Boring! Enough with the overpowered outposts already!

[drokmed]

OMG this is ridiculous!

Over the years, I keep trying mods on these forums, and they ALL have the same exact strategy...

The strategy for ALL mods on this forums are:

1. At start of game, build no more than 2 scouts, and send them out to explore the map.

2. Build transports, and have them build uber indestructible outposts on planets you'd like to colonize.

3. Build colony ships to colony planets that have an indestructible outpost.

4. Crank up the research, the sooner the better. Crank up some intel too if you choose a non-intel race.

5. Military? What's that for? Don't waste time building 100 ships, when one outpost is more powerful.

6. After 300 or more turns, start to think about building a military fleet.

7. Build hundreds and hundreds of ships, if you want to take on an enemy outpost.

8. Boring... what was the point of this game again?

I've been saying this for years. I keep going back to the original game, because it is the only one that seems to be fair and balanced. All these great mods with great ideas are useless if they all have the same strategy: build an indestructible outpost, then colonize. Don't worry about anything else, you have hundreds of turns for that.

Here is an idea for a mod: NO OUTPOSTS!

Seriously, I'd like to see a mod that has no outposts, or make them wimpy, say like a level one scout. An outpost is tiny compared to a planet, and should be easily bypassed, if the planet is approached from the other side.

Just my two cents.

Flame on, defenders of the boring...

[Tethys]

Actually I would be the first to agree with you. Why?

Outposts are much, much weaker than, say, a full fledged Starbase. However, this is in terms of firepower, NOT defensive power. The idea behind a (Federation) Outpost would be first and foremost, ample defensive strength, to allow for reinforcements to arrive (this might not be the same case with other empires, keep in mind). Since this is (currently) impossible in BotF, one must 'cheat' a bit and give an outpost at least SOME kind of adequate offensive strength, given the lack of reinforcement capability.

Consider giving my creation Galaxies Mod a try. Its nowhere near finished (needs a few more models, balancing of ship stats, etc), but I THINK the latest version has SOME underpowered Outposts, like the Feds and the Roms, but most of the others are 32-ish phasers, 15 ish torpedoes, etc.

Galaxies Mod incorporates very cheap ship building, so quickly building a sizable fleet is not hard at all. Outposts, on the other hand, take AGES to build with a single TT (15+ turns in some cases). This takes away some of the 'build outpost now, colonize later' mentality that most mods heavily lean on. However with a fleet of, say, 9 TT's, one could easily build an outpost in around 4-5 turns. They are to be used mainly as an early warning system for enemy fleets, and expansion of ship ranges first and foremost.

Starbases on the other hand, take FOREVER to construct without several fleets of TTs (or at least they will when I get done with the mod ), and their offensive strength is capable of defending against several fleets of warships. This is the idea behind starbases, to provide a place for starships to gather, and to protect important frontier worlds that are key to your empire, like dilithium systems, asteroid systems (yes I said asteroids... with massive scan ranges, beyond Starbase capabilities), high population industrial systems, and minor race systems.

Give it a try. I dont think you will be too disappointed

On a side note, my mod you dont get scouts until around tech 2 in all fields food for thought.

[KrazeeXXL]

Hm just speak for yourself drokmed. I don't build any outposts at all.

But you're right. An outpost's task isn't to defend systems. it's just there for surveillance and increasing range. I totally agree in this point that it shouldn't be anything more. As this is where it got it's name for.... With the much too overpowered stats of OP's in some mods you become inveigled to build more and more of them. Bad balance...

You should be able to crack an OP1 with 2 cruisers or a warship.

Vanilla did it right. Starbases are another story.

But mods are mods and they show the creator's liking in these things.

So if you don't like the stats I'd say just change 'em.

[Martok]

Just play the Balance of Power mod. It doesn't have any outposts at all, only starbases.

And while starbases in BOP are fairly strong earlier on, they're not nearly so ridiculously powerful in the later game like in vanilla BOTF. In addition, starbases in BOP are pretty expensive in terms of maintenance, and are therefore really only worth building at your more important star systems (homeworld, major shipbuilding colonies, valuable minors, etc.).

[drokmed]

I should have been more clear... when I said outposts are overpowered, I also include starbases in that category. Overpowered outposts and starbases ruin the game IMHO. Unless the starbase is actually larger than the planet it's guarding, it shouldn't be able to defend the planet.

After further reflecting, I'm thinking either remove all weapons from outposts and starbases, or make them so they cannot be created over a planet. That way, they cannot be used to defend the planet, which frankly, is their primary role right now, which in itself is ridiculous.

Since a planet can easily be approached from the other side, it should be possible to avoid the starbase weapons. If not, either get rid of the weapons, or don't build starbases in systems that have planets.

I have tried all the mods, and they all have overpowered outposts and starbases. I always start at tech level 1. I can literally go for hundreds of turns before building one defensive ship. It's pathetic. Hundreds of turns clicking on building up production, research and intel, with no combat whatsoever. I'm back to vanilla botf, with maybe a splash of a few simple mods.

[Dr_Breen]

@drokmed: you'r strategy works fine against the AI only. A Human player would only have to build a single fleet big enough to destroy one of your outposts and then blow them up one by one. Once done he can raid your empire as long as he wants and thanks to your outposts he was forced to destroy his ships crews are even skilled enough to get a huge amount of money out of your empire.
result:
--> you will die

by the way: DS9 shows you quite good how strong a starbase can be. and the newer mods all try to be as cannon as possible

[Tethys]

Lol Breen. Nicely put

[drokmed]

Hi, and thanks for the post.

@drokmed: you'r strategy works fine against the AI only.

I'm not so sure about AI only, but then again, I haven't played against another player in at least 10 years.

A Human player would only have to build a single fleet big enough to destroy one of your outposts and then blow them up one by one.

Correct. Thank you, my point exactly. That argument re-affirms my complaint.

When people are dependent on excessively overpowered outposts/starbases for DEFENSE, they can easily neglect building a fleet, and put it off until when they are ready to run an invasion. If there were no outposts/starbases, or they had little/no weapons, then players would have to base their defense on ships only, keep them moving or centrally located within the controlled space, and utilize scouts/scanners for early enough warning to move the fleet for defense. That type of game would be much more enjoyable, AI or human, IMHO. Certainly more action. As it is now, with overpowered starbases, there is NO action, until you amass a huge fleet, which comes later in the game. Not all of us start the game at advanced level. I almost always start at level one, sometimes two.

Once done he can raid your empire as long as he wants and thanks to your outposts he was forced to destroy his ships crews are even skilled enough to get a huge amount of money out of your empire.
result:
--> you will die

Absolutely, another short-coming of becoming dependent on overpowered starbases. Again, re-affirms my point.

by the way: DS9 shows you quite good how strong a starbase can be. and the newer mods all try to be as cannon as possible

DS9 is not in orbit around a planet, it's out in space, all by itself. If it was in orbit of a planet, it's weapons would only be able to defend one side of the planet. Currently, the way botf plays, if you build a starbase in a system that has planets, it defends all of the planets, which isn't really fair.

Thanks for the responses everyone, I appreciate it.

Daryl

[thunderchero]

When people are dependent on excessively overpowered outposts/starbases for DEFENSE, they can easily neglect building a fleet

Than don't play that way....

play smart and enjoy playing with bases and fleets

also you are confused between planets and systems. In BOTF you attack systems not a planet. (systems have many planets and or stations)

thunderchero

[beepo]

I find a mod I enjoy then use UE to edit what I would like different. In this manner I've enjoyed all of the mods. However I would have to say try BOP. If you don't like something use UE.

[anjel]

i suppost you won´t like to have a k7 station in your botf.... .... (just making some advertisement for the new station)
But it´s true, with UE the problem is solved, just take some time to edit the sations stat

[Mumby]

Just like to give a shout out to the Uncivil War Mod... If your not a big fan of powerful outposts or starbases; this is the mod for you....

[mont]

I agree with the post originator, outpost and starbases should not be overpowered, backbone of defence should be the starfleet. These bases would not in reality be able to defend a planet or a system, but have been added for game mechanics.They are support facilities, fueling stations, and
observation posts.As mentioned, if your going to have a all powerful starbase
you should be paying a corresponding price.Lucky we have UE yes, but then your playing a game no one else is playing to compare.

[ruthlessferengi]

on multiplayer.... for UDM3, outposts and starbases are not used as floor mopping weak structures that can be blown away at will whenever... they Do add to the game particularly at t3 and t4 level as they can hold back invasion. it takes a decent fleet to take them down but that's part of the game. there were several games where I played with gentle outposts and starbases made a huge difference in the outcome of the game... the actual problem you have is that you are playing vs AI... which is dumb... enough said. play smart, play humans.

[RomSurprise]

the actual problem you have is that you are playing vs AI... which is dumb... enough said. play smart, play humans.

That wasn't the poster's problem, that's your problem. You can't answer the poster's question, so you call the poster dumb?