Hi all,
Today I thought I’d write a little on the sizes of the fleets seen in the various Star Trek series, noting how they jump considerably in DS9, and offering an explanation.
Even though ‘Enterprise’ takes place before the advent of the Federation, it still provides some idea of fleet sizes during this period.
In Enterprise ‘The Expanse’ (2153), Earth can send three ships (including an Intrepid and unknown type)
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... _ships.htm
to intercept a Klingon Bird Of Prey. Bearing in kind that this is two years since they launched their first NX, and that other NX’s as well as other types, are being built, it still seems to indicate that the size of the Earth fleet is woefully small. Earth at this time, with its slowed down technological development, thanks to the Vulcans, can have at most only a handful of colonies. Certainly not a large enough industrial basis for a huge stellar fleet.
Even the skirmishes between the Andorians and Vulcans seem to involve only small numbers of ships (perhaps up to a dozen at most). If we assume that both these powers contain at most a hundred or so ships total in their navies, then the fledgling Earthlings cannot have more than maybe a dozen.
Which then brings me to the scale of the upcoming Romulan War. Previous reconstructions of this conflict have hundreds of ships on both sides fighting it out over a number of years.
But could Earth have been able, at this time, to build or sustain that number of ships? Judging by ‘Enterprise’, definitely not. Within 7 years (2160 being the end of the Romulan War), Earth may have perhaps doubled its fleet, but 20 to 30 ships is a lot smaller than the numbers usually given for both combatants.
If the size of the Earth fleet is smaller than previously thought, and the war was a close run thing, that can only mean that the Romulans could only field a comparable number of ships. Which begs the question, why, after 2000 years away from their Vulcan homeland, were the Romulans in the same technological situation as Earth? You would think that after two millennia they would be far bigger and more advanced. Granted, their initial sublight ships may have taken a long time to reach Romulus, but that still leaves plenty of time for development. What was holding them back?
Perhaps the same thing that was stifling Earth, namely the Vulcans.
In Voyager ‘Death Wish’, Quinn triggered a war between Vulcans and Romulans lasting 100 years.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/incon ... omulan.htm
He was arrested in 2072, meaning the war must have taken place prior to that date. The conflict thus takes place before the Romulan Earth War.
If we take the date 2072 as the year the war ended, then it must have started in 1972. Are the Vulcans technologically repressing their wayward brethren, just as they later do to Earth? Does Quinn see this as an injustice and gives the Romulans the means to fight back? Is this why the Romulans are now furiously colonizing planets (as in Ent ‘Minefield’) to make up for lost time? Is this also why the Vulcans now really ruthlessly repress Earth development, to avoid having to fight another similar conflict?
Questions, questions.
My point is that the conflict was much smaller than once thought, perhaps a series of large skirmishes rather than full fleet battles.
A century later, we arrive at the time of Star Trek (the original series).
In the original series, we don’t get to see large fleets depicted on screen. In TOS ‘Errand of Mercy’, it’s said that a fleet of Federation ships and one of Klingons are squaring off to fight it out, but we get no information as to the size or makeup of either force.
TOS ‘The Ultimate Computer’ has probably the largest number of Federation ships on screen for this series.
UHURA: Sir, sensors are picking up four Federation starships. M-5 is altering course to intercept.
KIRK: The main attack force. The war games.
MCCOY: But M-5 doesn't know it's a game.
KIRK: Correction, Bones. Those four ships don't know it's M-5's game. And M-5 is going to destroy them
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/53.htm
We see four Constitution cruisers on the view screen. If four ships represent the main attack force, then the rest of the force can’t be that much more in total.
Introduced around 2240, Constitution class vessels numbered 12 in total by 2267.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships1.htm
Ex Astris Scientia lists a total of 18 known vessels.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships1.htm
These represent the premier space vessel for the Federation of this era. If we take this number, and add comparable figures for the Saladin destroyer, Hermes scout, Ptolemy tug and Federation Dreadnought,
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships3.htm
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/sftm.htm
we arrive at a fleet of perhaps a hundred or so ships. These designs appeared in The Star Trek Technical Manual of 1975. On whether they are canon or not, please read the article
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/sftm.htm
Jumping from a few dozen to a hundred or so ships in a hundred years doesn’t seem like a rapid great expansion in fleet size. We have no information on what happened after the formation of the Federation to the original series. Whether the Vulcans were continuing their efforts at stifling human technical growth remains unknown.
However, the situation is not so bad. The Federation ships are far larger and more capable than the earlier, smaller NX’s, and have finally seemed to have reached parity with their Klingon equivalents. We have no solid data on the size of the Federation at this time also. Perhaps one hundred ships were more than adequate for securing the Federation’s border at this time.
Which brings us to the Klingons. The Federation was more than ready to go to war over Organia in TOS ‘Errand Of Mercy’. Would they have done so if they didn’t have comparable military power?
KIRK: Well, we've been anticipating an attack. I'd say what we've just experienced very nearly qualifies.
SPOCK: Yes. It would seem to be an unfriendly act.
UHURA: Automatic all-points relay from Starfleet Command, Captain, code one.
KIRK: Well, there it is. War. We didn't want it, but we've got it.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/27.htm
KOR: Sentimentality, mercy. The emotions of peace. Your weakness, Captain Kirk. The Klingon Empire shall win. Think of it, as we sit here, in space above us the destiny of the galaxy will be decided for the next ten thousand years. Can I offer you a drink? We can toast the victory of the Klingon fleet.
SPOCK: You may be premature. There are many possibilities.
KOR: Today we conquer. If some day we are defeated, well, war has its fortunes good and bad.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/27.htm
Is Kor’s confidence justified by superior fleet strength? Certainly, the Klingons logically should have a larger fleet, bearing in mind the longer time they have been expanding in space. But the Klingons also have more frontiers to guard. A fleet of three to four hundred ships is only decisive against the Federation if solely concentrated on the Federation front. The Klingons are not known for diplomacy, so any new contact with races is likely to be violent. If other conflicts (like the Romulan front or other conflicts we don’t know about) siphon off Klingon warships, then perhaps a hundred or so ships might be all they can spare. Any small advantage in numbers may be offset by the Federation members own home fleets (we know that Vulcan still has ships of its own as late as the ‘Next Generation’ – TNG ‘Unification’).
We move on in time to the Next Generation. In TNG ‘Best of Both Worlds’, a large fleet is mobilised to fight a Borg Cube.
The Best of Both Worlds Part 2
Stardate: 44001.4 (2266)
HANSON [on monitor]: Your engagements have given us valuable time. We've mobilised a fleet of forty starships at Wolf three five nine, and that's just for starters. The Klingons are sending warships. Hell, we've even thought about opening communications with the Romulans.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/175.htm
Forty starships seems initially like a sizable force in such a small amount of time. But bear in mind the following. This episode takes place about a century after TOS ‘Errand of Mercy’(2267). You would expect a significant rise in fleet size, especially considering the greater size of the Federation at this time, as well as the greater level of technology. Federation borders should have at least sizable fleets patrolling them. Even if we assume that the current Klingon Federation treaty made large fleets unnecessary from a military/political point of view, you would still expect greater ship numbers simply to adequately patrol the greater area of the Federation.
Yet when a Borg cube heads towards Earth, only forty ships are available to intercept. This seems to indicate a very low ship density, at least within the inner areas of the Federation.
Given the later fleet depictions of hundreds of ships in DS9, one has to wonder, ‘where are the big fleets’? The impression one is getting seems to be that, at least in the early part of the Next Generation series, the Federation fleet might number in the few hundreds, perhaps approaching a thousand.
And it’s not just the Federation that appears to have lower ship numbers than expected. The Klingons in DS9 ‘Way Of The Warrior’ show a similar situation.
The Way of the Warrior
Stardate: 49011.4(2372)
KIRA: The Klingon ships keep cloaking and decloaking, so it's impossible to get an exact count, but so far we've been able to identify at least twenty different warships in the vicinity of the station
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/473.htm
The fleet that decloaks at the beginning of the episode looks like it may contain around a hundred ships. As to the total size of the invasion force, we have the following clues.
DAX: All together we're talking about well over a hundred ships, just in the first wave.
GARAK: Excuse me. I hope I'm not interrupting.
SISKO: I'd like to be measured for a new suit.
GARAK: Now?
SISKO: Right now.
GARAK: But Captain, I do have your measurements.
SISKO: Take them again. You were saying, Commander?
DAX: I was saying that between ground forces and warships, the Klingons have committed almost a third of their military to this invasion.
SISKO: How long before they reach their target?
WORF: According to our estimates, the task force should enter Cardassian space within the hour.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/473.htm
If we assume, say one hundred and fifty ships in this first wave, and further assume three waves of ships, that gives a grand total of 450. If this is almost a third of the current Klingon military, that gives a possible total Klingon fleet strength of between 1300 and 1400 ships.
In the Klingon attack on DS9 in this episode, the first furious exchange of fire produces the following casualties.
KIRA: Eight Klingon ships destroyed. Several heavily damaged.
SISKO: Contact Gowron. Maybe we can put an end to this before it gets any farther.
DAX: They're not responding
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/473.htm
This seems to indicate that the attacking force is not that large, perhaps a couple of dozen vessels. How else does one explain Starfleet’s response to the attack.
DAX: I'm reading a cluster of warp signatures approaching, bearing one eight seven mark zero two five. It's Starfleet, Benjamin. Six starships, led by the Venture. They'll be here in fifteen minutes.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/473.htm
Six ships??? If the Klingon force was far larger than the twenty or so ships indicated, would they even be worried by six starships?
The Cardassians too seem to have small fleets as well. In the following episode of TNG, a Cardassian strike force is hiding in a nebula.
Chain of Command, Part 2
Stardate: 46360.8 (2369)
WORF: Captain, the shuttlecraft is emerging from the nebula.
JELLICO: Enterprise to shuttle. Were you successful, Commander?
RIKER [OC]: Aye, sir. The mines are laid.
JELLICO: Very well. Red alert. Stand by to detonate the mines on my command.
WORF: Standing by.
JELLICO: Open a channel to the Reklar.
LEMEC [on viewscreen]: This is Cardassian territory, Captain. Your presence here is another deliberate provocation to
JELLICO: I'm not going to argue with you, Gul Lemec. Every one of your ships has a mine on its belly, my finger's on the button, and you're in a very bad position.
Given that the shuttle Riker was piloting was tiny, there could not have been that many mines on board. If we assume maybe fifty (and that’s being generous), then the Cardassian fleet could not have been more than this number.
The Dominion, too, at this early stage, had less than monstrous fleet numbers. Note the size of the Dominion fleet in the following episode (in comparison to later figures).
In Purgatory's Shadow
Stardate: Unknown
SISKO: A Dominion invasion of the Alpha Quadrant will affect Cardassia every bit as much as it's going to affect us. Besides, we need all the help we can get. The Dominion picked a perfect time to invade. The Cardassian fleet is in shambles, the Romulans are not much better off, and between the Klingon War and the recent Borg attack, Starfleet's spread pretty thin.
KIRA: Then we're going to have our hands full. There're at least fifty Dominion ships headed our way. For all we know, that could be just the first wave.
DAX: How soon can we expect reinforcements to get here?
SISKO: At maximum warp, two days.
KIRA: Not soon enough.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/512.htm
So, we have a Dominion force of at least 50, and probably more if there are more waves coming in (let’s assume at least three waves – so 150 ships at least)
This trend of low fleet numbers in DS9 extends to other non Federation fleets as well.
In DS9’s ‘The Die Is Cast’, a combined Cardassian/Romulan force, heads into the Gamma Quadrant to destroy the Founder’s homeworld.
TODDMAN [on monitor]: Only if he fails, Lieutenant. His plan looks like it has a fair chance of success. He's commanding a fleet of twenty ships manned by combat veterans. They know the location of the Founders' homeworld and they've modified their cloaks so the Jem'Hadar can't detect their approach
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/467.htm
A force of twenty ships is deemed sufficient to destroy a planet. Granted, this force is made up of intelligence organisation ships (Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order), but is still quite a small force. It does, however, follow the prevailing sizes of Star Trek ships currently seen. Going by onscreen views, the force itself seems to be made of 16 Keldon Class vessels and 4 Romulan Warbirds.
PILOT: Our sensor readings have been confirmed by three other warbirds. There has been no change in the number of life-signs on the surface.
PILOT: Cardassian cruiser Koranak has been destroyed. Romulan warbirds Makar and Belak have lost main power.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/467.htm
The ambushing Jem Hadar force is also within the current parameters of Star Trek fleet sizes
LOVOK: What type of ships?
PILOT: Jem'Hadar fighters.
TAIN: How many? I asked you a question.
PILOT: One hundred fifty.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/467.htm
So, up until now, most fleets seem to be less than one hundred ships in total, only rarely does a force of a few hundred make an actual appearance. This situation, however changes dramatically with the coming of the Dominion War.
By the time of DS9 ‘Favor The Bold’ fleet numbers go through the roof.
DS9 Favour The Bold
SISKO: By putting together a task force comprised of elements from the Second, Fifth and Ninth fleets, I believe that we can retake Deep Space Nine, the most important piece of real estate in the quadrant.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/529.htm
ROSS: Then we have a problem. According to this, the minefield's coming down in three days. The Ninth Fleet won't be here for at least four.
SISKO: Then I suggest we go without them.
ROSS: What about the Klingons?
SISKO: Looks like we go without them too. We've run out of time, Admiral.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/529.htm
O'BRIEN: I'm picking something up. It's a large Dominion fleet bearing zero zero four mark zero zero nine.
SISKO: How large?
O'BRIEN: Twelve hundred and fifty four ships.
BASHIR: They outnumber us two to one.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/529.htm
A force of over 600 Federation vessels is assembled for this mission, 600!! When previously Federation fleets comprised only handfuls of ships, we now have hundreds of vessels appearing as if out of nowhere. And this number only comprises two fleets, the Second and Fifth. If we assume these fleets are roughly at full strength, then each Federation fleet comprises at least 300 ships. How many fleets does the Federation have at this time? We don’t really know. The largest numbered fleet spoken of on screen is in DS9 ‘In The Pale Moonlight’
SISKO: There's plenty of blame to go around. The Tenth Fleet was supposed to be protecting Betazed and its outlying colonies, but it was caught out of position on a training exercise. What's worse, Betazed's own defence systems are obsolete and undermanned. The planet was theirs in less than ten hours.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/543.htm
Ten Federation fleets at 300 ships each gives a grand fleet total of 3000 ships (at least – more if there are more than ten fleets)
[On a side note, if these fleet sizes are valid, then the fleet assembled to meet the Borg cube in ST ‘First Contact’, must have numbered at least a couple of hundred vessels, since this incident occurs after the Dominion War when the Federation Fleet is still at wartime strength. Which means this later version of the Cube was a lot more capable than the one seen in TNG ‘Best of Both Worlds’. This class of Cube decimates hundreds of ships, breaks through and almost succeeds in its mission!]
We see a similar expansion in numbers for their Cardassian and Dominion opponents. In the same episode (Favor The Bold),
WEYOUN: Here? Oh. He knows we're taking down the minefield. Someone must've got a message out.
DUKAT: So it would seem.
WEYOUN: No matter. We'll crush them.
DUKAT: Yes. Yes, we will. But in order to do that, I'm going to have to pull a significant number of our ships off the front lines.
WEYOUN: Do it.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/529.htm
O'BRIEN: I'm picking something up. It's a large Dominion fleet bearing zero zero four mark zero zero nine.
SISKO: How large?
O'BRIEN: Twelve hundred and fifty four ships.
BASHIR: They outnumber us two to one.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/529.htm
This ‘significant number’ adds up to 1254 ships. We now have Cardassian/Dominion forces of over a thousand, where previously the largest Jem Haddar force seen was 150, in DS9 ‘The Die Is Cast’ (see above).
Also, the Dominion reinforcements coming through the wormhole are also substantial
DS9 ‘Sacrifice Of Angels’
DUKAT: To the conquerors of the Federation.
WEYOUN: Aren't you being a bit premature?
DUKAT: I don't think so. Not with twenty eight hundred Dominion ships waiting to come through that wormhole.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/530.htm
2,800 extra ships are enough to win this war.
DS9 Favour The Bold
ROSS: If those Dominion reinforcements come through the wormhole we'll have lost everything
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/529.htm
Which brings me to the size of the opposition forces. One quote from DS9 ‘When It Rains’, has given rise to fantastic numbers for the overall Dominion/Cardassian/Breen fleet size.
DS9 ‘When It Rains’
ROSS: Well, gentlemen, it seems as if the Klingon fleet is the only thing that stands between us and the Dominion.
ROMULAN: What have we come to?
MARTOK: By tomorrow, we'll have fifteen hundred Klingon vessels ready for deployment.
ROMULAN: With the Breen, the Cardassians and the Jem'Hadar, you're still outnumbered twenty to one.
MARTOK: I am aware of that, General.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/571.htm
First off, notice how the Klingons can now field a fleet of 1500(!) ships. Secondly, some sites have taken the above ‘twenty to one’ quote quite literally, giving the enemy a fleet of 30,000!!! ships (20 x 1500).
See for example The Daystrom Institute Technical Library on Dominion and Cardassian fleet sizes.
http://www.ditl.org/
In the Dominion Fleet size article is the following statement -
“In the aftermath of the Breen's introduction of the energy damping weapon, the Klingons could field only 1,500 ships against a combined fleet of 30,000 - odds of twenty to one.2 Although this situation improved once the Federation had acquired an example of the Breen weapon,2 the numerical odds were still heavily against the allies.”
Others have followed a similar line of reasoning. However, the ‘twenty to one’ figure cannot be talking of ship numbers, for the following reasons.
1) If the enemy forces had really numbered that amount of ships, they would not have needed any reinforcements to simply roll over the Federation, Klingons and Romulans. (given the fleet numbers currently seen by the allies)
2) If the enemy forces had 30,000 ships, then 2,800 extra ones from the Gamma Quadrant is just simply a meaningless addition.
3) There is nowhere near that number of Dominion and Breen ships at the final battle at Cardassia, where all enemy fleets had been pulled back to. Never mind that the alliance fleet would have been hopelessly outnumbered in a battle with enemy numbers on that scale.
4) When Dukat and Weyoun pull back ‘significant numbers of ships from the front lines’ to confront the Federation force in DS9 ‘Favor The Bold’ they can ‘only’ muster 1254 ships. You would expect a hell of a lot more ships if ‘significant numbers’ from a 30,000 strong force are used.
Which all means that this ‘twenty to one’ reference must relate to some other criteria. The only thing I can think of is manpower. All Klingons are warriors, and this war isn’t just about space battles. Planetary land battles are also featured. See for example the DS9 episode
‘Siege of AR-558’ http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/558.htm
Given the rapid production and development of Jem Haddar troops, and the great size of some of their ships eg their battleships and heavy cruisers, I can well believe that on a manpower scale, the number of warriors in a 1500 strong Klingon fleet would well be outnumbered by the combined Jem Haddar, Cardassian and Breen troops by at least twenty to one.
Which now brings us to the conclusion of this article. As we have seen, up to DS9 ‘Favor The Bold’, most fleets were depicted onscreen with only, at most 100 to 150 ships. This DS9 episode and beyond suddenly feature forces numbering in the thousands. Why?
Why would the producers make such a radical change in fleet sizes?
Perhaps the airdate of DS9 ‘Favor The Bold’ may offer a clue. This episode was first aired on October 7 1997
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/episodes.htm
Looking at the opposition sci fi series at the time, Babylon 5, we find that in 1997 they were into their well into their fourth season.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Babylon_5_episodes
This and the previous third season were marked by some massive on screen space battles against the Shadows. See especially
B5 ‘Shadow Dancing’ – airdate October 21 1996
B5 ‘Into The Fire’ – airdate February 3 1997
And the later space battles of the Earth Civil War leading up to
B5 ‘Endgame’ – airdate October 13 1997.
Could it be that the Star Trek producers, seeing how well these giant space battles were rating for the competitor programme, decided to throw continuity to the wind and match it with some extra large space battles of their own?
Only they can answer that one.
But their actions leave us with a problem. How to explain this massive jump in fleet numbers?
We could try and rationalise it by saying the early fleet numbers reflect a Federation at peacetime strength and production, and that when the Klingon War and later Dominion War erupted, full wartime production by all members led to a massive jump in fleet strength. Possibly, but that still doesn’t adequately explain the similar numbers increase in the navies of the other powers.
Hmmm, a problem I will have to give some more thought to.
Regards
Geon
Fleet Sizes
Moderator: thunderchero
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KrazeeXXL
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Re: Fleet Sizes
actually pretty easy to answer. NX was a prototype and Earth knew almost nothing about the surrounding space (that is why T-Pol is that important to them). I'm sure they developed a whole industry about ship building. I mean think about BotF. You need more industry to build ships fastergeon wrote:How to explain this massive jump in fleet numbers?
If you really want to understand that whole matter I suggest you to read about british-german arms race @fleets before ww2. Or the russian-german one about tanks. Or read about Napoleons russia campaign.
The Xindi crises explains that very well. So when do you build a fleet or begin with a mass industrialization process? Of course when you're facing a threat. Like the americans who widely expanded their destroyer fleet to face the immiment threat of german submarines to secure their convoys to GB.
Back to the Xindi: since the universe was a very hostile place building more and more ships was the only answer. You always need a comparable force against enemies or you'll lose.
Good to see with the few ships each races like Vulcans, Andorians had on their own. But together with the Tellarites and earth they became a power in the quadrant which also lead other powers like Roms and Klings to be more expansionist in their behaviour to cope up with the new formed Feds. Result: larger territory = more ships/bigger fleets. That's also the same "formula" in BotF or almost every other strategy game.
It seems to be a core topic in Star Trek. You always have bigger and bigger enemies and every new one is more fierce than the one before. Or more fierce on another level: Dominion vs. BORG.
If you really want to understand Star Trek it isn't enough to watch all the episodes of all series, you have to learn about real history as well. That's why I suggested to dig into arms race a bit. You simply just can't get your answers by watching Star Trek alone.
Hope I was a bit of help.
Re: Fleet Sizes
Hello KrazeeXXL,
Thank you for your reply,
Yes, history can provide examples of rapid expansions of military power. The one that springs to my mind is the massive growth of American armed forces from Pearl Harbour onwards. Before the war, US armed forces were quite small and often using outdated equipment. After Pearl Harbour, American industrial production allowed it to massively increase its armed forces, and even provide support for its allies. It’s fair to say that this industrial capacity and production was a major factor in Allied victory. For a more detailed look into the subject, I can recommend the book, ‘Brute Force’ by John Ellis
We could conceivably apply a similar scenario to Star Trek and the Dominion War. Certainly, the Federation could be said to have the industrial and scientific basis for such an expansion.
HOWEVER,
The United States was only able to achieve this overwhelming production because its factories and cities were well beyond the reach of enemy forces. Its production forged ahead without any serious interference.
In DS9, the Dominion has attacked and occupied quite a bit of Federation territory and planets. Military strikes and sabotage have also destroyed Federation military production facilities and infrastructure.
DS9 ‘In The Pale Moonlight’
SISKO: There's plenty of blame to go around. The Tenth Fleet was supposed to be protecting Betazed and its outlying colonies, but it was caught out of position on a training exercise. What's worse, Betazed's own defence systems are obsolete and undermanned. The planet was theirs in less than ten hours.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/543.htm
And
VREENAK: You are persistent, Captain, I'll grant you that, but dogged determination isn't enough to change the reality of your situation. Time is definitely not on your side. The Dominion shipyards are working at one hundred percent capacity. Yours are still being rebuilt. The Dominion is breeding legions of Jem'Hadar soldiers every day. You're experiencing a manpower shortage. But most important, the Dominion is resolved to win the war at any cost. You and I both know the Federation has already put out peace feelers. Now, in all candor, if you were in my position, which side would you choose?
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/543.htm
So how do they continue to maintain these enormous numbers of ships?
Now yes, the Xindi crisis could be seen as a catalyst for further production, except that during the episodes of ‘Enterprise’ there is no evidence of any major fleet production. Sure, new ships are starting to be built, but in VERY small numbers, highlighting Earth’s very limited production capability at this time.
You mentioned the British, German naval arms race. True enough, but this was nowhere near the level of expansion seen in the DS9 episodes ie from a few hundred to several thousands of ships.
The German Russian tank arms race is also a fascinating topic in its own right. But again, the underlying situations here and in DS9 are not identical. Russia did indeed outproduce the Germans, but only after relocating its factories safely behind the Urals, and only with substantial initial help from its allies. In DS9 these massive fleets appear virtually overnight, and then engage in a losing war of attrition.
My main concern is the sudden increase in ship numbers during this series. As I already stated in the article, there is a fairly consistent pattern of fairly small fleets throughout TNG and early DS9. Even after the Borg are encountered, fleet numbers do not seem to dramatically rise. By DS9 “Favor The Bold’ however, thousands of ships appear out of nowhere. Even if we allow that production clicked into full gear during the earlier Klingon conflict, that still does not leave sufficient time to build these armadas of ships.
I quite agree that historical examples should be used to explain many of the inconsistencies in the various series. But when the writers choose to wilfully disregard any previous continuity issues just to spice up the story, without regard to what was depicted in previous episodes (ie ship numbers), then historical examples may not offer complete explanations.
Thank you for your reply,
Yes, history can provide examples of rapid expansions of military power. The one that springs to my mind is the massive growth of American armed forces from Pearl Harbour onwards. Before the war, US armed forces were quite small and often using outdated equipment. After Pearl Harbour, American industrial production allowed it to massively increase its armed forces, and even provide support for its allies. It’s fair to say that this industrial capacity and production was a major factor in Allied victory. For a more detailed look into the subject, I can recommend the book, ‘Brute Force’ by John Ellis
We could conceivably apply a similar scenario to Star Trek and the Dominion War. Certainly, the Federation could be said to have the industrial and scientific basis for such an expansion.
HOWEVER,
The United States was only able to achieve this overwhelming production because its factories and cities were well beyond the reach of enemy forces. Its production forged ahead without any serious interference.
In DS9, the Dominion has attacked and occupied quite a bit of Federation territory and planets. Military strikes and sabotage have also destroyed Federation military production facilities and infrastructure.
DS9 ‘In The Pale Moonlight’
SISKO: There's plenty of blame to go around. The Tenth Fleet was supposed to be protecting Betazed and its outlying colonies, but it was caught out of position on a training exercise. What's worse, Betazed's own defence systems are obsolete and undermanned. The planet was theirs in less than ten hours.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/543.htm
And
VREENAK: You are persistent, Captain, I'll grant you that, but dogged determination isn't enough to change the reality of your situation. Time is definitely not on your side. The Dominion shipyards are working at one hundred percent capacity. Yours are still being rebuilt. The Dominion is breeding legions of Jem'Hadar soldiers every day. You're experiencing a manpower shortage. But most important, the Dominion is resolved to win the war at any cost. You and I both know the Federation has already put out peace feelers. Now, in all candor, if you were in my position, which side would you choose?
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/543.htm
So how do they continue to maintain these enormous numbers of ships?
Now yes, the Xindi crisis could be seen as a catalyst for further production, except that during the episodes of ‘Enterprise’ there is no evidence of any major fleet production. Sure, new ships are starting to be built, but in VERY small numbers, highlighting Earth’s very limited production capability at this time.
You mentioned the British, German naval arms race. True enough, but this was nowhere near the level of expansion seen in the DS9 episodes ie from a few hundred to several thousands of ships.
The German Russian tank arms race is also a fascinating topic in its own right. But again, the underlying situations here and in DS9 are not identical. Russia did indeed outproduce the Germans, but only after relocating its factories safely behind the Urals, and only with substantial initial help from its allies. In DS9 these massive fleets appear virtually overnight, and then engage in a losing war of attrition.
My main concern is the sudden increase in ship numbers during this series. As I already stated in the article, there is a fairly consistent pattern of fairly small fleets throughout TNG and early DS9. Even after the Borg are encountered, fleet numbers do not seem to dramatically rise. By DS9 “Favor The Bold’ however, thousands of ships appear out of nowhere. Even if we allow that production clicked into full gear during the earlier Klingon conflict, that still does not leave sufficient time to build these armadas of ships.
I quite agree that historical examples should be used to explain many of the inconsistencies in the various series. But when the writers choose to wilfully disregard any previous continuity issues just to spice up the story, without regard to what was depicted in previous episodes (ie ship numbers), then historical examples may not offer complete explanations.
Re: Fleet Sizes
geon wrote:Hello KrazeeXXL,
Even after the Borg are encountered, fleet numbers do not seem to dramatically rise.
I always thought this was a key factor. As to why fleet numbers didn't immediately see a huge increase, however, one needs to keep the following in mind:
After the first Borg invasion of Earth, it's hinted/implied that Starfleet greatly expanded their shipbuilding capacities, probably by an entire order (or two) of magnitude.
However, even with the Federation's advanced technology, it probably would've taken a few years -- at least -- for any new/expanded shipyards to be built. And even once they're in operation, most Starfleet vessels seem to take a minimum of a couple years apiece to construct. So it's not hard to fathom that it might take a solid decade or so for the Feds to achieve the large number of ships that they had in the second Borg invasion and Dominion War.
"Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." -- Pascal
Re: Fleet Sizes
Hi Martok,
My impression after the first Borg attack was that Starfleet was developing new types of weaponry specifically to fight the Borg, rather than any large expansion in fleet numbers.
The Best of Both Worlds, Part One
Stardate: 43989.1 (2366)
HANSON: The truth is, hell, we are not ready. We've known they were coming for over a year. We've thrown every resource we have into this, but still
RIKER: Then you're convinced it is the Borg?
SHELBY: (blonde woman) That's what I'm here to find out. The initial descriptions of these surface conditions are almost identical to your reports from system J two five.
PICARD: Commander Riker wrote those reports. He agrees with you.
HANSON: Commander Shelby took over Borg tactical analysis six months ago. I've learned to give her a wide latitude when I want to get things done. That's how I intend to operate here.
SHELBY: My priority has been to develop some kind, any kind of defence strategy
RIKER: Obviously nothing we have now can stop them.
SHELBY: We've been designing new weapons but they're all still on the drawing board.
HANSON: We expected much more lead time. Your encounter with the Borg was over seven thousand light years away.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/174.htm
By 2371, a good five years after this first attack, a new class of ship, the Defiant, is introduced
2371 – DS9 ‘The Search’
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/database/history6.htm
But this is one example, and that is still the prototype! It seems that they are going for an increase in quality rather than quantity.
When the second Borg invasion occurs in 2373 (ST First Contact), two years later, the Defiant is still the only one of her class in Federation service. This does not indicate any expanded shipbuilding capabilities. We do get to see new types in this battle, ie Saber, Norway, Akira etc, but again, these are not in large numbers, and further reinforces the idea of qualitative improvement in the Federation fleet rather than quantitative expansion.
Even the Enterprise, a brand new Sovereign class, is only the second of her class (the first presumably being the Sovereign itself). We never get to see other Sovereigns in any future episodes of DS9.
As I've stated, in TNG and early DS9, fleet numbers are depicted on screen as very low. If there had been a dramatic increase in ship numbers, why aren't they used??
You are quite correct in noting the time needed for development and construction of new ship types. As already noted, the Defiant took at least five years to develop and construct.
From the destruction of the Enterprise (Galaxy Class) in ST Generations (2371) to the Enterprise (Sovereign Class) in ST ‘First Contact’ (2373) is another two years. Sovereign development time could be even longer if we imagine that Sovereign development work began at the same time as that of the Defiant (so possibly up to five years). Both types appear in the future in VERY low numbers – the Sovereign Enterprise in ST ‘Insurrection’ and ST ‘Nemesis’, while in DS9, apart from the Defiant itself, the only other depictions of this class are the Valiant in DS9 ‘Valiant’, an unnamed Defiant in VOY ‘Message in a Bottle’, and the São Paulo in DS9 ‘Dogs Of War’
All this does not indicate any expanded shipbuilding capability.
Given that open hostilities with the Dominion began in 2373 (the same year as the second Borg invasion), I could imagine that the Federation, to make up for the losses caused by the Borg, and to match the greater numbers of Dominion ships, might start a crash programme of older models to make up the numbers. This may explain why in all the space battles seen in DS9, the bulk of the Federation fleets consist of Excelsiors, Mirandas, and Galaxy classes. It’s faster to mass produce models that are already known rather than construct new ship types with new technologies.
But one year (2373) is too low a figure to produce the thousands of ships depicted in the Dominion War.
If we suppose that Starfleet decided to start building up numbers from the time the Dominion threat was taken seriously, say from DS9 ‘The Search’ 2371, then two years, to DS9 ‘Favor The Bold (2373) and the 600 strong fleet, MAY be sufficient time to produce the fleet sizes we later see. But as I have already stated, there seems to be no onscreen evidence for these large fleets before at least 2373.
Regards
Geon
My impression after the first Borg attack was that Starfleet was developing new types of weaponry specifically to fight the Borg, rather than any large expansion in fleet numbers.
The Best of Both Worlds, Part One
Stardate: 43989.1 (2366)
HANSON: The truth is, hell, we are not ready. We've known they were coming for over a year. We've thrown every resource we have into this, but still
RIKER: Then you're convinced it is the Borg?
SHELBY: (blonde woman) That's what I'm here to find out. The initial descriptions of these surface conditions are almost identical to your reports from system J two five.
PICARD: Commander Riker wrote those reports. He agrees with you.
HANSON: Commander Shelby took over Borg tactical analysis six months ago. I've learned to give her a wide latitude when I want to get things done. That's how I intend to operate here.
SHELBY: My priority has been to develop some kind, any kind of defence strategy
RIKER: Obviously nothing we have now can stop them.
SHELBY: We've been designing new weapons but they're all still on the drawing board.
HANSON: We expected much more lead time. Your encounter with the Borg was over seven thousand light years away.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/174.htm
By 2371, a good five years after this first attack, a new class of ship, the Defiant, is introduced
2371 – DS9 ‘The Search’
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/database/history6.htm
But this is one example, and that is still the prototype! It seems that they are going for an increase in quality rather than quantity.
When the second Borg invasion occurs in 2373 (ST First Contact), two years later, the Defiant is still the only one of her class in Federation service. This does not indicate any expanded shipbuilding capabilities. We do get to see new types in this battle, ie Saber, Norway, Akira etc, but again, these are not in large numbers, and further reinforces the idea of qualitative improvement in the Federation fleet rather than quantitative expansion.
Even the Enterprise, a brand new Sovereign class, is only the second of her class (the first presumably being the Sovereign itself). We never get to see other Sovereigns in any future episodes of DS9.
As I've stated, in TNG and early DS9, fleet numbers are depicted on screen as very low. If there had been a dramatic increase in ship numbers, why aren't they used??
You are quite correct in noting the time needed for development and construction of new ship types. As already noted, the Defiant took at least five years to develop and construct.
From the destruction of the Enterprise (Galaxy Class) in ST Generations (2371) to the Enterprise (Sovereign Class) in ST ‘First Contact’ (2373) is another two years. Sovereign development time could be even longer if we imagine that Sovereign development work began at the same time as that of the Defiant (so possibly up to five years). Both types appear in the future in VERY low numbers – the Sovereign Enterprise in ST ‘Insurrection’ and ST ‘Nemesis’, while in DS9, apart from the Defiant itself, the only other depictions of this class are the Valiant in DS9 ‘Valiant’, an unnamed Defiant in VOY ‘Message in a Bottle’, and the São Paulo in DS9 ‘Dogs Of War’
All this does not indicate any expanded shipbuilding capability.
Given that open hostilities with the Dominion began in 2373 (the same year as the second Borg invasion), I could imagine that the Federation, to make up for the losses caused by the Borg, and to match the greater numbers of Dominion ships, might start a crash programme of older models to make up the numbers. This may explain why in all the space battles seen in DS9, the bulk of the Federation fleets consist of Excelsiors, Mirandas, and Galaxy classes. It’s faster to mass produce models that are already known rather than construct new ship types with new technologies.
But one year (2373) is too low a figure to produce the thousands of ships depicted in the Dominion War.
If we suppose that Starfleet decided to start building up numbers from the time the Dominion threat was taken seriously, say from DS9 ‘The Search’ 2371, then two years, to DS9 ‘Favor The Bold (2373) and the 600 strong fleet, MAY be sufficient time to produce the fleet sizes we later see. But as I have already stated, there seems to be no onscreen evidence for these large fleets before at least 2373.
Regards
Geon
Re: Fleet Sizes
First aff all, great post the first one!!!geon wrote: and further reinforces the idea of qualitative improvement in the Federation fleet rather than quantitative expansion.
Geon
Second, sorry if i don´t write down the source where i took the info, i really don´t know, lol
i have to agree with the quote, i think the federation main goal was always build, good ships in order to be multiuse, and last a long time in duty by reffiting/upgrading, if it was neccesary.
Another thing i have to agree, the federation started to built more ships in the minute they´ve met the dominion and a pending invasion from the borg.
Let think about the prometheus too, it had been built during the dominion war, before the romunals have entered. And because of the multi-vector attack, we know it was built only for the purpose to fight the borg, it wasn´t enough only to built the defiant. Here i know from reading the books, that the prometheus wasn´t so enthusiasticaly announced around the federation, because of it ONLY military purpose...
The moral in the federation played another important role, what if all the citizen knew that the federation stopped building almost to none, explorer ships, before the dominion war started, in order to build battle ships.
Live long and propser
Re: Fleet Sizes
Hi Angel,
I'm glad you liked the post. You bring up a good point concerning the Prometheus. The class is definitely a dedicated warship, like the Defiant. I'm wondering whether the Dominion War has caused a shift in outlook for Starfleet. Whereas previously we have classes which combined research and defence capabilities in equal measure (eg Constitution, Galaxy, Intrepid), the emphasis now seems to be more on combat power, as seen in the Akira, uprated Excelsiors (Lakotas), uprated Galaxies, Defiants, Prometheus and Sovereign.
Whether the Prometheus class appears in larger numbers remains to be seen.
I'm glad you liked the post. You bring up a good point concerning the Prometheus. The class is definitely a dedicated warship, like the Defiant. I'm wondering whether the Dominion War has caused a shift in outlook for Starfleet. Whereas previously we have classes which combined research and defence capabilities in equal measure (eg Constitution, Galaxy, Intrepid), the emphasis now seems to be more on combat power, as seen in the Akira, uprated Excelsiors (Lakotas), uprated Galaxies, Defiants, Prometheus and Sovereign.
Whether the Prometheus class appears in larger numbers remains to be seen.
-
AlexMcpherson79
- Commander
- Posts: 332
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:00 am
Re: Fleet Sizes
I know this is kinda necro'ing the thread, but gotten really into and thoughtful.
Look at the era's we're talking about, and simply what the ships are supposed to do when built.
ENT:
Earth's Starfleet is, realitively, new. Recruitment wouldn't be all that high. I also imagine that they are not yet fully self-contained like TOS-onward - they recruit experts. Look at where the crew of the NX-01 came from: Mayweather former cargoship pilot, Hoshi a known linguist who sidelines her own class on earth, Trip would have been recruited out of university or something for the Warp 5 project, and Malcolm was probably selected via Early-section31's influence.
I imagine recruitment for the rest of the crew was something similar to college-then-military people, where the military doesn't have the education facilities itself, but it does have Basic Training.
These people are recruited to crew the first true explorer ship of the fleet. Before, they wouldn't have needed linguists ("well, we're that close we could probably ask the vulcan's if the universal translator doesn't work" - the version of the device that isn't live) or xenobiologists.... (speaking of, phlox' training isn't even from starfleet or anything, but presumably, his own planets'.)
People are probably still in the phase of, "Look we need to find ourselves before we find out what's out there." Only the 'crazy' are joining up for space adventures. And most of those aren't crazy, they're joining up to defend our planet and colonies.
The threat of the Xindi comes into play, and they start building more ships, but it's slow. there isn't much capacity, and the facilities to repair are the same as those to build, of which there aren't many. Production is currently all done in part on earth and final assembly is done in the drydock facilities in orbit.
It isn't like WW2, as there America had massive industry to do it quickly. And even ships does in a rush job, take time.
And there, Starfleet is probably like modern day navies: Someone in them might design and/or overssee their construction, but the ship itself is NOT a Navy product, but rather what the Navy BOUGHT. (Like how that F-18 Hornet? Yeah, the US Navy bought them from McDonald Douglas. Companies vie for these sort of military contracts when they come up, be it plane or boat.) So they're not even building the Enterprise, the Columbia, the Intrepid. They're just the ones that put the final 'classified' kit in, and crew it.
this carries through to TOS. They're in an explorer gig, and their explorer ships require large crews. It takes time to train people for those roles. And if anything, probably half the non-science/engineering/medical lot are going to smaller ships that would operate in a border patrol or system defence gig as a stepping stone to those. It's fairly reasonable for a captain to know about half of the others by name if they'd cared to 'take note', or simply know them personally.
Now we're into TNG.
In that time, The Exclesior is what, 50-odd? Exploration is the heart of the Federation now. There are lots of people joining the federation so 6,000 people to the fleet of completed first-run galaxy-class ships, in addition to hundreds of 3-600 crew ships are easy to keep 'stocked up', with plenty more assignments to starbases and outposts. Starfleet have probably also taken over civilian production lines to maintain 'safety levels'.
Even so, All of Starfleet is served by ONE academy. Let me put it this way: The US Navy has one. The US Air Force has one. and the US Army has one. all of *Starfleet*, has only One. Sure, they have small facilities here and there, but the main campus is in San Fran. There can't be more than around 2,000 students at any one time. Which equates to what, 500 graduates a year? enough to crew *1* ship, at normal levels. New Starship postings are therefore understandably hard to get, with only a few Starfleet ships a year being built. Even the ship used by the academy is old (until the dom war, when they got the Valiant).
Not only that, but what's the retirement level? With greater age range, there's a decline in retirement, as more wish to stay in service. Look at picard versus Janeway - she took an admirals spot, which picard had always really been pushing off. (A note sort-of commented on in generations/insurrection where 'he spent so long being the captain, he never had time to have a family')
Also, not all of them have human age-spans. Look at Tuvok, who according to canon, had *two* starfleet commissions, which got explored horribly inf lashback, and nicely in the Voyager writers' book Pathways. Yes, Starfleet is expanding in numbers, but not enough to explain fully-crewed large fleets in three or four years. And not fully producing those ships either.
note.
Fully crewed, fully-built.
Say, skeleton crews, and those extra galaxy classes that were rushed into service missing say... science labs, so on? Instead built to be massive troop carriers when possible?
and more numbers taken from mothballed ships...
So ship production was as much to maintain numbers as the older consitutions then excelsiors then mirandas and so on were decommissioned.
but then, the Borg threat.
There aren't many ships close enough to intercept that are comissioned... but there are a lot of decommissioned/old prototype ships that while they worked, just weren't as good as their final version. hence several nebula types, and so on. and the constitution.
But they've had this kick in the teeth. They don't just need quality, but numbers.
DS9.
Fleet numbers are being 'secretly' built up. Federation morality is such that they dont want to be seen being a 'military superpower', even though that's what they are. The Defiant class, as a pure-warship, isn't even being built in great numbers. One however, is used to replace the Academy's trainer ship for Delta Squad. Old ships are being refitted just as much as new ones built. But they dont truly see the threat, hence holding back a lot.
Then the second borg invasion, and right after on it's heels, the dominion war.
They reveal that actually, we do have a sizable force... and this sizable force is exactly why the dominion were bringing in THAT MANY of their own ships in.
The ships are configured for lower-crew numbers, restricted more to war than exploration.
They've got several thousand ships in service, most of them really old ships that had been replaced long ago by Excelsior/Ambassador/Galaxy/Nebula. They're refit and back in service, alongside... Steamrunner (a dev note was that that's an error-became-canon, it was supposed to be 'streamrunner') Akira, Sabre, Defiant, Sovereign. To me, they all say 'military' far more than the previous lot. But those are in smaller numbers than the others. The Sovereign, because as the biggest and newest, it's more akin to command or flagship, the others because most facilities have been bringing said old ships online.
And then in the wake of the war, all those old ships that survived would be put to rest, with the newer designs coming to the fore on production. But they first have to repair and complete the construction on all of those rush-jobs, and bring them up to spec.
So there's no wonder only 6 ships could respond when The Enterprise even 5 years later... They're running ragged picking up the pieces from the dominion war.
For the klingons, it's simple. To use the B5/Minbari thing: Most are warriors with few being workers instead, and they're all religious, with 'the way of the warrior' being the religion. But some warriors go to be workers so that they and others can share in the honour later because there's more ships for the warriors to use, so they're not packed like sardines in a small number of ships. With the war/build up to, more warriors were willing to get their hands in building their ships, as they'd be building the ships they'd be later on fighting with. sort of a 'make your own sword' thing.
and for the romulans? who knows, maybe their isolationist thing was reflected by only having a token fleet even to the war . And maybe the war happened because Starfleet stole their cloaking technology? (hence why, unlike any military, starfleet doesn't use them) And the romulans decided, 'u want peace? then accept these terms', and the terms being 'no cloak'. Imagine the faces on the admirals of those who are realists, compared to the optimists who signed the damn thing?
Look at the era's we're talking about, and simply what the ships are supposed to do when built.
ENT:
Earth's Starfleet is, realitively, new. Recruitment wouldn't be all that high. I also imagine that they are not yet fully self-contained like TOS-onward - they recruit experts. Look at where the crew of the NX-01 came from: Mayweather former cargoship pilot, Hoshi a known linguist who sidelines her own class on earth, Trip would have been recruited out of university or something for the Warp 5 project, and Malcolm was probably selected via Early-section31's influence.
I imagine recruitment for the rest of the crew was something similar to college-then-military people, where the military doesn't have the education facilities itself, but it does have Basic Training.
These people are recruited to crew the first true explorer ship of the fleet. Before, they wouldn't have needed linguists ("well, we're that close we could probably ask the vulcan's if the universal translator doesn't work" - the version of the device that isn't live) or xenobiologists.... (speaking of, phlox' training isn't even from starfleet or anything, but presumably, his own planets'.)
People are probably still in the phase of, "Look we need to find ourselves before we find out what's out there." Only the 'crazy' are joining up for space adventures. And most of those aren't crazy, they're joining up to defend our planet and colonies.
The threat of the Xindi comes into play, and they start building more ships, but it's slow. there isn't much capacity, and the facilities to repair are the same as those to build, of which there aren't many. Production is currently all done in part on earth and final assembly is done in the drydock facilities in orbit.
It isn't like WW2, as there America had massive industry to do it quickly. And even ships does in a rush job, take time.
And there, Starfleet is probably like modern day navies: Someone in them might design and/or overssee their construction, but the ship itself is NOT a Navy product, but rather what the Navy BOUGHT. (Like how that F-18 Hornet? Yeah, the US Navy bought them from McDonald Douglas. Companies vie for these sort of military contracts when they come up, be it plane or boat.) So they're not even building the Enterprise, the Columbia, the Intrepid. They're just the ones that put the final 'classified' kit in, and crew it.
this carries through to TOS. They're in an explorer gig, and their explorer ships require large crews. It takes time to train people for those roles. And if anything, probably half the non-science/engineering/medical lot are going to smaller ships that would operate in a border patrol or system defence gig as a stepping stone to those. It's fairly reasonable for a captain to know about half of the others by name if they'd cared to 'take note', or simply know them personally.
Now we're into TNG.
In that time, The Exclesior is what, 50-odd? Exploration is the heart of the Federation now. There are lots of people joining the federation so 6,000 people to the fleet of completed first-run galaxy-class ships, in addition to hundreds of 3-600 crew ships are easy to keep 'stocked up', with plenty more assignments to starbases and outposts. Starfleet have probably also taken over civilian production lines to maintain 'safety levels'.
Even so, All of Starfleet is served by ONE academy. Let me put it this way: The US Navy has one. The US Air Force has one. and the US Army has one. all of *Starfleet*, has only One. Sure, they have small facilities here and there, but the main campus is in San Fran. There can't be more than around 2,000 students at any one time. Which equates to what, 500 graduates a year? enough to crew *1* ship, at normal levels. New Starship postings are therefore understandably hard to get, with only a few Starfleet ships a year being built. Even the ship used by the academy is old (until the dom war, when they got the Valiant).
Not only that, but what's the retirement level? With greater age range, there's a decline in retirement, as more wish to stay in service. Look at picard versus Janeway - she took an admirals spot, which picard had always really been pushing off. (A note sort-of commented on in generations/insurrection where 'he spent so long being the captain, he never had time to have a family')
Also, not all of them have human age-spans. Look at Tuvok, who according to canon, had *two* starfleet commissions, which got explored horribly inf lashback, and nicely in the Voyager writers' book Pathways. Yes, Starfleet is expanding in numbers, but not enough to explain fully-crewed large fleets in three or four years. And not fully producing those ships either.
note.
Fully crewed, fully-built.
Say, skeleton crews, and those extra galaxy classes that were rushed into service missing say... science labs, so on? Instead built to be massive troop carriers when possible?
and more numbers taken from mothballed ships...
So ship production was as much to maintain numbers as the older consitutions then excelsiors then mirandas and so on were decommissioned.
but then, the Borg threat.
There aren't many ships close enough to intercept that are comissioned... but there are a lot of decommissioned/old prototype ships that while they worked, just weren't as good as their final version. hence several nebula types, and so on. and the constitution.
But they've had this kick in the teeth. They don't just need quality, but numbers.
DS9.
Fleet numbers are being 'secretly' built up. Federation morality is such that they dont want to be seen being a 'military superpower', even though that's what they are. The Defiant class, as a pure-warship, isn't even being built in great numbers. One however, is used to replace the Academy's trainer ship for Delta Squad. Old ships are being refitted just as much as new ones built. But they dont truly see the threat, hence holding back a lot.
Then the second borg invasion, and right after on it's heels, the dominion war.
They reveal that actually, we do have a sizable force... and this sizable force is exactly why the dominion were bringing in THAT MANY of their own ships in.
The ships are configured for lower-crew numbers, restricted more to war than exploration.
They've got several thousand ships in service, most of them really old ships that had been replaced long ago by Excelsior/Ambassador/Galaxy/Nebula. They're refit and back in service, alongside... Steamrunner (a dev note was that that's an error-became-canon, it was supposed to be 'streamrunner') Akira, Sabre, Defiant, Sovereign. To me, they all say 'military' far more than the previous lot. But those are in smaller numbers than the others. The Sovereign, because as the biggest and newest, it's more akin to command or flagship, the others because most facilities have been bringing said old ships online.
And then in the wake of the war, all those old ships that survived would be put to rest, with the newer designs coming to the fore on production. But they first have to repair and complete the construction on all of those rush-jobs, and bring them up to spec.
So there's no wonder only 6 ships could respond when The Enterprise even 5 years later... They're running ragged picking up the pieces from the dominion war.
For the klingons, it's simple. To use the B5/Minbari thing: Most are warriors with few being workers instead, and they're all religious, with 'the way of the warrior' being the religion. But some warriors go to be workers so that they and others can share in the honour later because there's more ships for the warriors to use, so they're not packed like sardines in a small number of ships. With the war/build up to, more warriors were willing to get their hands in building their ships, as they'd be building the ships they'd be later on fighting with. sort of a 'make your own sword' thing.
and for the romulans? who knows, maybe their isolationist thing was reflected by only having a token fleet even to the war . And maybe the war happened because Starfleet stole their cloaking technology? (hence why, unlike any military, starfleet doesn't use them) And the romulans decided, 'u want peace? then accept these terms', and the terms being 'no cloak'. Imagine the faces on the admirals of those who are realists, compared to the optimists who signed the damn thing?
Re: Fleet Sizes
Hello AlexMcpherson 79,
You make some really interesting points in your article. I would like, if I may, add a few comments.
I agree about your ideas concerning the early ‘Enterprise’ era. Certainly, after a devastating world war it would take quite a bit of time to develop shipbuilding infrastructure. The added obstacle of Vulcan hindrance certainly doesn’t help either.
This translates into a slow production and development process for any new vessel entering the fleet, which in turn translates into a very small Earth fleet, as seen in the series.
It isn’t made clear in the series whether the ships were developed by private interests or the military establishment. Certainly, either is possible at this time. Whether there were any private industries capable of such research on their own is again open to speculation. If so, then the initial lack of funds would be a further limiting factor. Another reason why I think the Romulan War was smaller than generally thought.
By the time of the TOS timeline, we are on firmer ground regarding the Federation economy. There are a few episodes showing that a credit based economy is currently operating within the Federation.
In TOS ‘The Devil In The Dark’ the private mining operation on Janus Six ‘could supply the mineral needs of a thousand planets’
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/26.htm
In TOS ‘Mud’s Women’, Kirk was prepared to pay the miners for ‘lithium crystals’.
CHILDRESS: Let's get right to business. You want lithium crystals and we've got them.
KIRK: Fine. I'm authorised to pay an equitable price.
CHILDRESS: We're not sure they're for sale, Captain. We might prefer a swap.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/4.htm
In TOS ’The Trouble With Tribbles’, Cyrano Jones was offering to sell at tribbles at 10 credits each.
UHURA: Are you selling them?
BARMAN: That's what we're trying to decide right now.
JONES: My friend, 10 credits apiece is a very reasonable price. Now you can see for yourself how much the lovely little lady appreciates the finer things.
BARMAN: One credit apiece.
CHEKOV: He won't bite, will he?
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/42.htm
(As a side note, traders like Cyrano Jones and Harry Mudd would not have been possible without a credit based economy to operate in.)
In TOS ‘The Ultimate Computer’, Dr Daystrom, a private researcher, is instrumental in developing new technology for the military.
All this indicates that a monetary economy is operating (at least with regard to Starfleet). While monetary considerations may still put a limit on fleet size, the ever increasing number of Federation members still allows for a reasonable sized fleet. As new planets join, the greater the economic base for development and production. I’m not certain whether you can classify Starfleet as an ‘explorer gig’ at this time. Yes, their ships are pushing forward the frontier and ‘exploring new worlds and new civilisations etc’. But they are doing that primarily to expand the Federation. As in BOTF, the Federation grows by contacting new races and talking them into membership. They are quite prepared to go to war with the Klingons and the Romulans when they feel their interests are threatened (TOS ‘Errand Of Mercy’ and TOS ‘Balance Of Terror’)
During the TOS series, all we really see is the Constitution class as the main Federation ship type. This is to be expected of a series dealing with one ship (the Enterprise), but whether the producers intended to indicate that the Constitution class was the mainstay of the Federation Fleet, or whether other types were around but not shown due to the show’s budgetary restraints is a matter for speculation.
During the early movie series, new ship types are appearing (the refitted Constitution, the Miranda, the Excelsior and the Oberth class). I’m assuming the credit based economy is still in place.
By the time of TNG however, all this has changed.
TNG The Neutral Zone Stardate: 41986.0 (2364)
PICARD: That's what this is all about. A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/126.htm
Within the space of about a century, credit based economics have disappeared from the Federation. We don’t at present, know why.
Whether, as you put it ‘exploration is the heart of the Federation now’ is open to some debate. Certainly, any economic incentive for exploration went out with the usage of credit and the accumulation of monetary wealth. But the political and military benefits (ie new members and new technologies) still exist.
I understand what you are trying to say about the size of Starfleet Academy. That 2,000 odd graduates equates to one manned ship per year, thus limiting the number of ships built and crewed. And that ship postings are hard due to the expanded life spans of future humans, resulting in a production run geared to maintain existing models.
All this is true IF Federation star ships were FULLY manned by Starfleet Academy graduates. But if we are going to take the modern military academies as our model, as you have suggested, then only the higher ranking officers would have come from Starfleet Academy. The rank and file would have come from other organisations.
Lets take Westpoint academy as an example.
‘Students are officers-in-training and are referred to as cadets or collectively as the United States Corps of Cadets (USCC). Tuition for cadets is fully funded by the Army in exchange for an active duty service obligation upon graduation. Approximately 1,300 cadets enter the Academy each July with about 1,000 cadets graduating.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westpoint
The American army is currently over 1 million strong. If all had come from Westpoint, it would take over one thousand years to fill its ranks! We see a similar situation with the US Navy.
US Naval Academy
“it is the second-oldest of the United States' five service academies, and educates officers for commissioning primarily into the United States Navy and United States Marine Corps.
Approximately, 1,300 "plebes" (an abbreviation of the Ancient Roman word plebian) enter the Academy each summer for the rigorous Plebe Summer, but only about 1,000 Midshipmen graduate.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Naval_Academy
Mechanics, ship’s councillors, security personnel (you know, the red shirts that ALWAYS get killed), regular engineers, technicians etc don’t need to have come from the academy. Just as regular US army troops come from boot camp etc, these could have come from other organisations.
Starfleet Academy seems reserved for officers and above. Let’s take a look at some star ship crew compliments.
Miranda – 200
Nova – 80
Oberth - 80
Intrepid - 141
Galaxy - 1014
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships1.htm
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships2.htm
These figures represent TOTAL crew. We can only guess at officer complement. Let’s be conservative and say 10% are officers. This will make officer numbers for the above ships as:
Miranda – 20 officers
Nova – 8
Oberth – 8
Intrepid – 14
Galaxy – 101
Being the largest Federation vessel to date, the Galaxy’s requirements represent the upper limit of officer number per ship. But if we are getting 2,000 graduates from Starfleet Academy each year, that is potentially 20 Galaxy sized officer complements. Of course, there are currently only a handful of Galaxys. Lesser ships will need fewer officers. Let’s say an average of 50 ships of all types could be officer manned by the TNG Starfleet graduations each year.
In 20 years that’s a potential I,000 ships. Given the smaller complements (compared to the Galaxy) being used in newer models (Novas’s, Intrepids, Prometheus, Sovereigns etc), that could be more. If we further assume that the Academy has been churning out 2,000 graduates since at least TOS times (a century back), then we have a potential (with the future extended lifespans) 200,000 officers available for duty between TOS and TNG. That translates as 2,000 Galaxy size ships or 10,000 Mirandas.
The point is that an officer base for a very large fleet is possible. Whether production facilities could speedily supply such a huge number becomes the issue. Can a ‘cashless’ civilisation quickly convert non military facilities to ship production? Clearly, given the later DS9 episodes, this must have happened at some point.
While I agree that older models were maintained during the TOS –TNG interim (ie Mirandas and Excelsiors), newer models also entered service. For example, the Constellation to replace the Constitution, and the Ambassador class (a perfect intermediary between the Excelsior and Galaxy).
While I also agree that the Borg threat was a wakeup call for Starfleet, the impression from the dialogue in ‘Best Of Both Worlds’ and the later small fleet sizes gives the impression of a development of quality rather than quantity
The Best of Both Worlds, Part One
Stardate: 43989.1 (2366)
HANSON: The truth is, hell, we are not ready. We've known they were coming for over a year. We've thrown every resource we have into this, but still
RIKER: Then you're convinced it is the Borg?
SHELBY: (blonde woman) That's what I'm here to find out. The initial descriptions of these surface conditions are almost identical to your reports from system J two five.
PICARD: Commander Riker wrote those reports. He agrees with you.
HANSON: Commander Shelby took over Borg tactical analysis six months ago. I've learned to give her a wide latitude when I want to get things done. That's how I intend to operate here.
SHELBY: My priority has been to develop some kind, any kind of defence strategy
RIKER: Obviously nothing we have now can stop them.
SHELBY: We've been designing new weapons but they're all still on the drawing board.
HANSON: We expected much more lead time. Your encounter with the Borg was over seven thousand light years away.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/174.htm
When we come to DS9, the early episodes again reinforce the smaller fleet sizes. It’s only with the Dominion War that you get the really massive ship numbers. I don’t see how that could ‘secretly’ build up such a massive force without the other powers knowing about it. You would then expect the other Galactic powers to match this number. But as I have already indicated, the fleet sizes of the other powers seem on par with that of the Federation throughout the first half of DS9.
I think the production of ‘military’ types of vessels ie: Sabres, Norways, Akiras, Defiants etc has more to do with the dire military necessity of the moment rather than any radical change in Federation ethics.
Since we have no following series after DS9, who’s to say whether the Federation reverts back to its old diplomatic self or goes off into a newer militaristic future?
Regards
Geon
You make some really interesting points in your article. I would like, if I may, add a few comments.
I agree about your ideas concerning the early ‘Enterprise’ era. Certainly, after a devastating world war it would take quite a bit of time to develop shipbuilding infrastructure. The added obstacle of Vulcan hindrance certainly doesn’t help either.
This translates into a slow production and development process for any new vessel entering the fleet, which in turn translates into a very small Earth fleet, as seen in the series.
It isn’t made clear in the series whether the ships were developed by private interests or the military establishment. Certainly, either is possible at this time. Whether there were any private industries capable of such research on their own is again open to speculation. If so, then the initial lack of funds would be a further limiting factor. Another reason why I think the Romulan War was smaller than generally thought.
By the time of the TOS timeline, we are on firmer ground regarding the Federation economy. There are a few episodes showing that a credit based economy is currently operating within the Federation.
In TOS ‘The Devil In The Dark’ the private mining operation on Janus Six ‘could supply the mineral needs of a thousand planets’
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/26.htm
In TOS ‘Mud’s Women’, Kirk was prepared to pay the miners for ‘lithium crystals’.
CHILDRESS: Let's get right to business. You want lithium crystals and we've got them.
KIRK: Fine. I'm authorised to pay an equitable price.
CHILDRESS: We're not sure they're for sale, Captain. We might prefer a swap.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/4.htm
In TOS ’The Trouble With Tribbles’, Cyrano Jones was offering to sell at tribbles at 10 credits each.
UHURA: Are you selling them?
BARMAN: That's what we're trying to decide right now.
JONES: My friend, 10 credits apiece is a very reasonable price. Now you can see for yourself how much the lovely little lady appreciates the finer things.
BARMAN: One credit apiece.
CHEKOV: He won't bite, will he?
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/42.htm
(As a side note, traders like Cyrano Jones and Harry Mudd would not have been possible without a credit based economy to operate in.)
In TOS ‘The Ultimate Computer’, Dr Daystrom, a private researcher, is instrumental in developing new technology for the military.
All this indicates that a monetary economy is operating (at least with regard to Starfleet). While monetary considerations may still put a limit on fleet size, the ever increasing number of Federation members still allows for a reasonable sized fleet. As new planets join, the greater the economic base for development and production. I’m not certain whether you can classify Starfleet as an ‘explorer gig’ at this time. Yes, their ships are pushing forward the frontier and ‘exploring new worlds and new civilisations etc’. But they are doing that primarily to expand the Federation. As in BOTF, the Federation grows by contacting new races and talking them into membership. They are quite prepared to go to war with the Klingons and the Romulans when they feel their interests are threatened (TOS ‘Errand Of Mercy’ and TOS ‘Balance Of Terror’)
During the TOS series, all we really see is the Constitution class as the main Federation ship type. This is to be expected of a series dealing with one ship (the Enterprise), but whether the producers intended to indicate that the Constitution class was the mainstay of the Federation Fleet, or whether other types were around but not shown due to the show’s budgetary restraints is a matter for speculation.
During the early movie series, new ship types are appearing (the refitted Constitution, the Miranda, the Excelsior and the Oberth class). I’m assuming the credit based economy is still in place.
By the time of TNG however, all this has changed.
TNG The Neutral Zone Stardate: 41986.0 (2364)
PICARD: That's what this is all about. A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/126.htm
Within the space of about a century, credit based economics have disappeared from the Federation. We don’t at present, know why.
Whether, as you put it ‘exploration is the heart of the Federation now’ is open to some debate. Certainly, any economic incentive for exploration went out with the usage of credit and the accumulation of monetary wealth. But the political and military benefits (ie new members and new technologies) still exist.
I understand what you are trying to say about the size of Starfleet Academy. That 2,000 odd graduates equates to one manned ship per year, thus limiting the number of ships built and crewed. And that ship postings are hard due to the expanded life spans of future humans, resulting in a production run geared to maintain existing models.
All this is true IF Federation star ships were FULLY manned by Starfleet Academy graduates. But if we are going to take the modern military academies as our model, as you have suggested, then only the higher ranking officers would have come from Starfleet Academy. The rank and file would have come from other organisations.
Lets take Westpoint academy as an example.
‘Students are officers-in-training and are referred to as cadets or collectively as the United States Corps of Cadets (USCC). Tuition for cadets is fully funded by the Army in exchange for an active duty service obligation upon graduation. Approximately 1,300 cadets enter the Academy each July with about 1,000 cadets graduating.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westpoint
The American army is currently over 1 million strong. If all had come from Westpoint, it would take over one thousand years to fill its ranks! We see a similar situation with the US Navy.
US Naval Academy
“it is the second-oldest of the United States' five service academies, and educates officers for commissioning primarily into the United States Navy and United States Marine Corps.
Approximately, 1,300 "plebes" (an abbreviation of the Ancient Roman word plebian) enter the Academy each summer for the rigorous Plebe Summer, but only about 1,000 Midshipmen graduate.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Naval_Academy
Mechanics, ship’s councillors, security personnel (you know, the red shirts that ALWAYS get killed), regular engineers, technicians etc don’t need to have come from the academy. Just as regular US army troops come from boot camp etc, these could have come from other organisations.
Starfleet Academy seems reserved for officers and above. Let’s take a look at some star ship crew compliments.
Miranda – 200
Nova – 80
Oberth - 80
Intrepid - 141
Galaxy - 1014
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships1.htm
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships2.htm
These figures represent TOTAL crew. We can only guess at officer complement. Let’s be conservative and say 10% are officers. This will make officer numbers for the above ships as:
Miranda – 20 officers
Nova – 8
Oberth – 8
Intrepid – 14
Galaxy – 101
Being the largest Federation vessel to date, the Galaxy’s requirements represent the upper limit of officer number per ship. But if we are getting 2,000 graduates from Starfleet Academy each year, that is potentially 20 Galaxy sized officer complements. Of course, there are currently only a handful of Galaxys. Lesser ships will need fewer officers. Let’s say an average of 50 ships of all types could be officer manned by the TNG Starfleet graduations each year.
In 20 years that’s a potential I,000 ships. Given the smaller complements (compared to the Galaxy) being used in newer models (Novas’s, Intrepids, Prometheus, Sovereigns etc), that could be more. If we further assume that the Academy has been churning out 2,000 graduates since at least TOS times (a century back), then we have a potential (with the future extended lifespans) 200,000 officers available for duty between TOS and TNG. That translates as 2,000 Galaxy size ships or 10,000 Mirandas.
The point is that an officer base for a very large fleet is possible. Whether production facilities could speedily supply such a huge number becomes the issue. Can a ‘cashless’ civilisation quickly convert non military facilities to ship production? Clearly, given the later DS9 episodes, this must have happened at some point.
While I agree that older models were maintained during the TOS –TNG interim (ie Mirandas and Excelsiors), newer models also entered service. For example, the Constellation to replace the Constitution, and the Ambassador class (a perfect intermediary between the Excelsior and Galaxy).
While I also agree that the Borg threat was a wakeup call for Starfleet, the impression from the dialogue in ‘Best Of Both Worlds’ and the later small fleet sizes gives the impression of a development of quality rather than quantity
The Best of Both Worlds, Part One
Stardate: 43989.1 (2366)
HANSON: The truth is, hell, we are not ready. We've known they were coming for over a year. We've thrown every resource we have into this, but still
RIKER: Then you're convinced it is the Borg?
SHELBY: (blonde woman) That's what I'm here to find out. The initial descriptions of these surface conditions are almost identical to your reports from system J two five.
PICARD: Commander Riker wrote those reports. He agrees with you.
HANSON: Commander Shelby took over Borg tactical analysis six months ago. I've learned to give her a wide latitude when I want to get things done. That's how I intend to operate here.
SHELBY: My priority has been to develop some kind, any kind of defence strategy
RIKER: Obviously nothing we have now can stop them.
SHELBY: We've been designing new weapons but they're all still on the drawing board.
HANSON: We expected much more lead time. Your encounter with the Borg was over seven thousand light years away.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/174.htm
When we come to DS9, the early episodes again reinforce the smaller fleet sizes. It’s only with the Dominion War that you get the really massive ship numbers. I don’t see how that could ‘secretly’ build up such a massive force without the other powers knowing about it. You would then expect the other Galactic powers to match this number. But as I have already indicated, the fleet sizes of the other powers seem on par with that of the Federation throughout the first half of DS9.
I think the production of ‘military’ types of vessels ie: Sabres, Norways, Akiras, Defiants etc has more to do with the dire military necessity of the moment rather than any radical change in Federation ethics.
Since we have no following series after DS9, who’s to say whether the Federation reverts back to its old diplomatic self or goes off into a newer militaristic future?
Regards
Geon
-
outerexodus
- Ensign
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:19 pm
Re: Fleet Sizes
Great thread so far!
As for the manpower issue, the Federation isn't served by just the one Starfleet Academy, they have multiple annex's around the Federation, Wesley took exams at one other than Earth, couple other quotes from episodes i'm too tired to find at the moment, my apologies.
In general fleet sizes, when we reach DS9 era, i tend to look at it somewhat like the US navy is now. Several fleets, each fleet having a large swath of area to contend. Under normal operations, these fleets would be spread out relatively thin to cover more ground and conduct routine patrols. In the case of smaller Starfleet fleet's being scrapped together, it probably has a great deal to do with the enormous size of the Federation and the relative area each fleet is given to patrol. Such as Wolf 359, the fleets in the area were most likely spread thin under normal operations and 40 is what they could must in short notice. After all, we're talking many lightyears and lightyears of responsibility. Since TNG I've always felt that Starfleet has thousands of ships. With such a huge area to patrol and how fleets would be layed out in normal duties, it just seemed logical. Not to mention the heavy bias toward science and exploration of the Federation. When taking into consideration that bias, it would be logical to assume Starfleet has a great many ships scouring the galaxy out beyond the Federation's borders. Also if we look at the example of the US navy, Starfleet very probably has a "mothball fleet" that stands inactive but could quickly be made ready for active duty in the event of an emergency.
Strength-wise, even when Vreenak speaks to Sisko about the UFP facing manpower and shipbuilding shortages, someone asked about being able to field a large force. I think it goes to the attitude toward shipbuilding that the Federation has when compared to their adversaries. Many times throughout the shows we see other races frustrated with the number of backup and redundant systems Starfleet has when compared to their own. Taking this into account, one can guess that Starfleet vessels by design are much more resilient and durable over longer lifespans than most, if not all, of their competing empires. Except maybe the Klingons and D-7/K'T'Inga class ships being used for hundreds of yeas... but that's a different issue, and probably one of just having the same ship-line active for that long producing new ones...
Well, I think I made a couple points... If not, I blame the 12-hour shift i just worked...
As for the manpower issue, the Federation isn't served by just the one Starfleet Academy, they have multiple annex's around the Federation, Wesley took exams at one other than Earth, couple other quotes from episodes i'm too tired to find at the moment, my apologies.
In general fleet sizes, when we reach DS9 era, i tend to look at it somewhat like the US navy is now. Several fleets, each fleet having a large swath of area to contend. Under normal operations, these fleets would be spread out relatively thin to cover more ground and conduct routine patrols. In the case of smaller Starfleet fleet's being scrapped together, it probably has a great deal to do with the enormous size of the Federation and the relative area each fleet is given to patrol. Such as Wolf 359, the fleets in the area were most likely spread thin under normal operations and 40 is what they could must in short notice. After all, we're talking many lightyears and lightyears of responsibility. Since TNG I've always felt that Starfleet has thousands of ships. With such a huge area to patrol and how fleets would be layed out in normal duties, it just seemed logical. Not to mention the heavy bias toward science and exploration of the Federation. When taking into consideration that bias, it would be logical to assume Starfleet has a great many ships scouring the galaxy out beyond the Federation's borders. Also if we look at the example of the US navy, Starfleet very probably has a "mothball fleet" that stands inactive but could quickly be made ready for active duty in the event of an emergency.
Strength-wise, even when Vreenak speaks to Sisko about the UFP facing manpower and shipbuilding shortages, someone asked about being able to field a large force. I think it goes to the attitude toward shipbuilding that the Federation has when compared to their adversaries. Many times throughout the shows we see other races frustrated with the number of backup and redundant systems Starfleet has when compared to their own. Taking this into account, one can guess that Starfleet vessels by design are much more resilient and durable over longer lifespans than most, if not all, of their competing empires. Except maybe the Klingons and D-7/K'T'Inga class ships being used for hundreds of yeas... but that's a different issue, and probably one of just having the same ship-line active for that long producing new ones...
Well, I think I made a couple points... If not, I blame the 12-hour shift i just worked...
Re: Fleet Sizes
Hi outerexodus,
Glad you can join the discussion.
I’m not aware of any other major academy in the Federation. Could you supply further data in that regard?
Whether the current US navy is a good example of the on screen situation with Starfleet is somewhat debatable. Currently the US navy has something like 280 odd ships, as given in Wikipedia (don’t know how accurate this is)
US
321,053 active duty personnel[2]
286 ships[2]
3,700+ aircraft
11 aircraft carriers
9 amphibious assault ships
8 amphibious transport docks
12 dock landing ships
22 cruisers
61 destroyers
26 frigates
71 submarines
2 littoral combat ships
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_navy
Now, this doesn’t seem like much, but it’s comparable or larger than their major rivals (China and Russia). Plus, the US has the support of allied navies in NATO, ANZUS etc, so in any conflict, it is likely to have a numerical advantage.
The situation in DS9 is far different. Whatever the true size of Starfleet, it seems comparable to its immediate rivals, the Klingons and Romulans. In TNG ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’, the Federation fought a twenty odd year war with the Klingons – sure they were slowly losing, but it took a hell of a long time! Throughout TNG the Romulans were spoiling for a showdown with the Federation but were constrained by the Klingon alliance.
With the Dominion, we have an opponent that, in the Gamma quadrant at least, has access to far more ships than the Romulans, Federation and Klingons put together. The fact that the Dominion War only involved an initial small advanced Dominion force in the Alpha Quadrant which was cut off by a minefield only highlights their ability to rapidly build up their forces. Yes, they had support from the Cardassians, but the relatively short time that was needed to build up a fleet capable of taking on the combined Federation/Klingon strength and winning says a lot.
The initial war between the Dominion/Cardassians on the one side and the Federation/Klingons on the other saw a conflict of attrition which the Federation side was losing. Even the addition of the Romulans on one side and the Breen on the other didn’t alter the slowly shifting tide against the Federation side. Only the late defection of the Cardassians tipped the scales.
I don’t know whether you can say that Starfleet ships were deliberately designed to be more resilient and durable than other races. Certainly, their excellent shielding helps them survive in combat situations. But to date we have seen only three Federation designs carried forward from the movie era to the TNG era – the Excelsior, Oberth and the Miranda. These designs have been in service for over a century, a period matched by the Klingon K’tinga and Bird of Prey.
Many Federation designs don’t seem to have lasted all that long. The original Consitution design was built in 2240, and subsequently refitted in 2271, lasting then till the 2290’s before being decommissioned, a life of some 50 years. Its replacement, the Constellation was commissioned in 2280. The Constellation itself lasted till 2370, a more respectable 90 years.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships1.htm
We have yet to see whether any of the newer types, like the Akira, Intrepid and Nova, last as long.
The Excelsior’s replacement, the Ambassador was launched in the early 24th century. The Ambassador’s replacement, the Galaxy, appears in 2364, while the Galaxy’s replacement, the Sovereign appears in 2373.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships2.htm
My impression is that the Federation seems to build more specialised ships than other races. Yes, they can do more than one task well. Excelsiors, Ambassadors, Galaxies and Sovereigns all have impressive research facilities on board. As ‘explorers’, they must be able to analyse new discoveries. But they’re primarily battleships for their time, the largest most powerful ships in the fleet.
Similarly, Oberths are dedicated research vessels, Mirandas seem to be dedicated light warships.
Most other races seem to incorporate new technology into a few proven designs – the Klingons with their D7 and K’tinga models and the various Bird of Prey models; the Cardassians with their Galor types and then Keldon; the Romulans with upgraded D’deridex models, scouts, science vessels and shuttles. One model fulfils a given task. These are upgraded as required.
This undoubtedly makes production easier – the factories are geared to build the hull, all you need do is put in the new tech. The Federation seems to build entirely new ships with new technology developed. The Constitution gives way to the Constellation, The Excelsior gets the Ambassador, the Ambassador the Galaxy etc.
Some designs, such as the Oberth, Miranda and Excelsior, seem to last a long time – perhaps they are ‘good enough’ at what they do to not justify being totally replaced by the newer models. But you end up with a fleet containing multiple models for each class.
Large ‘explorers’ (ie battleships) – Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, Sovereign
Smaller explorers – Intrepid, Nova, Akira
Patrol vessels – various Miranda models, Sabre, Norway, Defiant
Research vessels – Oberth
Plus all the other models seen at Wolf 359.
(Now, it’s possible there are many more classes in the other navies which have not been shown. But going by current onscreen evidence, the Federation seems to introduce far more models more frequently than any other navy – look how long it took the Klingons and Romulans to introduce the Negh Var and Valdore!)
Cheers
Geon
Glad you can join the discussion.
I’m not aware of any other major academy in the Federation. Could you supply further data in that regard?
Whether the current US navy is a good example of the on screen situation with Starfleet is somewhat debatable. Currently the US navy has something like 280 odd ships, as given in Wikipedia (don’t know how accurate this is)
US
321,053 active duty personnel[2]
286 ships[2]
3,700+ aircraft
11 aircraft carriers
9 amphibious assault ships
8 amphibious transport docks
12 dock landing ships
22 cruisers
61 destroyers
26 frigates
71 submarines
2 littoral combat ships
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_navy
Now, this doesn’t seem like much, but it’s comparable or larger than their major rivals (China and Russia). Plus, the US has the support of allied navies in NATO, ANZUS etc, so in any conflict, it is likely to have a numerical advantage.
The situation in DS9 is far different. Whatever the true size of Starfleet, it seems comparable to its immediate rivals, the Klingons and Romulans. In TNG ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’, the Federation fought a twenty odd year war with the Klingons – sure they were slowly losing, but it took a hell of a long time! Throughout TNG the Romulans were spoiling for a showdown with the Federation but were constrained by the Klingon alliance.
With the Dominion, we have an opponent that, in the Gamma quadrant at least, has access to far more ships than the Romulans, Federation and Klingons put together. The fact that the Dominion War only involved an initial small advanced Dominion force in the Alpha Quadrant which was cut off by a minefield only highlights their ability to rapidly build up their forces. Yes, they had support from the Cardassians, but the relatively short time that was needed to build up a fleet capable of taking on the combined Federation/Klingon strength and winning says a lot.
The initial war between the Dominion/Cardassians on the one side and the Federation/Klingons on the other saw a conflict of attrition which the Federation side was losing. Even the addition of the Romulans on one side and the Breen on the other didn’t alter the slowly shifting tide against the Federation side. Only the late defection of the Cardassians tipped the scales.
I don’t know whether you can say that Starfleet ships were deliberately designed to be more resilient and durable than other races. Certainly, their excellent shielding helps them survive in combat situations. But to date we have seen only three Federation designs carried forward from the movie era to the TNG era – the Excelsior, Oberth and the Miranda. These designs have been in service for over a century, a period matched by the Klingon K’tinga and Bird of Prey.
Many Federation designs don’t seem to have lasted all that long. The original Consitution design was built in 2240, and subsequently refitted in 2271, lasting then till the 2290’s before being decommissioned, a life of some 50 years. Its replacement, the Constellation was commissioned in 2280. The Constellation itself lasted till 2370, a more respectable 90 years.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships1.htm
We have yet to see whether any of the newer types, like the Akira, Intrepid and Nova, last as long.
The Excelsior’s replacement, the Ambassador was launched in the early 24th century. The Ambassador’s replacement, the Galaxy, appears in 2364, while the Galaxy’s replacement, the Sovereign appears in 2373.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships2.htm
My impression is that the Federation seems to build more specialised ships than other races. Yes, they can do more than one task well. Excelsiors, Ambassadors, Galaxies and Sovereigns all have impressive research facilities on board. As ‘explorers’, they must be able to analyse new discoveries. But they’re primarily battleships for their time, the largest most powerful ships in the fleet.
Similarly, Oberths are dedicated research vessels, Mirandas seem to be dedicated light warships.
Most other races seem to incorporate new technology into a few proven designs – the Klingons with their D7 and K’tinga models and the various Bird of Prey models; the Cardassians with their Galor types and then Keldon; the Romulans with upgraded D’deridex models, scouts, science vessels and shuttles. One model fulfils a given task. These are upgraded as required.
This undoubtedly makes production easier – the factories are geared to build the hull, all you need do is put in the new tech. The Federation seems to build entirely new ships with new technology developed. The Constitution gives way to the Constellation, The Excelsior gets the Ambassador, the Ambassador the Galaxy etc.
Some designs, such as the Oberth, Miranda and Excelsior, seem to last a long time – perhaps they are ‘good enough’ at what they do to not justify being totally replaced by the newer models. But you end up with a fleet containing multiple models for each class.
Large ‘explorers’ (ie battleships) – Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, Sovereign
Smaller explorers – Intrepid, Nova, Akira
Patrol vessels – various Miranda models, Sabre, Norway, Defiant
Research vessels – Oberth
Plus all the other models seen at Wolf 359.
(Now, it’s possible there are many more classes in the other navies which have not been shown. But going by current onscreen evidence, the Federation seems to introduce far more models more frequently than any other navy – look how long it took the Klingons and Romulans to introduce the Negh Var and Valdore!)
Cheers
Geon
Re: Fleet Sizes
maybe a significant amount of those 1000 Fed ships were attack fighters as they are small and specialised for combat. for the Card/Dom fleet there could've been a large amount of Hideki class too. as they are similar.
Re: Fleet Sizes
think missing alot key factors, fact federation space over 8000 light years across it take long time for ships to travel that type of distance, 40 ships at wolf 359, was more or less spot on, borg cube travel alot faster than most federation starships can even go, and even the ones than go that fast, can't go for long.
borg go warp 9.6 for permanent from evidence, where most federation travel at warp 6-7, even enterprise can only go at warp 9.6 for limited time, 48 hours max I believe, under idealist conditions, was with the borg could only do for 2-3 hours if remember it right and after that spend serval hours repairing it ships.
peace time only mean ships on alot different mission mainly scientific in nature, and some on deep space missions for 3-5 years, so pretty much not going huge fleet in one at anyone time, difference between TNG and DS9 simple full scale war was on, and federation, cancelled on mission and start getting it fleet into groups as saw early on fleet small at around 100-120, was until later they got to around the 300 ship mark.
20 ships by cardrissian and rolumans pretty easily explained by the fact do by intelligence agency only. not the government permission, so of course amount going small, as show it more than enough to take out the planet, just don't work.
1500 Klingon, 20-1 pretty much mistake, even if not, more like just means bird pay and there only good in groups of 3's.
sorry about shit grammar and spelling mistakes.
borg go warp 9.6 for permanent from evidence, where most federation travel at warp 6-7, even enterprise can only go at warp 9.6 for limited time, 48 hours max I believe, under idealist conditions, was with the borg could only do for 2-3 hours if remember it right and after that spend serval hours repairing it ships.
peace time only mean ships on alot different mission mainly scientific in nature, and some on deep space missions for 3-5 years, so pretty much not going huge fleet in one at anyone time, difference between TNG and DS9 simple full scale war was on, and federation, cancelled on mission and start getting it fleet into groups as saw early on fleet small at around 100-120, was until later they got to around the 300 ship mark.
20 ships by cardrissian and rolumans pretty easily explained by the fact do by intelligence agency only. not the government permission, so of course amount going small, as show it more than enough to take out the planet, just don't work.
1500 Klingon, 20-1 pretty much mistake, even if not, more like just means bird pay and there only good in groups of 3's.
sorry about shit grammar and spelling mistakes.