Factions

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

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Iceman
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

:up:
- Since I've filtered all factions out of the diplo screen (because it can potentially become very populated), you can't declare war on the Human Rebels in Corinth... so you cannot subjugate it.
Not sure what to do about this...
- display all factions (rebels and subjugated colonies of other empires) in the diplo screen, risking making it really cluttered
OR
- make all factions work like being part of the parent empire (for diplo purposes)
:?:
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Spocks-cuddly-tribble
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Iceman wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:22 am- make all factions work like being part of the parent empire (for diplo purposes)
So you'd have to declare war on yourself to reconquer native rebel systems...

Btw, in BotF rebel systems can be attacked without war declaration. Not elegant, but simple for diplomatic listings. :wink:

And a big thumbs up for the nice progress with supremacy. :up:
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:40 pm
Iceman wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:22 am- make all factions work like being part of the parent empire (for diplo purposes)
So you'd have to declare war on yourself to reconquer native rebel systems...
That's precisely what I meant. You wouldn't need to declare war on the faction if you were already at war with the parent empire.
The particular case of your own rebels could be handled by an exception - liberating the colony.

Btw, in BotF rebel systems can be attacked without war declaration. Not elegant, but simple for diplomatic listings. :wink:
Yep, can't get simpler than that :wink:

And a big thumbs up for the nice progress with supremacy. :up:
Thanks! You've been very busy too :up:
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geordie
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by geordie »

Not sure what to do about this...
- display all factions (rebels and subjugated colonies of other empires) in the diplo screen, risking making it really cluttered
- make all factions work like being part of the parent empire (for diplo purposes)
I would propose to treat given rebelled system like a new minor race, but only one new 'race' for given empire. Such 'minor' would be treated like every minor race. I believe it would save some new coding.
If another colony rebels they will join existing rebelled 'minor' and create multi-system 'minor', of course without ability to colonize any other system.
If subjugated system rebels, it joins first: parent empire (if still exists), second: existing rebelled faction, third: creates new faction (as 'minor' race) - but to revive the empire is also an option.

All diplomacy would work without any changes, including membership, but with one exception: a rebelled colony could not become a member of parent empire, but instead of that, in the end of the membership process, would be fully incorporated as non-rebelled system. I suppose such situation in game practice would be very rare.

The last question would be about subjugated systems and rebelled systems existing as parts of the same empire. Probably simply to allow that.
Last edited by geordie on Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Iceman
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

geordie wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:30 am I would propose to treat given rebelled system like a new minor race, but only one new 'race' for given empire. Such 'minor' would be treated like every minor race. I believe it would save some new coding.
If another colony rebels they will join existing rebelled 'minor' and create multi-system 'minor', of course without ability to colonize any other system.
If subjugated system rebels, it joins first: parent empire (if still exists), second: existing rebelled faction, third: creates new faction (as 'minor' race) - but to revive the empire is also an option.
That's (almost) exactly how they work. :wink:
Except...

All diplomacy would work without any changes, including membership, but with one exception: a rebelled colony could not become a member of parent empire, but instead of that, in the end of the membership process, would be fully incorporated as non-rebelled system. I suppose such situation in game practice would be very rare.
... factions cannot be offered membership. Or anything else right now, as I have disabled contact with them in the diplomacy screen.

The last question would be about subjugated systems and rebelled systems existing as parts of the same empire. Probably simply to allow that.
It was only one question, with 2 alternatives. Sorry, I should have been more clear! :oops:
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:40 pm So you'd have to declare war on yourself to reconquer native rebel systems...
I'll have to check, but when a colony rebels, the rebel faction that is created is at war with the parent empire, so this is a moot point.


Actually, me and erazortt were discussing this a while ago. We felt that Regard should be lowered for both sides in any case; about a state of war, we ended up with some questions:
- Should war be declared formally by the civ that lost the colony :?:
- Should we only set them to be At War but without a formal DoW :?:
- Should the DoW depend on the Trait of the civ that lost the colony :?: (Like the Klingons would probably declare war, but the Feds wouldn’t)
- Should it also depend on which type of civ the native pop is - minor race vs empire? And if it was a member or subjugated colony?

(The question about a formal DoW relates to a potential global Morale modifier that might apply - which in such cases should not, I think.)

What do you guys think about this?
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Spocks-cuddly-tribble
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Iceman wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:48 pmthis is a moot point.
Needless to say it's not an issue. Just a silly, pedantic joke making fun of this special case, given the base logic behind the proposed option. :wink:

In BotF imperial rebels don't have any diplomatic and/or regard data (semi-implemented/unfinished feature). Even minor race's diplomacy was broken after a rebellion before we fixed the bug.
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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geordie
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by geordie »

I would suggest to follow the reason how the rebelled system became a part of the empire.
Any subjugation is an effect of war so the empire and previously subjugated rebelled system should be at war. Of course if a parent empire exists, then the rebelled system belongs again to that empire with no change of mutual diplomatic status between empires.
In fact in case of minor race members it is not a rebellion but a braking of membership treaty, so the parties should not be at war. I propose a significant (like 500 or more) drop of the regard, so a formal DoW could happen in coming turns.
I do not think that a special treatment of Feds is needed. If bigoted Feds subjugated any system (especially minor race), so why to make a difference. Without that a parameter like who declared that war would be needed.
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Factions

Post by Iceman »

I'm starting this thread so we can discuss how to handle factions (diplomatically).
I'll move the posts about this topic in the new release thread here so we can have a "cleaner" dedicated thread.

There are 2 types of factions in the game.

Rebel factions: those created when one of your native colonies triggers a rebellion and becomes an independent "civ". Any other rebellious native colonies will join this faction, so there's only one (Human, Klingon, ...) Rebel Union per game (max total of 5 currently).

Minority factions: subjugated colonies whose native population is from another empire. There may be multiple of these per empire, The Romulan Minority in the Klingon Empire, The Human Minority in the Klingon Empire, etc.


Rebellions may be triggered when morale in a colony is low, and can be prevented by having a large enough garrison (half+ current pop in the colony) or a combat station (OP or SB) in the sector.

A member minor race that rebels goes back to being an independent civ.
A subjugated colony of another empire that rebels will rejoin its parent empire if that empire has not been eliminated; if the empire doesn't exist anymore, the colony will not rebel.


I'll finish this post later as I want the information to be as accurate as possible.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Iceman wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:22 am - Since I've filtered all factions out of the diplo screen (because it can potentially become very populated), you can't declare war on the Human Rebels in Corinth... so you cannot subjugate it.

Actually, this was not true. I had filtered out all factions from the Overview view, but only the minority factions from the contacted civs list. So it is possible to DoW on rebel factions.
I've now made the Overview view match the contacted civs list.

So,
geordie wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:56 am I suggest to leave that in the game, but maybe to limit relations to open borders only.
Done.

geordie wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:30 am All diplomacy would work without any changes, including membership, but with one exception: a rebelled colony could not become a member of parent empire, but instead of that, in the end of the membership process, would be fully incorporated as non-rebelled system. I suppose such situation in game practice would be very rare.
... factions cannot be offered membership. Or anything else right now, as I have disabled contact with them in the diplomacy screen.
Since what I said was not true, and upon re-reading your suggestion, I think it sounds good.

BUT, should we only allow this process to happen for the parent empire? Affiliation and Membership?
If not, what happens if another empire gets an Affiliation treaty with the rebels?
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