Supremacy new release

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geordie
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by geordie »

Hi, first some overdue answers:
Which fleet cap ?
I meant number of command points related to outposts and star bases to maintain larger fleets. Some time ago it was a slight challenge, now I don't feel any influence or limit of that.

First agent - could appear earlier as turn 120 (in huge galaxy), I suppose 90-100, because some diplomatic contacts should have been already made.

Minor races research pace - I would recommend quicker pace for members, they quite often have nothing to build. Subjugated races shouldn't develop too quickly. so the pace is OK.

Automatic repairs could be still maintained for research ships - it is a part of their role to get damages.

I have found a small bug - the population is counted improperly after an asteroid or comet hit. Some destroyed moons are still added.
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In above situation the system max population is 55, not 60.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by geordie »

I tried a Borg game, but only a couple of turns.
It really looks sounds that the sound is significantly improved and OK for me now. Unfortunately, I found some sound problems in my last non-Borg game. Quite often the recorded texts are cut before end by next ones.

I got also one error in Feb21 Borg game.
Error 20210308.txt
(3.01 KiB) Downloaded 71 times
And one question - what the following message means for the Borg?
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by geordie »

It looks that I cannot progress after last error. The next turn cannot be completed:
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SP Borg Huge Irregular 16.zip
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

geordie wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:44 pm Hi, first some overdue answers:
Which fleet cap ?
I meant number of command points related to outposts and star bases to maintain larger fleets. Some time ago it was a slight challenge, now I don't feel any influence or limit of that.
That's in MoO2, not Supremacy :wink: There is no fleet cap, your total population allows not paying fleet maintenance up to a certain amount (Population Fleet Support). You can check those values if you hover over the Credits Per Turn value in the Empire Info expander.
There haven' been any changes in that part of the game. :???:
Going back to that observation:
Is the fleet cap still working? For long time I do not see a reason to build star bases. In fact mainly because it lasts so long for single construction ship.
Well, recently I removed automatic repairs - except: the Borg will repair anywhere, and everyone else will only repair in their own starbases, or affiliated+ shipyards and starbases.
So starbases do have some token use :wink:


First agent - could appear earlier as turn 120 (in huge galaxy), I suppose 90-100, because some diplomatic contacts should have been already made.
Ok, will look into that. :up:

Minor races research pace - I would recommend quicker pace for members, they quite often have nothing to build. Subjugated races shouldn't develop too quickly. so the pace is OK.
:up:

Automatic repairs could be still maintained for research ships - it is a part of their role to get damages.
But that creates an exception. :neutral:

I have found a small bug - the population is counted improperly after an asteroid or comet hit. Some destroyed moons are still added.

In above situation the system max population is 55, not 60.
You mean that moons from destroyed planets are still counted? Will check, thx!
Did this happen to you for Asteroid Impact events too? Or just for Comet Strike events? In Comet Strike, the planet is destroyed, so this issue might happen, yes, but in Asteroid Impact, the planet is not destroyed... :???:
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

geordie wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:08 pm I tried a Borg game, but only a couple of turns.
It really looks sounds that the sound is significantly improved and OK for me now.
:up:

Unfortunately, I found some sound problems in my last non-Borg game. Quite often the recorded texts are cut before end by next ones.
The problem is just that the soundfx overlaps the previous one, when more than one is played, correct? Those soundfx, when played separately, sound ok, right?

I got also one error in Feb21 Borg game.
Error 20210308.txt
I got that one some time ago too... Not sure what causes it.

And one question - what the following message means for the Borg?
It means that you have built more ships than your Population Fleet Support can handle, and so all your production is suspended. This happens for all other civs too, when their treasury is negative, but since the Borg do not have a treasury, their fleet size is capped to a maintenance equal to or lower than their Population Fleet Support; you can check these values in the tooltip of the value for Credits Last Turn, like mentioned above. This must be made clear somewhere at some point.

It looks that I cannot progress after last error. The next turn cannot be completed:
I'll check that, thanks.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

New patches. Yes, 2 of them this time.

Fixed the randomizer in the Domestic Terrorism event, and capped the number of destroyed facilities at 4.
Removed the extra delay in the recruitment of the 1st agent for Large and Huge galaxies.
Tried to fix the non-destroyed moons in the Comet Strike event - please check.
More AI tweaks.
Automatic repairs (now only in starbases) also cost duranium, added SitRep for resource shortage during repairs.
Buildings with resource costs (-Deuterium, -Dilithium, etc) now deducting them - there is an issue with duplication of those costs that still needs to be fixed.
Tweaks to starting resources and structures.

The error and the infinite loop geordie has mentioned have not been addressed yet.
No changes to member minor research yet.


Now, to the issue of why 2 patches.

10mar_newAI.zip continues the path of previous patches, with erazortt's fleet management AI, and the above fixes/tweaks.

EXPERIMENTAL_AI.ZIP is the same patch BUT adding CaptScarff's shipbuilding management AI (though part of it has already been included in the previous patches). It is not yet finished, and I've already detected at least a couple of improvements to be made.
We're providing it as a separate patch because it should break savegame compatibility, and there's a lot of logging so the progress of each empire can be followed - I've cut it down to the essentials actually, so that it makes it less of a burden to test. If someone is willing to try this patch and provide feedback, that'd be great. Maybe we should create a specific thread for it?
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

geordie wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:44 pm Minor races research pace - I would recommend quicker pace for members, they quite often have nothing to build. Subjugated races shouldn't develop too quickly. so the pace is OK.
If you havw a chance, could you test this in a Medium galaxy too, please?

The reason for the request is, Large and Huge galaxies have a penalty to research output (0.85 and 0.75 respectively) - just wondering if removing the penalty would make members advancement ok (though it will increase global research rate).

OR, edit the file
\Tables\GameOptionTables.txt
and change those modifiers in the ResearchRate table (2nd table from the top): change Large/Huge to 1.0 or remove it completely (should fallback to 1.0).
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by geordie »

I found a save just 1 turn before the comet strike, but I cannot repeat that in next turn. A save from the comet strike turn shows still the same, too high population limit.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by geordie »

Hi,
I tried to play Medium galaxy Experimental patch, but something was wrong with the terrorist events - I got 4 events between 50 and 75 turns, in addition I got 50 credits penalty and a destruction of 4 building in the same system just after 2 turns. I had enough security in the Sol system, so the first two events were safe, but they also happened in 2-3 turns.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

I found a save just 1 turn before the comet strike, but I cannot repeat that in next turn.
Yes, scripted events are not pre-rolled.

A save from the comet strike turn shows still the same, too high population limit.
Yes, the fix should only take effect when the event actually happens, it has no effect on events already resolved.

I tried to play Medium galaxy Experimental patch, but something was wrong with the terrorist events - I got 4 events between 50 and 75 turns, in addition I got 50 credits penalty and a destruction of 4 building in the same system just after 2 turns. I had enough security in the Sol system, so the first two events were safe, but they also happened in 2-3 turns.
One of the causes for this is that those are 2 separate events - Commercial Terrorism (credits) and Domestic Terrorism (structures). They both can start at turn 50, and they both can happen in 10 turn intervals. So it's possible that you can get both in the same system within a few turns of each other, yes. It's in my ToDo list to merge the 2 events into a single event, to prevent this from happening.
From your description, what I could understand was that you had this (both [different] events in a single system, a few turns apart) happen in *two* different systems (so 2 systems x 2 events), and Sol managed to forfeit both but the other system did not. Is that correct?
The other system must have had really low security? 50 credits and 4 structures (which is now the max) ? Maybe it had really low Morale?

I'll try to check it anyway, there might be something wrong that I'm not seeing. Thanks!

I'll try to work on merging those events asap.
You can edit the \Data\ScriptedEvents.xaml file and change those values, BTW.

Code: Select all

      <x:Int32 x:Key="CivilizationRecurrencePeriod">10</x:Int32>
      <x:Int32 x:Key="UnitRecurrencePeriod">10</x:Int32>
      <x:Int32 x:Key="OccurrenceChance">50</x:Int32>
      <x:Int32 x:Key="NoOccurrencePeriod">50</x:Int32>
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Uploaded an update to the EXPERIMENTAL_AI patch, with some AI improvements - it should handle resources a bit better, making it more competitive.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Lex »

Hello everyone,

I haven't read the previous 97 pages because, well, 97 pages, so I may be about to retread old ground, so my apologies.
I've been checking and re-checking over the years on this project and I thought it to be dead, imagine my surprise when I saw there was a new update, obviously I was super excited - I'm just going to give my findings and/or opinions from the number of hours I played so far.

1. I love a number of the quality of life improvements that've been made, simple things like the ability to use waypoints and just the map scrolling being far friendlier usually
2. I'm a fan mostly of the new planetary assualt system, however I do find that the processing time is far too long, you sort of just wait for the sound effect to go off and it reminds me of when I used to play the original on a P133 and I'd leave to do something in between turns, hyperbole obviously, but you get the idea
3. I'm not sure if you're intending on implementing a space combat system similar to the original or not, but I will say that for me, that was pretty much the best part of the game, I know some people whined about different ship movements not making a difference and you could just click anything, but I have hundreds of hours of different fights in that game that conclusively prove that wrong, you could genuinely turn the tides of entire wars in that combat system - the space combat made the game
4. I like the new resources for building ships, original was a bit broken and ECM way over corrected, this feels like a good balance to me
5. I don't know if it's fixable, but for me, everything delays for just a split second before an action is carried out and some times it just seems to freeze and break when you're trying to select or deselect a ship before eventually working again, not game breaking, but can get annoying after a long period of time
6. The new way shipyards work is nice, I like that upgrading adds more shipyards and the ability to build numerous ships at one system, however it would be nice if there was some sort of queue system for them as well so there's a little less micromanaging
7. Build queues are much better in general, being able to build ships separately from the build queue, being able to complete multiple buildings at once and having a much longer build queue, all things that are really helpful
8. When I played as the Cardassians I could go to a system summary by clicking on the center of the context menu after right clicking, but as the Romulans I couldn't, I also found the summary just a little too noisy, I'm not exactly sure how, but grouping/simplifying that section would be helpful - I found the one in the original was pretty easy to follow
9. The Borg are broken as hell - I played two games, one where I was steamrolling half the galaxy as the Cardassians and the Borg just showed up with a mixed fleet of spheres, diamonds, cubes and tactical cubes with about 8 ships total and just instantly annihilated the fleet I'd spent 400 turns building. My other game they showed up on turn 70 when I had 4 Destroyer I's and 2 Cruiser I's and assimilated Romulus - I know they're the Borg, I get that's how powerful they are, but it's a game, I don't want to play it if I have no hope of winning
10. Fleets larger than 9, we all knew had to happen, hallelujah, praise be the mighty Q
11. I love that you can build minor race ships, that was always something I wanted to do in the original, however, I don't quite know why I can only build troop transports at some systems - if you're going to separate out construction ships and troop transports (which I'm all for) you have to make them buildable everywhere, or at least have some easy and understandable explanations for why they can't be built so you can plan better.
12. Envoys are nice, it's a little more interesting than just throwing money at a minor race until they love you, although I did still love doing that, lol.
13. Will there be an automatic build queue introduced like there was in the original? - when you start to get a large amount of systems it starts to get pretty hard to keep rifling through every so many turns and adding new things to so many build queues, I always started with manual and stuck with it for any important systems, but the crappy 80 pop ones that I stole from the enemy, it was just not worth my time to manually control

I know I had other thoughts while I was playing, but these are the ones I could remember off the top of my head, I hope that's useful in some way, if not, ah well, sorry for the long read, lol

TLDR:
There's a lot of things done well and a number of things that still need work in my opinion, I hope this project finds a good completion eventually, great work so far
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Hi Lex. I'm glad you decided to join the forums and post about the game!
Feedback is always welcome, and don't worry about retreading old ground, 97 pages is way to much to read, yes :wink:
Nope, the project was never dead. We're still churning out patches and builds, as time permits. Sometimes things go slower due to RL constraints, but we'll keep at it as long as there's interest in the game.
I'll try to address some of your points.


Lex wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:45 am 2. I'm a fan mostly of the new planetary assualt system, however I do find that the processing time is far too long, you sort of just wait for the sound effect to go off and it reminds me of when I used to play the original on a P133 and I'd leave to do something in between turns, hyperbole obviously, but you get the idea
I hear you. That's why there is an option in Settings, in the Main Menu, to disable all soundfx in the planetary assault screen :wink:
I was suffering from the same problem and decided to add that, quite some time ago. There's also a file in the \Data folder where you eventually will be able to set the durations and other stuff for those sfx - but I haven't managed to get the game to read that file properly yet, so it's on standby (low priority as there's another way to get around this as mentioned above).

3. I'm not sure if you're intending on implementing a space combat system similar to the original or not, but I will say that for me, that was pretty much the best part of the game, I know some people whined about different ship movements not making a difference and you could just click anything, but I have hundreds of hours of different fights in that game that conclusively prove that wrong, you could genuinely turn the tides of entire wars in that combat system - the space combat made the game
The plan is to have such a space combat screen, yes. That part is on hold for now, but not forgotten! It's not going to be easy, but some discussion has already been made on the topic. We're mostly working on the AI now, but we'll get there.

4. I like the new resources for building ships, original was a bit broken and ECM way over corrected, this feels like a good balance to me
:up: It still needs some balance passes; we're addressing issues as they come up. Feedback is very important so that we can get it to be interesting/balanced - neither too easy/irrelevant, nor too hard/frustrating.

5. I don't know if it's fixable, but for me, everything delays for just a split second before an action is carried out and some times it just seems to freeze and break when you're trying to select or deselect a ship before eventually working again, not game breaking, but can get annoying after a long period of time
Can you be more specific, like in which screen(s), and if there's a specific action?

6. The new way shipyards work is nice, I like that upgrading adds more shipyards and the ability to build numerous ships at one system, however it would be nice if there was some sort of queue system for them as well so there's a little less micromanaging
Yea, that's in the ToDo list. We just need to implement the UI for it, the AI uses the queue already.

8. When I played as the Cardassians I could go to a system summary by clicking on the center of the context menu after right clicking, but as the Romulans I couldn't, I also found the summary just a little too noisy, I'm not exactly sure how, but grouping/simplifying that section would be helpful - I found the one in the original was pretty easy to follow
Unfortunately, we do not have context menus for all the civs yet. The only final versions are the Borg, the Klingons and the Cardassians. All the other civs still use the old Federation menu, which needs to be re-done. You wouldn't happen to be, or know someone that is, a talented artist, now would you? :grin: We really need those done.
BTW, for the civs with the old menu, the Intel screen in only accessible through the hotkey (F6 in this case). Intelligence is not yet implemented though.

9. The Borg are broken as hell - I played two games, one where I was steamrolling half the galaxy as the Cardassians and the Borg just showed up with a mixed fleet of spheres, diamonds, cubes and tactical cubes with about 8 ships total and just instantly annihilated the fleet I'd spent 400 turns building. My other game they showed up on turn 70 when I had 4 Destroyer I's and 2 Cruiser I's and assimilated Romulus - I know they're the Borg, I get that's how powerful they are, but it's a game, I don't want to play it if I have no hope of winning
Heh, the Borg do still need some work. And they should only be played/included in a game with some restrictions in place. Initially they were supposed to be just an event like in the original BotF; but then they evolved to a civ that you can play as, if you so choose. That balance is extremely difficult to reach, if not impossible. Making them an interesting playable civ is another serious challenge, if they're to feel anything like THE BORG (as opposed to a regular civ).

Them showing on turn 70 is odd. Someone must have "woken them up" from their (forced) stasis; you were probably playing a Small or Medium map? An AI empire probably bumped into them when exploring.
They're really only "viable" if/when playing Large+ maps, and probably with Fast research rate and/or Advanced+ starting level. Starting facilities at Best might also help a bit.
BTW, you can disable the spawning of the Borg by setting Special Events to No in the SP start screen.

11. I love that you can build minor race ships, that was always something I wanted to do in the original, however, I don't quite know why I can only build troop transports at some systems - if you're going to separate out construction ships and troop transports (which I'm all for) you have to make them buildable everywhere, or at least have some easy and understandable explanations for why they can't be built so you can plan better.
Troop Transports - your own designs - can only be built in your native colonies, as they load troops from that colony's Garrison. If there's no Garrison left/available, you cannot build TTs until it regenerates. Some minor races have a TT design, which you can only build in their homesystem, again if enough Garrison is available.
Notice that a similar thing happens with colony ships, you can only build them in native colonies, and a minimum population is required (though this is usually not a factor).

12. Envoys are nice, it's a little more interesting than just throwing money at a minor race until they love you, although I did still love doing that, lol.
:up: We still need to implement the other assignments: Officers for fleets and Operatives for covert missions.

13. Will there be an automatic build queue introduced like there was in the original? - when you start to get a large amount of systems it starts to get pretty hard to keep rifling through every so many turns and adding new things to so many build queues, I always started with manual and stuck with it for any important systems, but the crappy 80 pop ones that I stole from the enemy, it was just not worth my time to manually control
Yes, governors are also in the ToDo list.

I know I had other thoughts while I was playing, but these are the ones I could remember off the top of my head, I hope that's useful in some way, if not, ah well, sorry for the long read, lol
:mrgreen:
Thanks for the long read, feedback is always helpful. Whatever else you remember or find during a game, please do post about it!

TLDR:
There's a lot of things done well and a number of things that still need work in my opinion, I hope this project finds a good completion eventually, great work so far
:up: Hope you had fun so far, and keep having. And thanks again for taking the time to post your observations. I hope you keep posting, that's a good sign.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Lex »

I've never really used a forum, so I don't know how to do the quotes, haha, but I'm hoping you'll find it anyways.

Oh is there, that's helpful then, I'll have to find and set that option, it'll be nice when that's fully ironed out, I certainly understand why it's a lower priority though.

Good to hear, I was hopeful that was the case, it was genuinely one of my favourite parts - also as a side note, I know a few mods for the game changed how all the combat/tactics worked and it did end up just being all irrelevant and the person with the stronger ships just won every time, I know it can't be easy, but there was so much nuance in the original system and I hope you're able to capture that when you're able to focus on that properly.

I'll pay some closer attention to it next time I play, but you're already off to a good start with the balance in my opinion

So, more specifically the main thing is when I add something to a build queue in a system, I often alternate between structures (industry, farms, industry, etc.) and each addition requires another double click - with each double click, there's just that extra split second thinking (or at least perceived thinking) time that happens before you see the result of it.
Also another time it seems to happen a lot is when you're trying to select ships or more so, deselect ships, it sometimes locks up a bit and I have to try left click, right click, esc button until one of them works and I have control back again - another very minor thing is that I've found I often can't scroll the map using the arrow keys while a fleet of ships is selected, I deselect (with the sector still selected) and then reselect the ships, then tell them to move and it gets around the issue, but it does catch me a few times.

Great, at least the framework is there already.

I was wondering about that, there being a few areas missing artwork and how much of a colossal task that would have been to undertake, most of it looks pretty legit so far though from what's already in - unfortunately I don't really know of anyone, I'm semi-decent at photoshop, and I can write a mean folk/pop song, but I'm not really any good at making art unfortunately.
That makes sense, I thought it looked Federation when I was Romulan, haha.

I can't seem to choose them as a Civ in my version, I did want to try them when they wiped me out so easily, I may have accidentally downloaded/installed a few things incorrectly perhaps?
I can certainly understand the struggle, it's a very fine balance and I think my previous message came off snappier than I'd intended, you want them to still be the Borg, but interesting and not broken to play - on another side note, I'm not sure if you ever played Star Trek: Armada (the first one) but that game had a similar dilemma with having them as a playable race, they ended up opting for a greater focus on balance by making them decidedly weaker than they really would have been and by making their ships a bit slower and more expensive to build, but personally I think for the playability of the game itself it certainly was the right choice in that instance, I loved that game and I'd still play it if it'd run on modern machines, I know that people no doubt squabbled over "um aaccctually, a single Borg cube was able to defeat an entire combined Federation fleet at Wolf 359, so this is unrealistic" but the game would have been unplayable if they made everything accurate to the canon - it's a tough and delicate balance and I don't envy your task, I think inevitably that's exactly why original BOTF made them (and things like the Gomtuu, the Calamarain, the crystal entity, etc) random events instead of playable, but hey, if you can get it right, it could be one of the best additions to the game full stop.
Ah, so it's like Stellaris with the fallen empires, that makes sense, although not really one of the features I liked in Stellaris, good to know you can turn it off, although I'd very much like to be able to play a game with them in and still be able to win, so again, I hope you can get that balance right, haha.

I figured that may have been the case with the native systems, but I must have also been out of garrisons in the other cases, is there a way to maybe train more troops by using population or something? probably not necessary, I just know Endless Space 2 does that and that's a fantastic game as well.
Actually I did realise that as well with a minor race I had, the Tellerites, however, after building their freighters and reading their descriptions I thought I could use them as TT's, but they didn't show up in the planetary assualt screen as attack ships or as TT's, not sure if that was just a bug or if I did something wrong.

Oh nice, I thought there may have been room for stuff like that, will be good to see how that pans out.

Perfect, sounds again like Stellaris or Endless Space 2, better than just automatic because in theory you can choose to make them specialise more in a certain field, which would be really handy.

I'm glad this was helpful rather than annoying, haha, I'll give it another play now that I know I can turn the Borg off and skip sound effects in the planetary assualt screen, that'll make a huge difference, I'll let you know if I find anything else/have any ideas that might help - the original BOTF was my childhood, and my dad and I played it all the time, the main reason we stopped was just because it was so unstable, so I'm really excited for this project if it can capture even half of that magic and be stable and playable on a modern machine, keep up the great work!
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by rkdtwo »

in the new update i was having some delays after i hit turn sometimes taking 5-10 seconds for the turn to process. tried it on medium, large and huge galaxy sizes but maybe if i turn off the sound effects it might speed up. "Lex I can't seem to choose them as a Civ in my version, I did want to try them when they wiped me out so easily, I may have accidentally downloaded/installed a few things incorrectly perhaps?"

To load the borg in the playable you have to go under settings and there is a check box to make them playable.
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