Having discovered the Federation influence in the design of the TOS Romulan Bird OF Prey ….see my article at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2367
I have decided to do a an on screen Romulan ship development timeline, with my own thoughts on how all this can be made to support the Star Trek Prime Timeline, as depicted in the TV episodes and movies (NOT the JJ Abrams movies!).
See Ex Astris Scientia
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... _ships.htm
for a description of the ships being mentioned below.
So sit back and enjoy!!
2152 – Enterprise - ‘The Minefield’
This episode introduces the early Romulan Bird of Prey and the Romulan cloaked mine. On the face of it, this flies totally against the later TOS impression that the Romulans didn’t have a cloak at this time, and attracted a lot of criticism from fans worldwide.
This early Romulan ship bears a resemblance to the later TOS model in general shape, but is in the standard green colouring of later ships and has warp nacelles, meaning the Romulans at this time had warp drive. The possession of warp drive may initially contradict the later TOS episode ‘Balance Of Terror’, but see my explanation on this episode below, for a solution.
The use of a cloak requires more creative explanations. I believe a solution does lie in the mines. Their shape is very like that of a Suliban short cell ship
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... _ships.htm
leading me to suspect that these mine cloaks, and indeed the ship cloaks of these early Birds Of Prey, are in fact Suliban in origin and under Suliban control. We only see these two specific Romulan ships use the cloak. We also know that the Suliban are getting instructions and technology (genetic manipulation and otherwise) from a mysterious figure from the future (whose outline looks suspiciously Romulan). All of which has to do with this temporal ‘Cold War’ going on in the background. Is all this to do with a future time conflict between the future Federation and Romulans?
The Suliban are the only major race in the Enterprise era to use the cloak (or developed stealth) to those who don’t believe it is a full cloaking system. Do the Romulans adopt or develop a full cloak from the Sulibans? Are the Sulibans necessary for this to happen in Romulan history?
But how then to explain the cloak’s absence in the later Romulan War?
Clearly, there are restraints in the transfer of advanced technology during this Cold War. Daniels can’t give major technology to Archer. Perhaps the same is true of the Romulan side.
For whatever reason not yet explained or depicted, the Suliban later withdraw their technical help from the Romulans. This includes cloaking ship technology. The Romulans are left with the cloaks on the small mines seen in ‘Minefield’.
It would take them a century to finally develop a model, from these small examples, capable of hiding a starship.
This is why the Federation is surprised at the Romulan cloak in ‘Balance Of Terror’. They know the Romulans briefly had and then lost the technology in the 22nd century. Now they seem to have a working model.
SPOCK: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous.
They may have solved that problem
SPOCK: Obviously, their weaponry is superior to ours, and they have a practical invisibility screen
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/9.htm
2154 – Enterprise ‘Babel One’, ‘United’ and ‘The Aenar’
http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/88.htm
http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/89.htm
http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/90.htm
We are introduced to the Romulan drone ship. This small ship only appears in these episodes, and is a match for much larger enemy warships. If the Romulans had fleets of these vessels during the Romulan War, they would have easily won. Obviously they didn’t. Why?
Senator Vrax, his Reman bodyguard with their futuristic weapons, Valdore and his team, are all clearly 24th century Romulans, right down to their uniforms and brow ridges.
VRAX: This mission was supposed to cause dissension in the region. It's had the opposite effect.
VALDORE: Senator, you have a right
VRAX: The Andorians and Tellarites have formed an alliance. They're working together for the first time in history.
VALDORE: It won't last.
VRAX: The group of senators doesn't share your optimism. They're presenting a motion to cancel this mission.
http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/90.htm
The holographic systems and possibly weapons on these ships are all products of future technology, perhaps all that can be given due to technical restraints.
So again, all this seems part of this temporal time war going on. That this system is not followed up by the Romulans is due to the critical part played by the Aenar. Without them, this system doesn’t work. Hence these ships absence in the Romulan War.
2154 – ‘Enterprise ends.
2160 – Earth/Romulan War ends.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/database/history2.htm
Unclear as to the duration of the conflict.
For the moment, we know precious little on this war, since it has not yet been depicted on screen. We therefore have to guess at the types of ships involved.
Coming so soon after the ‘Enterprise’ series finishes, we can assume that, on the Earth side, the main ship types will be the NX class, Intrepid class and an as yet unnamed type.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... _ships.htm
On the Romulan side, would be the early Birds of Prey (minus the cloak), and any as yet unseen types.
Stiles in TOS ‘Balance Of Terror’ mentions a Bird of Prey design,
KIRK: After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mister Stiles? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves.
STILES: You'll know, sir. They're painted like a giant bird-of-prey.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/9.htm
Since this design isn’t painted on the early Birds of Prey we see in ‘Minefield’, I’m assuming at least one other design is being referred to.
So far so good.
It’s the weaponry of the Earth ships that causes all the problems, specifically the presence of the ‘photonic’ torpedoes.
Spock, in ‘Balance Of terror’ clearly states that:
SPOCK [OC]: As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought,
…. By our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels …Which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side, would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time. Captain.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/9.htm
Clearly, photonic torpedoes were not employed by Earth. So how do we get around this?
Let’s look at the origin of these torpedoes for a moment.
In Enterprise ‘Sleeping Dogs’, 2151, they encounter photon torpedoes in a Klingon database.
HOSHI: Containment. I'm certain. (moves to next screen) Pu'DaH dak cha. Something they call photon torpedoes.
REED: Photon torpedoes? I've never heard of anything like that. What else?
HOSHI: Well, this all looks like weapons systems. Torpedoes, tactical sensors, disruptor arrays.
http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/15.htm
By 2153, during Enterprise ‘The Expanse’, photonic torpedoes are made part of the Earth arsenal.
REED: Photonic torpedoes. Their range is over fifty times greater than our conventional torpedoes, and they have a variable yield. They can knock the comm. array off a shuttlepod without scratching the hull or they can put a three kilometre crater into an asteroid.
TUCKER: How long is it going to take to reconfigure the tubes?
REED: We've got three teams working on it. They promise me it'll be done before we leave Spacedock, but I've got to start integrating them into the power grid.
TUCKER: Let's go.
http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/52.htm
It’s clear that the Earth used their purloined Klingon data to reverse engineer the photon torpedo data. But it isn’t identical to the Klingon model. Klingon photons in Enterprise are white in colour, and very powerful. These photonic torps are orange (like the later Federation photons). So we can assume that there was only general technical data stolen in Enterprise’s download. Enough to make a weapon, but no specifically vital technical data available (which would have resided in protected areas of the Klingon mainframe). This means that this photonic version of the Klingon model is far from perfect. Perhaps even unstable after a certain time. This scenario provides us with an explanation as to why they weren’t used in the Romulan War.
A number of possible scenarios can be put forward.
1) The torpedoes, after a certain time, become unstable and explode, destroying the ship they are in. This forces the Earth to revert back to atomic spatial torpedoes till the technical problems are solved.
2) The torpedoes are reasonably stable but the Vulcans sabotage them to stop Earth acquiring a weapon they can use to challenge the Vulcans
3) The Romulans, masquerading as Vulcans sabotage them to deny the Earth a powerful weapon in the upcoming Romulan conflict
Whichever scenario you choose, the end result is a return to atomic spatial torpedoes as the main missile weapon for Earth ships in the Romulan War. This fulfils Spock’s statement of the conflict being fought with ‘primitive atomic weapons’.
That the Romulans don’t have photonic torpedoes either can be explained by the unstable nature of the Earth version (why steal it if it doesn’t work?) and/or the difficulty of getting the necessary information from the Klingons. So they too fall back on atomic missiles, one of which is seen in ‘Balance Of Terror’.
And there’s absolutelty no way the Klingons are going to help Earth perfect technology they’ve stolen.
2265 - TOS “Balance Of Terror’
About a century after the end of the Romulan War, the Romulans reappear and attack outposts along the neutral zone. The new ship they are using has the same general shape as the earlier Birds Of Prey, but is very Federation looking in its nacelle design and general hull colouring.
Until recently, this similarity to Federation technology was puzzling. However, with the discovery that deleted scenes from ‘Balance Of Terror’ disclosed that the Romulans had used stolen Federation technology in this ship design,
see my article at
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2367
this similarity now makes sense.
I also speculated as to the reasons for this one off ship building anomaly, namely that making it look like a Federation vessel made it less vulnerable tactically in the critical cloaking phase, and that a fleet of these lookalikes would have had a devastating effect behind the lines in a Federation Romulan conflict.
More efficient Federation engine design may have, ironically, made the new cloak and plasma weaponry finally viable.
Which brings us to the question of whether the Romulans had warp drive in this episode.
Scott’s statement in TOS ‘Balance Of Terror’,
SCOTT: No question. Their power is simple impulse
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/9.htm
has given rise to much discussion and debate over the years.
It’s clear from the Enterprise episode ‘Minefield’, that at least in 2152, Romulan ships had warp engines. So how to explain Scott’s statement?
Looking at the episode again leads me to suspect that all the warp drive power was needed to work the cloak and weapons, leaving only the impulse engines to propel the ship. Certainly, they could have taken these systems offline to use their warp engines, but would then have been defenceless against attack. I'm assuming the reason they didn't run away on warp from the Enterprise was because even at warp, they were slower than a Constitution class ship. So, while they did have warp drives, they could only use their impulse engines in the tactical situation they found themselves in.
So, summing it all up, Spock’s statement that the Romulan War was fought with ‘primitive atomic weapons’ can now be explained.
One final note on this episode concerns the seeming ease with which the Enterprise was able to track the Romulan ship, even when cloaked.
KIRK: Position of the intruder, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Disappeared. Interesting how they became visible for just a moment.
KIRK: When they opened fire. Perhaps necessary when they use their weapon. SPOCK: I have a blip on the motion sensor. Could be the intruder.
SPOCK: Blip has changed its heading. And in a very leisurely manoeuvre. They may not be aware of us.
KIRK: Their invisibility screen may work both ways. With that kind of power consumption, they may not be able to see us.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/9.htm
Is this a legacy of the NX Enterprises’s ability to detect Suliban cloaks?
ARCHER: Lower them into position, then modify the viewscreen. Activate the beacon.
T'POL: They were designed to penetrate Suliban cloaking devices. I'll try shifting the phase variance.
http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/29.htm - Ent ‘Minefield’.
2267 – TOS ‘The Enterprise Incident’
The Romulans are now seen using D7 battlecruisers.
SCOTT: That's a Klingon ship! But it couldn't be, not in this area.
SPOCK: Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design.
SPOCK: A second ship has appeared. (another one decloaks) Correction, there are now three. We are surrounded
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/59.htm
The use of Klingon ships by the Romulans has led to a mountain of speculation regarding a Klingon Romulan alliance, or at the very least a technical exchange. I’m not going to get into that now, but will just say that is one possibility.
Given the tactical constraints revealed by the early Bird of Prey design (in TOS ‘Balance of Terror’) in spite of the addition of the new improved Federation inspired engines, made it only natural for the Romulans to work on rectifying these shortcomings as quickly as possible. One avenue was the use of bigger ships, with more powerful engines (and hence more power for the weapons and cloak). The D7 battlecruiser fulfilled this requirement.
Another solution was to improve the cloak to makeit more efficient, less power hungry, and capable of nullifying the current Federation tracking methods.
This also seems to have been accomplished at this time.
KIRK: The design of the ship is the same. Mister Spock, you said you had a theory on why your sensors didn't pick up the new ships until they were upon us.
SPOCK: I believe the Romulans have developed a cloaking device which renders our tracking sensors useless.
KIRK: If so, Romulans could attack in Federation territory before we knew they were there, before a vessel or planet could get even begin to get their defences up.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/59.htm
We don’t know how many Klingon ships were given to the Romulans, or whether the Romulans have started producing them on their own. What we can say is that the Romulans were gearing up for another attack on the Federation, which was postponed by the theft of the cloak in this episode, since not even the Romulans could track it.
COMMANDER: You realise that very soon we will learn to penetrate the cloaking device you stole.
SPOCK: Obviously. Military secrets are the most fleeting of all. I hope that you and I exchanged something more permanent
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/59.htm
The technical race goes on.
2267 – TOS ‘The Trouble With Tribbles’ and DS9 ‘Trials and Tribble-ations’
I include these episodes in this Romulan timeline for the following reason. The Klingon ship depicted in the DS9 episode has a unique hull colour.
DAX: Kira, can you identify the Klingon vessel?
KIRA: The IKS Gr'oth
DAX: That's Koloth's ship
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/503.htm
Unlike the later white D7’s depicted in TOS ‘The Enterprise Incident’ and TOS ‘Elaan of Troyius’, this one is green. And not just green, but Romulan green.
Since the tribble incident happens before the ‘Enterprise Incident’, we can only say with certainty that the Klingons at this time are operating two D7 models, a standard white model, and a more developed green variety possibly making full use of Romulan technology. Are the Romulans also using this model? We have no way of knowing at this time.
2323 – TNG ‘The Neutral Zone’
The various movies, until ‘Nemesis’, never depict a Romulan ship during the intervening years between Kirk and the Next Generation.
We have to wait nearly 160 years before we see a Romulan vessel. And what a vessel! The D’deridex class Warbird is surely one of the most iconic and memorable in science fiction history.
Dwarfing the Enterprise on screen, this ship is stated as being 1200m plus in length. This certainly seems to be the case in ‘The Neutral Zone’, but later depictions in TNG and DS9 show a smaller version of the model, at around 8-900m in length. Since these smaller warbirds are identified as B type Warbirds, we can identify the larger model as the A type.
I see the A type as operating as flagships for fleets of the smaller B types. Both versions would have the benefit of improved cloaking systems, which is what is stated in ‘The Neutral Zone’.
PICARD: Damn. Mister Data, are your sensors picking up anything? You should be detecting a disturbance.
DATA: Negative, sir.
LAFORGE: We wanted to know if they have improved the cloaking device. Guess we have our answer.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/126.htm
The Romulans have finally achieved tactical superiority over Federation sensors, but are again constrained from launching an attack, this time for political reasons. The Klingon/Federation alliance is just too strong to defeat.
2380 – Star Trek ‘Nemesis’
The latest vessel in the Romulan navy, the Valdore Class Warbird, is shown in this movie. I’ve already written about this type on this forum, so I’ll just say that Romulan cloaking technology is still ahead of the latest Federation sensors, and the Romulans have a ship that can match the best the Federation has to offer.
On Screen Romulan Ship Development
Moderator: thunderchero
Re: On Screen Romulan Ship Development
An interesting and detailed analysis, as usual :-). However, the assumptions your make about TOS and earlier technology seem not logical. Just to start with: The warp drive is a necessary requirement for interstellar travel, colonization and imperialism. So, the idea, that the Romulans didn't have warp drive during the ENT era is weird at least. They couldn't have fought an interstellar war with earth, if they hadn't had at least similar fast ships.
Also Spock states, that no visual communication was possible. That is unlikely as well. Yes, the Romulans didn't want to show their faces, but the NX had visual communication, and actually I see no reason, why that shouldn't be possible.
I would say, what Spock says about atomic weapons, radio only and no warp drive is just an artifact of the limited technological point of view in the 1960's. I also prefer to stay cannon, but as a matter of fact, much of the cannon things are just rubbish. I like that TOS episode, one of my favorites, but long before ENT was produced, I found those details not fitting.
But I like the idea with the Suliban, though highly speculative. It might me easier to assume, that Romulan ship cloaking in that ENT episode was a writers mistake. Anyway, we have to make-up our own cannon picture, as the writers weren't very consistent, as we all know.
Cheers
Also Spock states, that no visual communication was possible. That is unlikely as well. Yes, the Romulans didn't want to show their faces, but the NX had visual communication, and actually I see no reason, why that shouldn't be possible.
I would say, what Spock says about atomic weapons, radio only and no warp drive is just an artifact of the limited technological point of view in the 1960's. I also prefer to stay cannon, but as a matter of fact, much of the cannon things are just rubbish. I like that TOS episode, one of my favorites, but long before ENT was produced, I found those details not fitting.
But I like the idea with the Suliban, though highly speculative. It might me easier to assume, that Romulan ship cloaking in that ENT episode was a writers mistake. Anyway, we have to make-up our own cannon picture, as the writers weren't very consistent, as we all know.
Cheers
Re: On Screen Romulan Ship Development
Given the distance between the outposts shown on the viewscreen in "Balance of Terror" and the speed at which the Enterprise was traveling on that screen even though she was supposedly as maximum speed gives us a hint of the vast distances involved. It's impossible to assume a ship without warpdrive would be able to even cover the distance between those asteroids, not to mention the distance required to get to those asteroids in the first place, or get back to its own space.
Since they would have been required to be cloaked to approach the asteroids without being detected this means the ship must have been warp-capable while cloaked.
In addition if we assume the Enterprise was travelling during episode at Warp 8 (512c) or even Warp 9 (729c) and we go by the statement from the TNGTM than anyhting beyond .25c is impractical due to time dialation (meaning in this case the Romulans would have had trouble reacting to the enemy) the Enterprise was either about 2000 times or almost 3000 times as fast as the Romulan ship.
That's, to be blunt, rather insane.
I can accept that the Romulan ship was slow by 23rd century standards, but that would already be the case if it was limited to, say Warp 5 (125c) chile cloaked.
In either case it's also a bit strange that there was no mentioning of its speed changing when it engaged its cloaking device after the Romulan commander ordered his ship to be cloaked as he assumed the "reflection" following them was an enemy ship.
Since they would have been required to be cloaked to approach the asteroids without being detected this means the ship must have been warp-capable while cloaked.
In addition if we assume the Enterprise was travelling during episode at Warp 8 (512c) or even Warp 9 (729c) and we go by the statement from the TNGTM than anyhting beyond .25c is impractical due to time dialation (meaning in this case the Romulans would have had trouble reacting to the enemy) the Enterprise was either about 2000 times or almost 3000 times as fast as the Romulan ship.
That's, to be blunt, rather insane.
I can accept that the Romulan ship was slow by 23rd century standards, but that would already be the case if it was limited to, say Warp 5 (125c) chile cloaked.
In either case it's also a bit strange that there was no mentioning of its speed changing when it engaged its cloaking device after the Romulan commander ordered his ship to be cloaked as he assumed the "reflection" following them was an enemy ship.
Re: On Screen Romulan Ship Development
Hi nfg84 and MrD,
As I stated in the article,
"It’s clear from the Enterprise episode ‘Minefield’, that at least in 2152, Romulan ships had warp engines. So how to explain Scott’s statement?"
So I am puzzled as to why both of you are saying the Romulan ship has no warp drive when I am saying the Romulans did have warp since the 22nd century.
In the article, I am saying that this TOS ship had more efficient warp drives due to stolen Federation technology. Even so, the power requirements of their new cloak and weapons meant that all the warp drive power was needed to operate them, leaving only impulse for propulsion while they were being used. So yes, warp power is needed to quickly bridge the distance to the Neutral Zone. I have no problem in seeing the Romulan ship warp to the Neutral Zone, then cloak and use impulse to attack the outposts.
If one side is blocking visual communication, then naturally it won't work for the other side. The Romulan ship was also under strict orders not to send out any mesages. Only Decius's breaking of these rules allowed the Enterprise to hack into the mesage and get a look at the Romulans.
Spock never says the Romulans didn't have warp drive, only that the ships they were using at the time were primitive (by 23rd century standards they were) and that atomic weapons were being used.
The scale of the viewscreen view seems ambiguous so I can't say what scale it is trying to show.
Yes, they do have to cloak to approach the asteroids (to avoid detection before they attack), but as I have said, there is nothing stopping them warping to just before sensor range of the outposts and then cloaking and using impulse to approach.
We don't know the exact speed of this Romulan ship, but, I think it's a safe bet it is slower than a Constitution. Bear also in mind that the Romulan commander clearly states in the episode that his fuel (ie for impulse) is nearly exhausted. So his tactical options are very limited at best.
If he runs at warp, he looses his cloak and torp, and the faster Federation ship can catch up and fire on him. If he cloaks, he might not have enough fuel to get back to Romulan territory.
As I stated in the article,
"It’s clear from the Enterprise episode ‘Minefield’, that at least in 2152, Romulan ships had warp engines. So how to explain Scott’s statement?"
So I am puzzled as to why both of you are saying the Romulan ship has no warp drive when I am saying the Romulans did have warp since the 22nd century.
In the article, I am saying that this TOS ship had more efficient warp drives due to stolen Federation technology. Even so, the power requirements of their new cloak and weapons meant that all the warp drive power was needed to operate them, leaving only impulse for propulsion while they were being used. So yes, warp power is needed to quickly bridge the distance to the Neutral Zone. I have no problem in seeing the Romulan ship warp to the Neutral Zone, then cloak and use impulse to attack the outposts.
If one side is blocking visual communication, then naturally it won't work for the other side. The Romulan ship was also under strict orders not to send out any mesages. Only Decius's breaking of these rules allowed the Enterprise to hack into the mesage and get a look at the Romulans.
Spock never says the Romulans didn't have warp drive, only that the ships they were using at the time were primitive (by 23rd century standards they were) and that atomic weapons were being used.
The scale of the viewscreen view seems ambiguous so I can't say what scale it is trying to show.
Yes, they do have to cloak to approach the asteroids (to avoid detection before they attack), but as I have said, there is nothing stopping them warping to just before sensor range of the outposts and then cloaking and using impulse to approach.
We don't know the exact speed of this Romulan ship, but, I think it's a safe bet it is slower than a Constitution. Bear also in mind that the Romulan commander clearly states in the episode that his fuel (ie for impulse) is nearly exhausted. So his tactical options are very limited at best.
If he runs at warp, he looses his cloak and torp, and the faster Federation ship can catch up and fire on him. If he cloaks, he might not have enough fuel to get back to Romulan territory.
Re: On Screen Romulan Ship Development
I'm sorry I don't have much time right now but please reread my post.
I never said it didn't have warp.
Your theorised when it was cloaked it was forced to use impulse for propulsion.
My response was that the Romulan vessel would have been forced to cross the neutral zone under cloak to not be detected and thus under impulse.
My sentence "Since they would have been required to be cloaked to approach the asteroids without being detected this means the ship must have been warp-capable while cloaked." clearly shows that.
I never said it didn't have warp.
Your theorised when it was cloaked it was forced to use impulse for propulsion.
My response was that the Romulan vessel would have been forced to cross the neutral zone under cloak to not be detected and thus under impulse.
My sentence "Since they would have been required to be cloaked to approach the asteroids without being detected this means the ship must have been warp-capable while cloaked." clearly shows that.
Re: On Screen Romulan Ship Development
Hi MrD,
My apologies if I misread your post. Yes, it makes sense that they would need to approach while cloaked. My response was that they could come in from the Romulan side with warp speed to just beyond sensor range, transfer warp power to weapons and cloak, then come in on impulse. Depending on how far an outposts sensors reach, an impulse propelled ship should have no difficulty travelling that distance. It comes down to how fast an impulse driven ship can go. Approaching at a speed of nearly warp 1 may be enough to get to an outpost, destroy it, then move on.
But perhaps you are right. This particular ship with its massive energy needs may have had problems with travelling the distances between its targets on impulse. But this was after all a test mission, designed to find out the limitations of this new ship and weapons systems under combat conditions. The later acquisitions of D7 battlecruisers and the development of an improved cloak finally solved the impulse speed limitation of using the cloak.
My apologies if I misread your post. Yes, it makes sense that they would need to approach while cloaked. My response was that they could come in from the Romulan side with warp speed to just beyond sensor range, transfer warp power to weapons and cloak, then come in on impulse. Depending on how far an outposts sensors reach, an impulse propelled ship should have no difficulty travelling that distance. It comes down to how fast an impulse driven ship can go. Approaching at a speed of nearly warp 1 may be enough to get to an outpost, destroy it, then move on.
But perhaps you are right. This particular ship with its massive energy needs may have had problems with travelling the distances between its targets on impulse. But this was after all a test mission, designed to find out the limitations of this new ship and weapons systems under combat conditions. The later acquisitions of D7 battlecruisers and the development of an improved cloak finally solved the impulse speed limitation of using the cloak.
Re: On Screen Romulan Ship Development
No problem.
I think I should have worded my post a bit better so this misunderstanding could have been avoided.
I've been thinking about this a bit more and I tried to put my thoughts into a picture (with a typo it seems)
it takes into account the speed the Enterprise was shown to have traveled at when this map was shown which seemed to have been somewhere around one grid element per minute or so (can someone confirm/refute, please?).
So if we assume this means one element in a minute at warp 8 (512c) how could the Romulan ship traverse the distance in one hour (60 times that amount) without FTL drive?
And there's something that bothers me about the idea the ship would have to be able to reach either FTL speed or use its cloak that I tried to illustrate in my first post but was probably not clear enough:
After the destruction of the outposts the Romulan ship started to head home and only cloaked after the Commander decided the "reflection" was an enemy ship.
However there was never any indication speed changed between times the ship was cloaked or uncloaked.
Speed seemed to be a constant, while fuel consumption was actually a problem.
"Activate our cloak."
"Commander, our fuel runs low!"
so it seems the power supply (my personal theory is it's a/several fusion reactor(s), just like I presume the Phoenix was not powered by antimatter given it Lilly took months just for some titanium) can provide more power than the engines can draw.
I think I should have worded my post a bit better so this misunderstanding could have been avoided.
I've been thinking about this a bit more and I tried to put my thoughts into a picture (with a typo it seems)
it takes into account the speed the Enterprise was shown to have traveled at when this map was shown which seemed to have been somewhere around one grid element per minute or so (can someone confirm/refute, please?).
So if we assume this means one element in a minute at warp 8 (512c) how could the Romulan ship traverse the distance in one hour (60 times that amount) without FTL drive?
And there's something that bothers me about the idea the ship would have to be able to reach either FTL speed or use its cloak that I tried to illustrate in my first post but was probably not clear enough:
After the destruction of the outposts the Romulan ship started to head home and only cloaked after the Commander decided the "reflection" was an enemy ship.
However there was never any indication speed changed between times the ship was cloaked or uncloaked.
Speed seemed to be a constant, while fuel consumption was actually a problem.
"Activate our cloak."
"Commander, our fuel runs low!"
so it seems the power supply (my personal theory is it's a/several fusion reactor(s), just like I presume the Phoenix was not powered by antimatter given it Lilly took months just for some titanium) can provide more power than the engines can draw.
Re: On Screen Romulan Ship Development
Hi again Mr D,
Yes, there could be a problem with the distances involved with only impulse power, if impulse is limited to sub warp speeds.
The initial impression one gets from reading material on the net on impulse drives, for example,
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Impulse_drive
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_drive
is that impulse is at best 80% of the speed of light. Yet the example of Cochrane's first flight in the Phoenix proves this wrong. Looking at the dialogue in the movie it seems that impulse technology is being used with the warp core.
Star Trek 'First Contact'
DATA: The structural integrity of the missile appears to be in tact. The fuselage is slightly damaged.
PICARD: We should have the original blueprints on the Enterprise computer. Commander La Forge will need to bring a team down here.
CRUSHER: Severe theta radiation poisoning.
DATA: Radiation is coming from the damaged throttle assembly.
PICARD: Isn't it amazing? This ship used to be a nuclear missile.
DATA: It is an historical irony that Doctor Cochrane would use an instrument of mass-destruction to inaugurate an era of peace
RIKER: Doctor, tomorrow morning when they detect the warp signature from your ship and realise that humans have discovered how to travel faster than light, they decide to alter their course and make first contact with Earth, right here.
LAFORGE: I've tried to reconstruct the intermix chamber from what I remember at school. Tell me if I got it right.
COCHRANE: School? You learned about this in school?
LAFORGE: Oh yeah. 'Basic Warp Design' is a required course at the Academy. The first chapter is called 'Zefram Cochrane'.
BARCLAY: Commander. This is what we're thinking of using to replace the damaged warp plasma conduit.
(Geordi uses his ocular implant to examine a spiral of copper tubing)
LAFORGE: Yeah. Yeah, that's good, but you need to reinforce this copper tubing with a nano-polymer
COCHRANE: ATR settings.
LAFORGE: Active.
COCHRANE: Main bus.
RIKER: Ready.
COCHRANE: Initiate pre-ignition sequence.
LAFORGE: Hey! We've got a red light on the second intake valve.
COCHRANE: Ignore it. We'll be fine. ...Prepare for first stage shutdown and separation on my mark. Three, two, one, mark.
RIKER: Okay, let's bring the warp core on-line.
COCHRANE: Oh, wow.
LAFORGE: Plasma injectors are on-line. Everything's looking good. I think we're ready.
RIKER: They should be out there right now. We better break the warp barrier in the next five minutes if we're going to get their attention.
LAFORGE: Main cells are charged and ready.
RIKER: Let's do it.
COCHRANE: Engage.
LAFORGE: Warp field is looking good. Structural integrity is holding.
RIKER: Speed, twenty thousand kilometres per second.
COCHRANE: Sweet Jesus!
RIKER: Thirty seconds to warp threshold. ...Approaching light-speed.
COCHRANE: We're at critical velocity.
http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie8.html
If Cochrane's missile with its limited fuel load can achieve at least warp 1 on impulse, could later impulse engines, say a century later, achieve more?
Can later impulse engines achieve multi warp speeds? (say warp 2 or 3, or more?) Is the main reason anti matter engines are used is because their fuel supplies last far longer? Dilithium used in anti matter reactors lasts for years (or until the crystal is damaged).
Nuclear fuel may get used far quicker at very high sustained warp (say days or weeks?). Is the reason later impulse engines are limited to sublight to conserve the nuclear fuel?
Could the Romulan impulse engines of the TOS era be fast enough to zip between these outposts as they destroy them one by one?
Yes, there could be a problem with the distances involved with only impulse power, if impulse is limited to sub warp speeds.
The initial impression one gets from reading material on the net on impulse drives, for example,
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Impulse_drive
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_drive
is that impulse is at best 80% of the speed of light. Yet the example of Cochrane's first flight in the Phoenix proves this wrong. Looking at the dialogue in the movie it seems that impulse technology is being used with the warp core.
Star Trek 'First Contact'
DATA: The structural integrity of the missile appears to be in tact. The fuselage is slightly damaged.
PICARD: We should have the original blueprints on the Enterprise computer. Commander La Forge will need to bring a team down here.
CRUSHER: Severe theta radiation poisoning.
DATA: Radiation is coming from the damaged throttle assembly.
PICARD: Isn't it amazing? This ship used to be a nuclear missile.
DATA: It is an historical irony that Doctor Cochrane would use an instrument of mass-destruction to inaugurate an era of peace
RIKER: Doctor, tomorrow morning when they detect the warp signature from your ship and realise that humans have discovered how to travel faster than light, they decide to alter their course and make first contact with Earth, right here.
LAFORGE: I've tried to reconstruct the intermix chamber from what I remember at school. Tell me if I got it right.
COCHRANE: School? You learned about this in school?
LAFORGE: Oh yeah. 'Basic Warp Design' is a required course at the Academy. The first chapter is called 'Zefram Cochrane'.
BARCLAY: Commander. This is what we're thinking of using to replace the damaged warp plasma conduit.
(Geordi uses his ocular implant to examine a spiral of copper tubing)
LAFORGE: Yeah. Yeah, that's good, but you need to reinforce this copper tubing with a nano-polymer
COCHRANE: ATR settings.
LAFORGE: Active.
COCHRANE: Main bus.
RIKER: Ready.
COCHRANE: Initiate pre-ignition sequence.
LAFORGE: Hey! We've got a red light on the second intake valve.
COCHRANE: Ignore it. We'll be fine. ...Prepare for first stage shutdown and separation on my mark. Three, two, one, mark.
RIKER: Okay, let's bring the warp core on-line.
COCHRANE: Oh, wow.
LAFORGE: Plasma injectors are on-line. Everything's looking good. I think we're ready.
RIKER: They should be out there right now. We better break the warp barrier in the next five minutes if we're going to get their attention.
LAFORGE: Main cells are charged and ready.
RIKER: Let's do it.
COCHRANE: Engage.
LAFORGE: Warp field is looking good. Structural integrity is holding.
RIKER: Speed, twenty thousand kilometres per second.
COCHRANE: Sweet Jesus!
RIKER: Thirty seconds to warp threshold. ...Approaching light-speed.
COCHRANE: We're at critical velocity.
http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie8.html
If Cochrane's missile with its limited fuel load can achieve at least warp 1 on impulse, could later impulse engines, say a century later, achieve more?
Can later impulse engines achieve multi warp speeds? (say warp 2 or 3, or more?) Is the main reason anti matter engines are used is because their fuel supplies last far longer? Dilithium used in anti matter reactors lasts for years (or until the crystal is damaged).
Nuclear fuel may get used far quicker at very high sustained warp (say days or weeks?). Is the reason later impulse engines are limited to sublight to conserve the nuclear fuel?
Could the Romulan impulse engines of the TOS era be fast enough to zip between these outposts as they destroy them one by one?