Fixing the turn slow down

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FIXbotfPLEASE
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Fixing the turn slow down

Post by FIXbotfPLEASE »

Hi guys

There is some good work here and many ways to improve the AI in this game.

However the turn slow down is STILL this games MAJOR flaw and if you improve the AI the turn slow down gets worse.

Now I suggest people here have tried and can not properly fix this alone.

But now Microprose are back. So I would suggest for all to contact Microprose and let them know how much of us still love this game and want the issues fixed.

Microprose have a DISCORD server / chat so that would be the best place to contact them and let your thoughts known allthough they are on other platforms too like Twitter, etc etc.




Thank you !
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thunderchero
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by thunderchero »

I have already attempted to contact everyone originally involved in development of BOTF and no one still has the info required to make fixes like that.

keep in mind BOTF was sold by microprose to atari then they sold it to Spectrum HoloByte, but by the time it was sold to Spectrum HoloByte no files were transferred only the name was sold (in a group sale) and Spectrum HoloByte never gave any support.

we know what the problem is, BOTF uses smartheap, smartheap limits memory and cpu usage so game would not get over worked and code is so embedded it can not be removed without having the proper files.

so contacting a company that no longer owns the game would be pointless. plus their rights to use star trek material expired 15 years ago.
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Mr_Sloan
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by Mr_Sloan »

In my experience after shifting to mpr++ patch and flash harddisc, turns are quite fast.

As long as the amount of ships is not too much. 50 ships per player is no problem, even on big maps in turn 200+, large Map. Somewhere i also heared saving all 50 turns and reloading helps.

I intend to do a mod with higher upkeep for ships, so that there is a natural limit that ensures performance.
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Spocks-cuddly-tribble
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

thunderchero wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:20 amwe know what the problem is, BOTF uses smartheap, smartheap limits memory and cpu usage so game would not get over worked and code is so embedded it can not be removed without having the proper files.
A nicer way of saying they screwed the entire code on all sublevels by forcing a recursive and out of control 'read, write and calculate the same crap all over again' nightmare.

There is no physical way to revert this, regardless of any files someone might have. This must have been done in early stages of programming and compiling. So even if we get hands on an earlier version of game code, not affected by this, we couldn't use it since it had even more unfinshed code, bugs and errors than current 1.0.0 - 1.0.2.

And even if there was a way to run 150+ AI ships per AI empire with great range (and massive tactical combats) smoothly with no lag, the AI is still dumb like a hardcore Pakled....
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Mr_Sloan
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by Mr_Sloan »

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:37 am
And even if there was a way to run 150+ AI ships per AI empire with great range (and massive tactical combats) smoothly with no lag, the AI is still dumb like a hardcore Pakled....
true. thats why multiplayer is so loveable.
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by Dewbacca »

With the code corrections over the years and improvement in CPU speeds, I don't notice the turn times at all anymore.

Ok, couple that with the fact I have been trained to get up and go do something else for a few minutes at turns end for 2 decades.

What turn lag? I refreshed my coffee and turn is over.
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Mr_Sloan
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by Mr_Sloan »

i am on turn 220 here. no turn lag but 40 vs40 ships crashed when 1 ship was left to be killed. worked in the 2nd attempt.
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FIXbotfPLEASE
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by FIXbotfPLEASE »

Mr_Sloan wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:16 am

I intend to do a mod with higher upkeep for ships, so that there is a natural limit that ensures performance.
i think your mod idea wont work

i think AI IGNORES ship maintainence costs

so they will still just keep build & build more ships no matter what you change upkeep into
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by Mr_Sloan »

well then AI ships need to be killed. or if they are to powerfull start at a lower level.

@Thunderchero can you confirm that they ignore ship costs? Would it work then letting them build more big ships (in trek.exe modding) to slow down their total amount of ship numbers?
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by thunderchero »

yes the AI cheats in many ways (every way it can) to the AI credits are unlimited.
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by Mr_Sloan »

ok, i hope build costs and time is still stalling them.
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by Flocke »

thunderchero wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:20 am keep in mind BOTF was sold by microprose to atari then they sold it to Spectrum HoloByte, but by the time it was sold to Spectrum HoloByte no files were transferred only the name was sold (in a group sale) and Spectrum HoloByte never gave any support.
According to https://www.classicdosgames.com/company/microprose.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_HoloByte Spectrum HoloByte was acquired by Hasbro Interactive and later sold again to become part of Atari. Atari then at some point sold all its pc gaming IP in some auction sale, but not all of it and the IP was split to multiple auctions. Not sure what happened to BotF then.

Whatever, when someone fit in coding is willing to give it a try, I'm confident that the ship movement takes most of the ai calculation and turn processing time and same time it surely makes up for the dumbest part in ai behaviour given the system buildup and research and all is compensated by cheating. When you turn off the ai ship movement and ship orders all together chances are that the code can be hooked for some own calculation, moving the ships and setting new orders with some smarter algorithm ( even the dumbest possibly beats botf here ). Any research in that regard is highly welcome.
For hooking the code we have some good documentation already but I'm happy to give some pointers.
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by thunderchero »

Flocke wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:52 am Whatever, when someone fit in coding is willing to give it a try, I'm confident that the ship movement takes most of the ai calculation and turn processing time
yeah if you turn off the AI, turn processing was so fast I could not even start a stop watch :shock:
this was on a 2 min turn processing saved game

here is patch/location to turn off AI

Code: Select all

NAME: Disable AI for testing
DESC: Disables AI turn processing code.
AUTHOR: QuasarDonkey
TAG: enhancement
>> 0x576d1  E8 7A B4 FA FF
<< 0x576d1  90 90 90 90 90
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by Pegasus »

thunderchero wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:31 am
Flocke wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:52 am Whatever, when someone fit in coding is willing to give it a try, I'm confident that the ship movement takes most of the ai calculation and turn processing time
yeah if you turn off the AI, turn processing was so fast I could not even start a stop watch :shock:
this was on a 2 min turn processing saved game

here is patch/location to turn off AI

Code: Select all

NAME: Disable AI for testing
DESC: Disables AI turn processing code.
AUTHOR: QuasarDonkey
TAG: enhancement
>> 0x576d1  E8 7A B4 FA FF
<< 0x576d1  90 90 90 90 90
If the existing AI is bad and causing the slowdown and can be turned off; could a new better AI be coded?
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FIXbotfPLEASE
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Re: Fixing the turn slow down

Post by FIXbotfPLEASE »

thats all the game needs Peagasus to make it good - a new AI that is more of a challenge and a dose not make the turn goes slow
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