Is it normal for games to go well past Turn 500?

[PTRACER]

I'm on my third ever 'proper' game of vanilla BOTF (all games from 2001 to 2020 failed within 50-60 turns until I watched a YT playthrough) and for the third time in a row, I'm past 500 turns again with no end in sight.

Quick summary, playing as Romulans, large galaxy, normal difficulty, Vendetta mode. Decided my strategy would be all-out-destruction of anyone and everything that opposed me.

Spent the first 250-300 turns sitting in my corner of the galaxy quietly researching and building up my forces. Got lucky and made friends with a few minors who have VERY high Industry ratings (Tamarians, Chalnoth, Andorians) so was able to build a lot of ships quite quickly. All other planets around me were uninhabited so colonised as much as possible and armed them to the teeth with as many orbital batteries as I could get away with. Finally decided around about turn 400 I had enough to start challenging the other majors.

Fast forward a hundred turns, I have almost entirely decimated the Feds, whose empire was the size of mine when I started attacking. Klingons fell by themselves very early on thanks to another AI. However, Cardassian territory is even bigger than mine (Intel also says more warships) and Ferengi is not far off. I think to beat the other two I'll need at least another 300-400 turns, meaning it'll be Turn 1000 before I'm done.

Is that normal?

[Flocke]

The longest game ever I know of was reported a few months back and lasted 1877 turns before it broke: viewtopic.php?p=56326#p56326

When there are no technical issues, you did not mod the game and don't redeploy your fleets all the time, by my experience vanilla BotF most of the time is pretty stable.

The more AI ships exist, however the turn processing slows down. Which is why I'd never let the AI keep building ships so many turns.

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

Spent the first 250-300 turns sitting in my corner of the galaxy ... Is that normal

Not with vanilla default map sizes (larger maps sadly screw the AI).

In vanilla it's all about learning how to exploit the miscellaneous unfinished code bugs. E.g. in low tech games manly focus research for science booster structures and then auto-upgrade certain ships and scrap them for 4/5 times the money; and/or abusing the minor race evolution jumps. Also the AI stupidity is very predictable, e.g. just destroy an oupost at the right time and they will scrap their overpowered invasion fleets instead of attacking the system. Once you learned that stuff games will get much faster.

If you want a real game you need play a harder mod or in vanilla set higher AI starting levels with higher difficulty level + AI needs fair map starting positions (very random in vanilla). And avoid any cheats or save scumming.

[cleverwise]

For me I usually go over 500 turns. Of course I also do not usually accept the surrender and play until I take over the whole map (sometimes with an ally).

[PTRACER]

Sorry I posted this and never replied. Actually I was a little embarrassed, because my game lasted less than 10 turns more and it declared the Cardies as the winner

I'm sure there are many exploits in vanilla but I'm closing my eyes to them and trying to play properly. After that I'll give ECM a go, which presumably fixes many of these exploits?

I've had to reinstall Windows since I posted the above, but luckily I backed up literally everything and kept separate SAV files every 70-80 turns (anyone else do that?). I have loaded back at turn 418 and declared war on Cardassia. The Ferengis and Federation still exist, but the Feds only seem to have one ship and the Ferengi three. I have so much territory and I'm spending so much on upkeep and since I have cut all trade ties with the Cardies I presume I need to start scrapping unneeded hardware in each star system else I won't be able to build more warships.

This is feeling like a bit of a grind but if I bide my time I think I can win this....

[PTRACER]

The longest game ever I know of was reported a few months back and lasted 1877 turns before it broke: viewtopic.php?p=56326#p56326

When there are no technical issues, you did not mod the game and don't redeploy your fleets all the time, by my experience vanilla BotF most of the time is pretty stable.

The more AI ships exist, however the turn processing slows down. Which is why I'd never let the AI keep building ships so many turns.

That's crazily long but I can imagine it happening, especially if you don't try to take control of the map from early on and none of the majors gain a clear advantage. It took until Turn 700 just for me to meet all the minor races and I've purposely left the Ferengi and Feds with a few planets which is helping to prolong it.

Agreed it's pretty stable, no crashes so far and turns are processed for me within 1-2 seconds. Only one game breaking bug so far, which is minors not being diplomatically contactable after being liberated from a major. That's what stopped me meeting all minors until I patched the EXE.

The other two: After liberating the Acamarians from the Ferengi, they joined me in membership but their Acamarian Raiders remained on the Ferengi's side. I couldn't control them, only fight against them. And finally I sometimes get some blank dialogue boxes come up sometimes. Usually if I lose a system. Not sure if either of these are fixable....

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

I'll give ECM a go, which presumably fixes many of these exploits?

Yes, but be aware it's an experimental mod also restoring unfinished features. Most players hate to have all the free stuff taken away from them (upgrade & scrap, insta-terraform, phantom dilitihum). E.g. in ECM you need a command ship (or station) in your fleet to unlock solo mode targeting of single enemy ships. ECM concept: viewtopic.php?p=46152#p46152

Latest version is part of top 10 mods: viewtopic.php?p=57818#p57818

After liberating the Acamarians from the Ferengi, they joined me in membership but their Acamarian Raiders remained on the Ferengi's side. I couldn't control them, only fight against them. And finally I sometimes get some blank dialogue boxes come up sometimes. Usually if I lose a system. Not sure if either of these are fixable....

- empires retain minor ships from memberships if treaties end (you need to wait for them to build new ships)
- you cannot "liberate" minor members, only conquer or bribe to end membership?

- most blank dialogue boxes were fixed in ECM (I don't recall the specific patches

[PTRACER]

After liberating the Acamarians from the Ferengi, they joined me in membership but their Acamarian Raiders remained on the Ferengi's side. I couldn't control them, only fight against them. And finally I sometimes get some blank dialogue boxes come up sometimes. Usually if I lose a system. Not sure if either of these are fixable....

- empires retain minor ships from memberships if treaties end (you need to wait for them to build new ships)
- you cannot "liberate" minor members, only conquer or bribe to end membership?

The Acamarians had been subjugated. So, first I freed them, then I pumped them with credits and they joined me in membership within a few turns. However their 7 ships retained the Ferengi icon and when I entered their system, despite their membership we ended up in combat. I had to destroy the ships. Since then, they have not built any more for themselves (maybe because they are now a member?). It would be nice to see more minor race ships flying around my galaxy.

Re: ECM, I presume there have been a number of fixes since the AIO on the main site was released so will grab the AIO above. Everything you suggested sounds like a welcome change to the gameplay....except the Planet Killer, because who wants yet another way to die?

Thanks for everything you guys are doing to keep this game alive. I'm in the process of editing the assembly code of a well-known 90s racing game so I understand the struggle of trying to locate and patch code.

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

The Acamarians had been subjugated. So, first I freed them, then I pumped them with credits and they joined me in membership within a few turns. However their 7 ships retained the Ferengi icon and when I entered their system, despite their membership we ended up in combat. I had to destroy the ships. Since then, they have not built any more for themselves (maybe because they are now a member?). It would be nice to see more minor race ships flying around my galaxy.

This suggest a terminated membership (ships owned by empire and retained - default) and subjugation afterwards?

Yes, by default only independent minors build ships (very random).

Yes, most old AIO mods are pretty outdated (hence new beta tests).

[slickrcbd]

I know on this board there is a patch to allow you to construct ships belonging to minors that have been made members of your faction in said minor's home system.
I just can't find the link, I think it's in the bookmark file on my old computer from when I had trouble syncing them and just said "screw it" when I couldn't re-council the two bookmark files without spending days sorting it out. Note that the problem is fixed, it happened years ago.

[PTRACER]

The Acamarians had been subjugated. So, first I freed them, then I pumped them with credits and they joined me in membership within a few turns. However their 7 ships retained the Ferengi icon and when I entered their system, despite their membership we ended up in combat. I had to destroy the ships. Since then, they have not built any more for themselves (maybe because they are now a member?). It would be nice to see more minor race ships flying around my galaxy.

This suggest a terminated membership (ships owned by empire and retained - default) and subjugation afterwards?

Honestly. no idea....

[PTRACER]

I know on this board there is a patch to allow you to construct ships belonging to minors that have been made members of your faction in said minor's home system.
I just can't find the link, I think it's in the bookmark file on my old computer from when I had trouble syncing them and just said "screw it" when I couldn't re-council the two bookmark files without spending days sorting it out. Note that the problem is fixed, it happened years ago.

Presumably this?
viewtopic.php?f=190&t=822

I saw it is also built into Ultimate Editor, but you lose the special ships if you activate this patch.

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

viewtopic.php?f=190&t=822 but you lose the special ships if you activate this patch.

Special ships is a pretty pointless feature. I won't invest time in analysing this code (Utopia Planitia bonus to ship construction & morale is good enough).

IIRC the AI ignores the special ships? It affects only players when losing home system or Utopia Planitia gets destroyed via bombing or intel sabotage (still all special ships in all build queues can be finished ).

With this patch you can build former special ships same as all others. 'Disabled' means pointless limitation removed.

[PTRACER]

viewtopic.php?f=190&t=822 but you lose the special ships if you activate this patch.

Special ships is a pretty pointless feature. I won't invest time in analysing this code (Utopia Planitia bonus to ship construction & morale is good enough).

IIRC the AI ignores the special ships? It affects only players when losing home system or Utopia Planitia gets destroyed via bombing or intel sabotage (still all special ships in all build queues can be finished ).

With this patch you can build former special ships same as all others. 'Disabled' means pointless limitation removed.

I thought special ships referred to Crystalline Entity, Calamarain etc. ?

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

I thought special ships referred to Crystalline Entity, Calamarain etc.

BotF calls those 'monster' (random events, special case Borg, exception Combat Drone & EDO God).

IIRC vanilla default is just for federation Galaxy-X, Sovereign & Defiant.

And note the patch means "Buildable ships based on resident race", so nice for pet-universe players, but toxic for game balance...