1.0.3 (ECM) original release post

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mickar
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Post by mickar » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:24 pm

lol

The 'trick' is to double click on your system again to get rid of the not enough dilithium message.

How is that a 'trick'? How is that 'exploiting'?

Only nOObs don't know how to do it. Instead of 'fixing' the great game of botf to cater to nOObs, teach the nOObs how to play.

This is my opinion.

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Post by Mentat » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:30 pm

I totally agree with DCER, and many other BOTF players that are surely not "noobs", that those bugs in botf make it a strange game to play.

I for once am done with MP after my first tournament, since I simply didn't enjoy playing it the "pro" way. Its like cheating, it spoils the fun, even if you win. The real strategic and tactical abilities are of little importance if all you do in a Player vs Player is exploit a games weaknesses to overcome your opponent. Even if both do it, and it stays competitive, you are so occupied with the strange playstyle that is necessary to keep up with your adversary, that all the fun part of the game gets lost. Its like mixing up "Chess" and "Go".
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Post by mickar » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:41 pm

Yes it's true. I've been called a cheater many times because I can build massive fleets quickly.

This is why I'm a vet player and others, well, are not.

I freely offer my council to the nOOb players, err or should I say the players of lesser skill. I don't hide any of the 'tricks' to become a better player.

Do the nOObs accept my council? No. They would rather recode the great game of botf to fit their lesser skill level.

This is my opinion and I'm not being rude. I haven't addressed my comments to anyone in particular. I called the so-called 'fixes' stupid, which they are, imho and I've stated why.

If the makers of the mod can't accept criticism then they shouldn't put the mod out for public consumption.

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Post by thunderchero » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:45 pm

One point that everyone has missed.

Each mod is a completely new game. (and 1.0.3 is a mod too)

So each mod should never be compared to another.

So new strategies are needed for each mod.

If you are interested in playing any mod you need to forget what you have learned and adapt to the modders concept. (modders should not have to adapt to you)

no one forces anybody to play.

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Post by stardust » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:05 pm

thunderchero wrote:One point that everyone has missed.

Each mod is a completely new game. (and 1.0.3 is a mod too)

So each mod should never be compared to another.

So new strategies are needed for each mod.

If you are interested in playing any mod you need to forget what you have learned and adapt to the modders concept. (modders should not have to adapt to you)

no one forces anybody to play.

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Agreed. :wink:

And anyway, if it weren't for the tireless work of Thunderchero, DCER Gowron et al with their breakthroughs, mods and patches to get the game working on modern PC's this game would have probably faded to a dim memory by now.
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Post by KrazeeXXL » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:42 pm

I dunno how deep coded it is but I would like to see dilithium as some second type of "maintenance-cost" which is needed and used to be as some kind of fuel for moving fleets. If you don't have enough you should be penalized.

So an idea I recently had is that one dilithium could be used to move one fleet. If you have one dil less as you need - then one fleet shouldn't be able to be moved around.

After many discussions with Flocke I know how hard even the smallest idea is to be implemented into this old game we all love that much.
So I try to be realistic and don't expect such radical changes (at once). They always sound small for me in the beginning but if I think more and more about them... they get bigger and bigger. Almost exponential ;)


Even if it is "sometimes" very annoying I can somehow understand mickars stubborn attitude. Very often it seems to me like a wrong-headed point of view but I have to admit that the shadow-dil-fix is incomplete. But I think that it is needed. You can call me a n00b or whatever. I don't care. Most of us play this game since a decade and seriously you can't call anyone a n00b then but it seems that you have to... Perhaps just to be satisfied or whatever. But again I don't care. Your attempts of critizism are rarely constructive for me and I often can't see your point or seriously - even what you want. Don't mistaken me. I like to discuss game-mechanisms but it has to be constructive. So plz leave your arrogant msn-mp-style in the multiplayer forum where it (unfortunaly) belongs to.

If anyone would've been satisfied with BotF then no mods were here and nothing else. Just nothing. Try to be pleased every day and hour with what you and we have here and that there still is a community about our favourite game. I didn't act this way very often, too, so I have to excuse myself (mostly to tc).

So... erm... even if the fix isn't complete as yet I know that modding and fixing is always a running process. This is what I learned from tc here @ afc. Sometimes it all looks for me like the work of a cobbler. ;)

So I'm not really satisfied with the solution as it now is but it is better then no change at all. I'm Borg so I love perfection but much more important is the attempt to change anything at all. I deeply appreciate the work of our BotF-masters and their ideas and all the work and years they put in.

The motto is that even some small steps can cover a distance after some time.
And what a great distance already lays behind this old game!

I really love to see a new version of this mod. I love to play 1.03. Some of the most annoying bugs are eliminated in this mod (I mean ctd's btw). It's just awesome and I'm glad and thankful for everyone who is involved with it.

big thx :!: :D

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Post by mickar » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:53 pm

It just occurred to me that the people who like these changes don't play multi anyway. So why should I care.

Although, I would love to play one of them using their 'fix-all-the-bugs-mod just to prove that it doesn't matter how many 'fixes' you do to botf, the better players always rise to the top.

I'll be in warzone if any of you botf single players want to play with the big boys. 8) 8) 8)

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Post by Flocke » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:46 am

you really must feel lonely in warzone mickar, you really must feel lonely to talk like that... all the time...
Keep your beliefs, we're really not interested. :P
Whenever I play the game, no matter if sp or mp, I play it for having fun, nothing more and nothing less, just for fun. Seems like a foreign word for you.

Btw,
DCER wrote:In vanilla you have to make sure not to get the message saying there's a dilithium shortage to be able to build more than one ship at a time. But if memory serves me correctly only as many as you have dilithium can be completed per turn.
First is wrong, second is true, the messages doesn't mean anything cause it's computed in turn progress independantly. The 'trick' is, presuming no ships are build, you start building as many ships as you have dilithium available, now if and only if one or more of them doesn't finish next turn, any further ships you build will keep progressing (if more than one turn is remaining, or 2nd rule of DCER doesn't apply), else, if all of the first ships finish no dilithium is available for the rest and no further ships can progress.

I totally agree that this is an inconsistent bahavior of botf that needs fixing in what ever way.
Last edited by Flocke on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by stardust » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:55 am

mickar wrote:It just occurred to me that the people who like these changes don't play multi anyway. So why should I care.

Although, I would love to play one of them using their 'fix-all-the-bugs-mod just to prove that it doesn't matter how many 'fixes' you do to botf, the better players always rise to the top.

I'll be in warzone if any of you botf single players want to play with the big boys. 8) 8) 8)
Illness and a stubborn POS of a PC I've given up on trying to coerce into letting me play MP is why you won't see me in Warzone.

Anyway, back to the topic in hand. Thunderchero, you mentioned a bug in the code earlier on, may I ask what it involves?
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Post by thunderchero » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:09 am

once again this was my error in input of new code not the code it self.

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Post by mickar » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:30 am

flocke and stardust,

I never insulted you personally, why do you feel the need to insult me?

Anyway, dilithium doesn't need to be changed. This is the advice of a seasoned veteran botf player who actually plays in multi player mode, you know, the way the game was designed.

If you are trying to make botf a better single game, fine, but before you destroy this beautiful game with your single player radical ideas you might want to consult with someone who actually plays the game.

Or you can continue insulting me. Don't worry, I can take it and it wouldn't surprise me as that seems to be your guys' character.

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Post by stardust » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:20 pm

^ I wasn't aware I'd said anything insulting. *shrugs shoulders*
thunderchero wrote:once again this was my error in input of new code not the code it self.

thunderchero
Ah right.
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Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:55 pm

Why I can’t see the minor race hidden fix on the list? :cry:


@ Dilithium

Dilithium code was restored via usage of code from dilithium displays i.e. you simple have to look at the displays to prevent wastages of system production (note one click delay).

I agree, due to the stupid dilithium implementation in BotF, the intended original concept, in fact does unbalance the game. But the 1.0.3 project doesn't care about balance. It restores bugged code regardless of its popularity. So complaints have to go to the original game developers. They created both: 1.) the bugs & 2.) hints in bugged/unfinished code how it was intended to be. And no opinions whatsoever will affect this evidence in any way.
mickar wrote:Anyway, dilithium doesn't need to be changed. This is the advice of a seasoned veteran botf player who actually plays in multi player mode, you know, the way the game was designed.
The relevant counter was mistakenly placed at the wrong position. So I've no idea what you're talking about. As you can see above, I already said disabling of dilithium (i.e. keeping the bug) is better for (vanilla) game balance. But this isn't the vanilla topic here afaik (but I could be mistaken, as it seems).

And insult/annoyance isn't the point here. It's people with to much online time in their hands. Same issue as with the member, which annoyed some multi-players all over the day, just because he was bored. IIRC you suggested to open a topic for people who want to play and one for those who don't want, to get rid of the problem. Have we to do here the same?

Btw, I don’t dislike you. It’s great that you help keeping this community alive, but’s going the wrong way lately.
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Post by thunderchero » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:07 pm

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote:Why I can’t see the minor race hidden fix on the list? :cry:
it is in there I just screwed up once again. and did not add fix to list.

also check your PM's

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Post by mickar » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:30 pm

Botf was designed and intented to be an online multi player game. I think we can all agree on that.

What I find annoying is how people who never or rarely play the game in multi mode seem to think they have the knowledge or experience to make decisions that affect multi player play. That to me is the height of arrogance.

Learning and/or thinking about theory is all well and good but real life play is quite different than the theory. It's like any game. You read the manual and 'think' you know how to play but then actually play the game, as it was intended, and things are different.

If the topic had been changed to single player discussion on changing botf I would not have commented at all and this whole hoopla would have been avoided.

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