I'd prefer this to become more of a community project than 'my' project. If I'm the only one who enjoys playing it then it would kinda defeat the point of making it :D

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Post by marhawkman » Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:26 pm

Yeh BOTF has a lot of decorative flourishes everywhere.

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