BOTF2; support/discussion/questions

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Should BOTF be remade whilst keeping its charm?

I think a renewed BOTF will deffinately show gamers that this game is the best game that has ever been made
I either like the original BOTF and spend my time just remodding it continuously or just give up with trying to keep up with 21st century gaming tech
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Post by mstrobel »

C++/CLI tends to have the best interop capabilities, and some bits of Supremacy are written in C++/CLI anyway. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of hosting your combat system in the game, especially if it were largely self-contained/componentized.

Looking forward to seeing some bits from you, even if they are only tech demos.
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Post by Cdrwolfe »

mstrobel wrote: First, Supremacy has never had a combat system. CdrWolfe independently set out to work on an experimental game that some people hoped could eventually be used in whole or in part for our eventual tactical combat implementation. Truth is, Wolfe has a long way to go in learning solid software engineering practices, and there was no way he would have developed a system robust enough to ship with the game--at least not the first time around. My expectation has always been that I'll end up developing the combat system myself, unless of course I can snag a talented and experienced engineer to help out ;).
Ouch :D and just on my BDay :P

Brutal but true.

Still it was an enjoyable experience trying but failing I suppose, I learned a lot in the process.

Supremacy seems to be ticking along nicely, I always try and nip in to the forums now and again.

Best of luck and kind regards

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Post by mstrobel »

Just a simple truth of software engineering, Wolfe. It takes a couple years before you really get a grasp on good patterns and practices, robust error handling, etc. But it was a great project to learn from, and I knew you'd have a lot of fun with it, so I didn't want to discourage you :).

God help us if I had tried to pull off something like Supremacy without a C.S. degree and a couple years of professional experience behind me. Just for kicks, I should try to find the ghetto-fabulous remake of Oregon Trail I wrote for my second year C.S class. :lol:

Oh, and happy birthday!
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Post by Flocke »

Well, there's lots to learn on programming, isn't it? :lol:
For a first attempt and learning about 3D programming (it's more than programming, it's 3D, you know? :mrgreen:), what I've seen from the combat was really nice CdrWolfe.
In programming you often need several attempts to get the right concept when going the explorative way. And well, I don't want to say any bad on C.S. in general, but programming isn't what gets teached at my university. :P :lol:

Now that you have some experience it'll be easier to get the grasp on all those design patterns and practices (I won't care too much about, but it's good to know them). I'm sure if you give programming another attempt you'll get better results. I don't want to count my own attempts. :roll:

And for 3D, I'd recommend to use the language your graphics library is written in next time. :mrgreen: (the documentation is so much better *g*)

I'm looking forward to updates. Am eager to see first results/snapshots from your project Xordan, and havn't read any news on Supremacy for a long time either, but sounds like there's still active development. :D

Oh and happy birthday CdrWolfe btw! :)
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Post by mstrobel »

Indeed, big projects are the best way to learn. In my opinion, the best way to get a solid grasp on software architecture is through exploration (and a lot of code scrapping and rewriting along the way ;)). Wolfe's project was definitely impressive in that he managed to learn a lot about 3D graphics and put that knowledge to practical use. His weak points, as with any beginner developer, would have been in the architecture and (most importantly) fault tolerance. Thus, even though his combat system may have looked and played well, it probably would have required a complete rewrite in order to achieve the level of robustness necessary to ship in a game (even an open source game like Supremacy). But he's obviously got the passion and the potential, and I hope he keeps working at it.

The C.S. background isn't so much useful for the actual programming as it is for the more low-level knowledge like measuring algorithmic complexity, memory management, threading and memory models, etc.

In hindsight, Wolfe shouldn't have used a managed wrapper around an unmanaged library for his first big project. I really should have said something, but the obvious problems with that choice didn't even occur to me until long after he'd ceased working on it. Wolfe was just getting acquainted with .NET development, so he was learning to develop in a garbage-collected environment with no concept of deterministic memory memory management at the beginner level, all the while using a third-party library that likely required more careful resource management (and some explicit deallocation). Talk about counter-intuitive! And then there were the interop issues on Vista/7 related to unmanaged resource management that someone at Wolfe's skill level could simply not be expected to understand or resolve. He was on course for some major headaches from the get-go. I wish I had examined his framework choice more critically. Maybe I could have kept him from pulling out some hair. Oh well, at least he had fun with it--at the end of the day, that's all that really matters :).

Yes, Supremacy is still under active development, though the development went off on a big exploratory tangent a while back that consumed a lot of time and resulted in some features that, while really cool, will probably never see the light of day. Oh well. We're back on track, focusing on critical features and hoping to have a major update out in the next couple months.

I'm also really looking forward to seeing what Xordan comes up with. Get your code out there so we can see what you're up to, dammit! :twisted:
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Post by Cdrwolfe »

Aye it was fun and I appreciate all the help.

It certainly had a castle built on a bed of sand feel, though I really enjoyed the problem solving in a masochistic way along with adding new features ultimately it only further added to the weight.

The annoying thing for me was it kind of felt like battling against a tide, more complex features took longer to research and learn and for concepts and errors i really had no experience in figuring out beside endless scouring of the internet.

If i could only give one piece of advice it would have been screw coding until you've spent 4-6 months planning every facet of the combat system from start to finish. Also bribe a better programmer :)

I've tried to do that for my recent work at Uni lol whether it pans out that way I shall see, I still have a good habit of implementing things I probably have no right to implement hehehehehe.

Kind Regards Mike F
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Post by mstrobel »

Cdrwolfe wrote:If i could only give one piece of advice it would have been screw coding until you've spent 4-6 months planning every facet of the combat system from start to finish.
The latest trends in software engineering are leaning away from this approach and moving towards agile. I prefer something in between. Coming up with a partial design spec beforehand gives you some perspective and helps you come up with a solid architecture, but there's little sense in writing a complete design, as much of it will get thrown out anyway. I have a few notebooks full of ideas for Supremacy, only small bits of which have actually made it into the game.
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Post by Cdrwolfe »

mstrobel wrote:I have a few notebooks full of ideas for Supremacy
Careful, I can think of a few people who will want you to implement them all :D

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Post by Xordan »

Just another quick heads up... I got sidetracked by a rather major feature I added to my 3d engine this month (which is now pretty much done), it's been taking up a lot of my time as it's pretty complex.

In addition I realised that our export tools are pretty poor (hard to make a game if you can't easily get your models into the engine...), so I'm writing some new ones.

I'm also going to refocus a little, I'll take a look at some of your existing projects and see how best to integrate 3d rendering into them, rather than going 100% solo :) I'll play around with my other ideas some other time.
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Post by Peter1981 »

Keep up the hard work Xordan :D
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Post by Silverbreaker »

yep - never surrender, never give up ;-)
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Post by anjel »

Keep up the good work, i´m really interested in seeing what you´ve done so far, and how it will end up. About the export/importing ships, YES it would be really nice to do it in an easy way and have more freedon in moddeling a complex ship... don´t know... as in legacy ??? 8O :lol: just kidding
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Post by matress_of_evil »

It's nice to see this thread alive again, even if i'm a few days late. Keep in contact with us, Xordan, we're always interested in any progress you make or any ways that we can help you. Mike is definitely interested and always willing to help, although he's in the middle of moving house so he might not necessarily be the easiest person to get a reply from. But definitely keep in contact. It'll be interesting to see what you come up with. :)
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Post by Malvoisin »

BotE Alpha 6 is out (english version is included in installer, just choose - if not pre-chosen which it should be - english language right at the beginning when asked for setup language):

Download @ 142mb

Here are some screenshots from the (German) copy of the game:
Khaoron Empire - battle-details:

Khaoron Empire - buildmenu:

Khaoron Empire- diplomacy offer menu:

Khaoron Empire - galaxyview:

Khaoron Empire - shipdesignview:

Khaoron Empire - top-5 system overview:

Game Change Log

Code: Select all

V0.72 -> V0.8 (Alpha 6)
New Views and Events: 
- Complete new Khaoron skin
- Reworked some older skins
- New views for ship combat tactics, ship combat orders and ship combat information  implemented
- New event for ship combat implemented
- New event for the end game (Game Over) implemented 
- Implemented new event for the destruction of a race 
- New event on extinction of a race 
- Implemented new event for victory 
- New Demographics view 
- New Top-5 systems view 
- New victory conditions view 

New Features:
- Khaoron as new playable race
- Space anomalies implemented 
- Presentation, Tooltips, AI attention implemented for space anomalies 
- Frequency of space anomalies via the options dialog and command set Ini 
- Various victory conditions added
- For victory in Optionsdialog and ini file set 
- While the game does not disable more changeable options in the Options dialog 
- Wireframe sphere around graphics on terraforming planets 
- Display of the exact morale change in the behind the Morale Event Impieriumsnachrichtenübersicht 
- Implemented event for morale empire extinction of system attack 
- Un-buildable orders are shown with a darker background
- Select a resource symbol before construction contract for special buildings (building work without compulsion) 
- A new flagship icon
- New shipicon for stealth ships 
- Labelled vessels are highlighted with an oval glow 
- Observance of avoidance and retreat commands in the fight calculation
- New morale events (flagship destroyed, outpost destroyed, starbase destroyed)
- Switching through systems in trade view with arrow keys

- Renewed sequence of calculations during the new round (of ship movements from ship combat system against attack) 
- Extension of the statistical calculations to demographics and match points 
- Security reports can now be sorted via different parameters (in ascending or descending) 
- But can never gain experience 
- For negative credits may no longer be built warships 
- Building the x-can be built only once per empire or only from a certain race to be removed during system acquisition (eg, distributors) 
- If you are affiliated with a Minor Race that can build ships, their system will have a shipyard when they join you
- Troops with troops and descriptions come from StringTable.txt (language dependent) 
- Work assignment bars are now displayed slightly rounded off
- Destroyed Empire (human and AI controlled) are now properly removed 
- Event in first contact increased font size for breed description 
- Increases to maximum Tooltipwidth 300px
- Research at game start a little slower, afterwards a little faster 

- Combat AI implemented 
- In assessing the dangerousness of sectors go defensive strengths of vessels is an only half 
- The less Terraform options are available, the higher Außenpostenbauprioritäten 
- Maneuverability is now relatively strong in the evaluation of offensive and defensive strengths ship
- System-AI largely improved
- War is declared only when really militarily stronger 

- On ship dismantling ships were not in the fleet added to the Shiphistory 
- Ship orders are correctly reset on completion of terraforming, colonization and Substations for all vessels involved 
- First contact in event was not for lack of the graphic image displayed in the absence of graphics 
- Fixed buffer overflow in internal security points and negative bonuses in the calculation Intel 
- Fixed bug when undoing the racial acquaintance between two races (always made known) 
- Bug fix in the calculation of the fight beam attack 
- Fixed error in the copy constructor and assignment operator for ships 
- Are in stock now negative Credit not grant credit huge gifts by diplomacy offer 
- Are selected for terraforming planets no longer shown as a straight terra formed when the command changes 
- Pointer to display a tooltip does not change now
- Fixed a bug in the display of fleet names of minor race ships

Internal code: 
- Optimization of struggle calculation (Performance +) 
- Built-in function to the overall chance of winning calculation 
- New generic function for drawing a ship (view, view fleet, fight view) 
- New general function to clear vessels (and thereby also to be noted that Fleet) 
- General function to add new ships to Shiphistory list 
- New general function for calculating the required laps for a construction project 
- Internal Star Maps (range map) can now be created for individual race 
- Star maps are calculated at a central location once and not at various points during next round () 
- New virtual Close () function for event screens (what happens when you close a screen event) 
- Static Font object for sector labels no longer needed 
- Modified post-frequent increments of iterators in pre-incrememtents (Performance +) 
- Implemented in some parts missing const correctness 
- Technically revised fleet menu code 
- Mouse overs and redraw drastically in all views of the ships
- Pre_increments wherever possible and memset programmed more safely

- New backgroundmusic for Hayoun, Khaorons and Rotharians
- New Building "Omega Homeyard"
- Spelling mistake fixed
- Added alien-ships in shiplist (but ingame not used yet)
- Recolored small duranium- and energyicon

V0.71 -> V0.72
- Scroll bars are hidden by default in the galaxy view 
- New initiatives commands (scroll bars show, star and system density Minor) 
- Implemented scrolling with the left mouse button in galaxy view 
- Tech level in organic, energy and construction technology to give 2% bonus on each production 
- Systems of resources distribution in system overview marked (* before resource) 
- Implemented more tech level (plus possible future technologies) 
- Bribe resistance implemented 
- Tooltips implemented many other 
- Ships of unknown breeds appear anywhere, anytime with a question mark icon 
- Trade routes always generate a minimal credit (previously also possible NULL) 
- Minor performance optimizations 
- Fixed some bugs
Last edited by Malvoisin on Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Xordan »

Nice screenshots :) I'm going to try it out now.

Does BotE have an IRC channel?
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