1.0.3 (ECM) original release post

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trekker-
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Post by trekker- » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:52 pm

Sorry it just seems lazy. After all it only took about 5 seconds to do. If I had known it was so simple and how to do it sooner, I would have.

I'm still thankful for all the good work that's done and for the models in the first place.

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Post by KrazeeXXL » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:29 pm

mickar, it's a big difference between not to know how to use this bug and to play this game as it was meant to be *yawn³*

plz, stick with 1.02 and play your 20 turn games with those other msn guys who like to play this game in the same way. I don't see why I should scrap my ships to get some credits.

You own galactic scrapyards,

and I rule empires!

:lol:

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Post by mickar » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:01 pm

Some ppl just don't know how to kill their opponent in 20 turns. Try as they might, they just don't have the skill level. That's why they complain and complain, knowing full well they will never reach the skill level of a vet botf player.

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Post by ruthlessferengi » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:27 pm

keep the scrap, but modify it to something reasonable - 60-70% value.
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Post by thunderchero » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:23 pm

Currently set to 50% rounded up.

Funny thing reading some old posts even Mickar stated some months ago the value When set to 50% has very little effect when building max fleets quickly.
mickar wrote:As far as the scrap thing goes, the effect was not as great as I had originally thought. I was comparing it to bop, before actually downloading and playing it, and was worried it took away too much from the skill players and gave too much to the non-skill players.
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mickar
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Post by mickar » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:49 pm

I have no problem if ppl change the scrap values. I play udm lots and it's 50% too.

What I object to is calling the scrap feature in botf a 'bug'. It's not a 'bug' It's a part of the game and the good ships builders know how to utilize this feature to its' fullest extent.

Changing the scrap to 50% accomplishes what? Now it's half a 'bug'? lol I'll still use it efficiently to get credits to make ships.

And what is this 'play the game the way it's supposed to be played'? The object of botf is to kill your opponent. This will never change....never. And the only way to kill your opponent is to destroy him with ships. That is botf. Want a different game? Then go play it.

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Post by KrazeeXXL » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:27 am

mickar wrote: And what is this 'play the game the way it's supposed to be played'? The object of botf is to kill your opponent. This will never change....never. And the only way to kill your opponent is to destroy him with ships. That is botf. Want a different game? Then go play it.
What a lovely quote of "Mr.BotF", isn't it?

I played a game with only one "scout fight" in it ;)

So I didn't destroy anything at all but at the end I won!

I just wanted to say that there are many ways to play and win this game and you don't have "to kill your opponent" to reach the goal of total domination...

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Post by Flocke » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:22 am

I've played many games with exploiting the "scrap feature". Have builded tons of colony ships and troop transports and scouts just to scrap them after upgrading.
That's no fun to me anymore and never really has been. I know in SP I don't have to use it, but it's already a penalty to be able exploiting it. And in MP it's just nasty.

I know in the original concept of botf it was meant to receive back the work being achieved. That's been a great idea!
Unluckily that's not the way this "feature" is used. Many games offer features that can be greatly abused but aren't identified as a bug.
They just didn't realize their great feature having such side effects.
So fixing it doesn't mean to fix a bug in their code but a failure of their concept. It's clear that there's not the one solution but in my opinion it's one of the key problems to target.

When using an outcome reduction to fix their conceptual failure, 50% is nearly useless cause with scrapping upgraded colony ships you still get more credits out than you've invested. As long as there's not a better solution, I prefer a 25% scrap cause this one prevents that exploit and still gives alot credits.

A better solution definitely would be to check how expansive the ship has been and to use a second money pool that only can be used rebuilding new ships. Implementing something like this would be very tricky, too tricky for me. ;)

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Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble » Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:35 pm

thunderchero wrote:Are there any bug fixes/exploits that need to be added.
Here’s one more for you: :)

minor race hidden(from diplomacy) fix
thunderchero wrote:And I have thought about returning ship scrapping to vanilla value :wink:
I agree with your take on this.

EDIT:
thunderchero wrote:My plans (…) replacement of models in ship pack option.
How it's going with the promissed high-poly tribble ships? lol


mickar wrote:And the scrap for money feature is a part of botf and not a bug.(…)
What I object to is calling the scrap feature in botf a 'bug'. It's not a 'bug' It's a part of the game…
What is a bug isn't subject of subjective user opinions, but of code evidence & developer statements.
As I pointed out, all available evidences strongly indicate that ship-scrapping 1:1 is just an unfinished code part. Looking at the code my guess is square-root was planned.
mickar wrote:Changing the scrap to 50% accomplishes what? Now it's half a 'bug'? lol
Correct, since we've no clear evidence, my vote is leave it by vanilla default, instead of a "arbitrary" correction.
mickar wrote:IMHO, people who complain about the scrap feature are people who don't know how to use it.
It does nihilistic disable a key aspect of BotF: empire wide & system - resources.

Without it, race specific strategies are forced to become more different.


@KrazeeXXL, I do not appreciate your defacement of my statements. In fact I said vanilla need some of its bugs to keep the (Vanilla ish) balance. Fixing of ship scrapping issue = need of further tweaks. Keep in mind this isn't aim of 1.0.3!
On the verge of a nervous breakdown? Try the relaxing tribble sounds.

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Post by mickar » Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:49 pm

Ok, as far as the making lots of say colony 1 ships then upgrading them and scrapping them at their much higher value, I agree that this is a rather easy and unrealistic way to obtain credits.

However, this feature is available to all. Everyone can do it.

Is there some way to not make ships automatically upgraded? I mean if I have a colony 1 ship and I reach the research level for colony 2, my colony 1 ship shouldn't automatically upgrade. It should stay at colony 1.

If that could be done, the need to change scrap value would be eliminated.

Edit: The scenario of making 1 ships then upgrading and scrapping the 2 ships really only happens on low tech games and on large maps. Radically changing the game of botf just to satisfy a large map strategy doesn't make much sense to me.

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Post by thunderchero » Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:07 pm

Yes, editing upgrades could be done. But would no longer be the main idea behind this project. :wink: This is not BOP.

So to end this debate. (at least as for 1.0.3 project)

next update of 1.0.3 will remain the same at 50% scrap value.
My thoughts behind this is to basicly decrease the bonus of waiting for ships to upgrade before scraping.

new 1.0.4 This mod will have all the same bug fixes as 1.0.3 but use vanilla values and settings for scrapping

I would also like to ask all of you in the future if you want to debate "scrap" please start a new post and not flame same point over and over.

thunderchero

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Post by ruthlessferengi » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:19 pm

There will be no happiness and compromise on this issue as guys have very strong opinions about this issues and all have a point. i say make 1.0.4 (vanilla with fixes), 1.0.3 (more fixes added - diplomacy etc but 50% scrap), heck add 1.0.NADA one - i.e. no scrap.... make all mods in three versions - no scrap, 50%, and 100% return - and will roam to their camps and play nicely with their likeminded friends

edit: make it even one of the conditions to play the game, similar to universe size/difficulty level... it may be worthwhile to make a starter program akin to what Joker had - to open up a game, you have to chose whatever level of scap you are willing to tolerate, and that will modify the files to reflect you choice and load up appropriate flavor. problem is, can't really combine it with WZ, can you?
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Post by Flocke » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:58 am

ruthlessferengi wrote:problem is, can't really combine it with WZ, can you?
Sure you can, you'd just have to register the launcher instead of trek.exe to the registry, or you can name the launcher program trek.exe and find another name for current trek.exe. Players would have to select same settings to prevent crashing.

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Post by thunderchero » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:55 pm

Hi Everyone,

1.0.3a is ready for testing.

here is link;

link removed


I am hoping if all goes well this will be final release and added to download section.

1.0.3a info;

All patches from 1.0.3 have not been changed from first post.
instant terraform fix
hindered raid message (partial) fix ("raid messages")
map range tech field database fix
Outpost/Starbase self-repair fix
Crew Experience fixes ( 1, & 3 )
Phantom-Dilithium fix
Cardassian Intel/Research display fix
minor race hidden(from diplomacy) fix
Larger maps 30x22, 40x30, 52x39 with extended view option.
english and german in one download.
some models changed in ship pack option.
new scale values for all models in ship pack.
Stardust's edited fernegi model textures.

please test and give feedback.

once testing is complete all trek.exe's will be edited and 1.0.4a will be released with vanilla scrap values.

Note: once zeusqc creates some new ferengi models they will be added too.

thunderchero
Last edited by thunderchero on Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by mickar » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:15 am

What is the phantom dilithium 'fix'. What was 'fixed'?

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