Combat Discussion

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

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Spocks-cuddly-tribble
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Initial positioning of ships in fleets? E.g. ST Armada 2 easy option -> warships front, special frigate middle, artillery behind.
But has to be revisited for cloak/surprise attack and/or defender postioning advantage due to lower arrival delay factor (if used).
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by Iceman »

Misfire wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:28 pm
In BotF only if all other own ships get destroyed or retreat as well. TTs in invasion fleets always retreat, but stay in sector if the fleet wins.
It is up to you guys if you want to change this game mechanic in Supremacy?
Yea, it's probably worth discussing how it works in Supremacy. When playing the game early on I was a little surprised the first time I retreated that the fleet set a long course back to safety. Almost needs to be 2 separate orders. One for just retreating to safety from the battle, the other retreat to (base, own system etc). Adds more complexity though, which isn't always the greatest.
In Supremacy a fleet will retreat when all ships in the fleet (not all owned ships/fleets) retreat or get destroyed.

The retreat path (to owned sector) can be cancelled though.

All of this can (and probably should) be changed, yes.
We probably don't need 2 separate "strategic" retreat orders, but a "tactical" retreat order in battle, like StandBy, that any ship can use regardless if its fleet used the Retreat order (pre-battle) or not?
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NayThanLok
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by NayThanLok »

Hi all,

I’ve gotten to over turn 200 and explored deep into multiple enemy territories who I am at war with - yet I rarely ever come across a single enemy ship, let alone a fleet.

But all empires do seem to expand like crazy.

Is this lack of combat because I am playing with AI set to normal?
Do I need to increase difficulty in order to get a more aggressive response from enemy empires?
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by Iceman »

Have you been at war with them for long, or is it a recent thing? Civs will adapt their shipbuilding strategy according to their state; during expansion all resources are channeled to colonization, but as soons as there are contacts, and especially when at war, warships start being built.
The code still needs to be improved, though.

You can check how many ships each empire currently has (and is building), but it's a cheat.
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NayThanLok
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by NayThanLok »

About 50 turns - but I’ll stick with it. These mods for botf and this completely new game are amazing. I’m as hooked now as I was 20 years ago! Thanks
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the6the
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by the6the »

I just had an interesting outcome in a battle.
My scout III (Fed) just killed a cloaked Romulan cruiser I in first round, even though it was retreating that round. It was just the two ships in the battle, in Romulan space. The scout's shield were nearly depleted, but I couldn't help feeling this battle's outcome was strange. Sure, the tech difference is huge, but still.. It was a cloaked Romulan cruiser!
Do retreating vessels fire all weapons? Should they? If so, perhaps the torpedoes shouldn't fire. The reasoning behind that being: in order to fire torpedoes, you need to align the ship in a certain way so that the torpedo bays are directed in the general direction of the target, which is quite difficult, when you're trying to get the hell out of there.
If I recall, in BOTF retreating ships didn't fire at all. Or did they fire their beams? I can't remember, it been a while since my last BOTF game.
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by Iceman »

the6the wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:28 pm I just had an interesting outcome in a battle.
My scout III (Fed) just killed a cloaked Romulan cruiser I in first round, even though it was retreating that round. It was just the two ships in the battle, in Romulan space. The scout's shield were nearly depleted, but I couldn't help feeling this battle's outcome was strange. Sure, the tech difference is huge, but still.. It was a cloaked Romulan cruiser!
So let me seeif I understand the battle correctly.
You issued the retreat order to your scout. The cloaked Romulan cruiser fired first, and hit your shields. Then your scout fired back and destroyed the cruiser.
Is this accurate?

Did the Romulan cruiser decloak right after firing (and before you fire at it)?

Do retreating vessels fire all weapons? Should they? If so, perhaps the torpedoes shouldn't fire. The reasoning behind that being: in order to fire torpedoes, you need to align the ship in a certain way so that the torpedo bays are directed in the general direction of the target, which is quite difficult, when you're trying to get the hell out of there.
If I recall, in BOTF retreating ships didn't fire at all. Or did they fire their beams? I can't remember, it been a while since my last BOTF game.
I'm looking at the code and retreating ships shouldn't fire (I fixed that a few patches back).
I suppose you don't have a savegame?
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by the6the »

Yes that is correct. It was the first turn, so I didn't get to see when it de-cloaked, or who fired when. It was cloaked at the beginning of the battle, I pressed retreat, and it was destroyed on the next screen. The scout's shield were damaged, but that's it.
Is there somewhere in the log I could see who fired when?
I found a save 3 turns before, and just skipped the turns until the event.
I'm sending you the savegame the turn before the event. Just press "end turn", then retreat, and it should happen again. I tried recreating it on my rig and it happens every time (scout firing). The cruiser is destroyed in about every 2 out of 3 tries.

I think I have the test version previous to the current one installed. It's not old though.

edit: Just saw there's a new patch since yesterday. So I should have the version before the previous patch
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by Iceman »

the6the wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:52 pm Is there somewhere in the log I could see who fired when?
Yes, there's a logging tool that, when enabled, can show you the combat log. See attached pic.
But it needs to be streamlined a bit, makes combat too slow in larger battles.

I found a save 3 turns before, and just skipped the turns until the event.
I'm sending you the savegame the turn before the event. Just press "end turn", then retreat, and it should happen again. I tried recreating it on my rig and it happens every time (scout firing). The cruiser is destroyed in about every 2 out of 3 tries.
So far, for me, the Cruiser always decloaks (gains some shields) and fires first (it has the initiative), and the Scout retreats (with some damage to the shields) without firing a single weapon. I'll keep trying to reproduce.

I think I have the test version previous to the current one installed. It's not old though.

edit: Just saw there's a new patch since yesterday. So I should have the version before the previous patch
I uploaded the new patch about 5 hours ago.
The fix I mentioned regarding retreating ships was in the jan8 patch. There have been no other changes to combat since.


There's something (else) odd in that game though. The 2 encounters before this one, with the Cardassians. Even though they're Friendly, their Scout retreats in the first encounter (vs your Scout) and the Destroyer engages your Scout in the 2nd...
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by Iceman »

Iceman wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:08 pm There's something (else) odd in that game though. The 2 encounters before this one, with the Cardassians. Even though they're Friendly, their Scout retreats in the first encounter (vs your Scout) and the Destroyer engages your Scout in the 2nd...
Found the issue. It's because of this:
the6the wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 4:32 pm Also should you be able to open fire on a race you have open borders with? I thought that not being able to was reserved for the affiliate level? But in this later game, I can't fire on the Klingons once we sign an OB agreement (nor can their OP stop my movement, or initiate combat) IMO this should be on affiliate or better. With open borders you should be able to initiate a possible combat. Am I wrong?
When this was fixed, some other changes were required (for the AI to handle it correctly).
Though in this case, both your fleets were parked in Cardassian colonies, and them being Treacherous and all...
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by Iceman »

Iceman wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:08 pm There's something (else) odd in that game though. The 2 encounters before this one, with the Cardassians. Even though they're Friendly, their Scout retreats in the first encounter (vs your Scout) and the Destroyer engages your Scout in the 2nd...
Working on (fixing) this.
Not that the result should be much different, since your ships *are* trespassing on Cardassian territory, spying on their colonies. even a Friendly civ shouldn't tolerate this, I guess. And the Cards are not exactly strict adherents to the agreements they sign :twisted:
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by the6the »

Tested with the new patch. I can confirm your findings on all accounts, including the Card battles (which weren't occurring before I upgraded to the patch). The cruiser wins every time now with no return fire from the scout III.
It was due to my patch being old.
I am also getting into battles with other friends now as well. The Doms have just killed a scout of mine in their territory, while scouting their colonies after a open boarders agreement was signed a few turns prior. So it's not just the Cards being their old treacherous selves.
I'll try and see if the Klingons attack me after an OB pact. But I'm guessing it's across the board.
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Re: Combat Discussion

Post by Iceman »

Yes, it's across the board. Should be fixed in the next patch.
I can release it for you now, if it's important to keep playing, but it's not finished yet.

Right now, scouts in colonies of Neutral civs, and Friendly Cards (only) are engaged; still need to find a way to only engage parked scouts, and maybe scouts in claimed (but not owned) systems.
Also, colony ships in unowned systems are also engaged, but I need to add some other factors - like if the system is desired for colonization by the (engaging) civ, the system's colonization value, etc.
I don't want to make this too penalizing, with too many skirmishes.
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