Supremacy new release

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

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geordie
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by geordie »

My remarks were caused by a feeling that one system is not able to sustain 15 cruisers (even mark 1 ones) financially. So I agree that it is odd.
I fought against almost 30 Kazon riders, but I had to wait to construct a fleet of 20 cruisers and destroyers first to conquer the system. They were hostile so a diplomacy was a waste of time and resources. And Kazons were still building new raiders.
So maybe a common financing limit would be the most natural for minors as well.

I had to scrap such fleet once to avoid financial problems (a deep debt) after acquiring new minor member. Even if it was in a local system, because my surplus depot was too far, it was a significant boost of resources and money.
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Silverbreaker
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Silverbreaker »

it would be amazing if someone could combine Flockes MPR++ v0.2.6c with your game
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Silverbreaker wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:05 am it would be amazing if someone could combine Flockes MPR++ v0.2.6c with your game
Yes, it would. We just need someone willing to do it :wink: Or adapting BotE's combat engine, or creating a new one from scratch.
erazortt was looking into it a few months ago, but that project got sidelined at the time because the AI was more important.
If you know someone that can tackle that huge endeavour, please send them our way!
We also need to replace a bunch of the ship models.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

geordie wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:32 am My remarks were caused by a feeling that one system is not able to sustain 15 cruisers (even mark 1 ones) financially. So I agree that it is odd.

I fought against almost 30 Kazon riders, but I had to wait to construct a fleet of 20 cruisers and destroyers first to conquer the system. They were hostile so a diplomacy was a waste of time and resources. And Kazons were still building new raiders.
So maybe a common financing limit would be the most natural for minors as well.
Minor races have 2 issues right now (regarding this topic).
They don't check their treasury and pop support (like empires do) when building ships.
IIRC they only check ships in their homesystem - Warlike and Raider minors can have fleets out on missions, so they can overbuild ships.
I'll try to address these issues now that the patch is out.

I had to scrap such fleet once to avoid financial problems (a deep debt) after acquiring new minor member. Even if it was in a local system, because my surplus depot was too far, it was a significant boost of resources and money.
I once thought about making the minor's current hardware affect the effect of bribes/gifts, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort- might make them too hard to member.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:10 am
Iceman wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:48 pmImpossible, which increases those limits - by 2.5x
Dunno how this affects Supremacy, but in BotF difficulty level vs. minor races vs. low empire starting levels was always double edged.
Difficulty level affects max number of ships, and makes those ships be spawned with a certain XP level (at Impossible they're Elite).
Starting civ level will only change anything if the minor has higher level tier(s) of its designs.

Fighting/conquering such relatively overpowered minors was too hard (especially for AI). At the same time membering them brought too much of an advantage (especially with an overpowered fleet on top and if close to another empire, with no means to counter this sudden power increase).
Like mentioned above, one option in Supremacy is to make the effect of gifts be affected by their fleet size/power, which might make them too hard to member; then again, it might be one more balancing factor for membership vs subjugation - subjugation might actually be faster / less costly in these cases.

Not mentioning the unholy possibility to scrap their ships 1:1 for credits to get all gifts back with profit.... :mad:
Heh, in Supremacy, if your Supply Depot is close enough, you can do that too.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

geordie wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:32 am And Kazons were still building new raiders.
So maybe a common financing limit would be the most natural for minors as well.
Just a remark to complement what I already mentioned. Do notice that minors play by the same rules as empires; if they go bankrupt, their production (including ships) will stop. So it's not like they're cheating.
If the Kazon were still pumping out Raiders, it's because they have money (and resources). It might eventually lead them to bankrupcy, but they'll have the ships by then :wink:
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Sounds as if you're replicating parts of the BotF difficulty level bias (minor race strenght+, bad random events+, intel attack frequency-). It doesn't make the game harder (all empires, even AIs, can/have to deal with chances/obstacles) just more unfair/random depending on minor races map placement vs. the empire values/features.

Effect in vanilla BotF (low tech start T1 / many minors / impossible):

- Single player = easier (provided one knows the game mechanics)
- Multiplayer = unplayable/unfair


Strengthening minors via difficulty level doesn't make any sense, unless you:

- prevent any possibility to exploit this extra strength
- insert AI empire cheats to compensate this extra strength
- somehow eliminate the extra randomness in multiplayer

That's why I removed any influence of difficulty level to minor races in ECM (average starting levels of empires works fine instead). :wink:
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:18 pm It doesn't make the game harder (all empires, even AIs, can/have to deal with chances/obstacles) just more unfair/random depending on minor races map placement vs. the empire values/features.
So what you're saying is that there's no point in having difficulty levels in games where there are opponents (whether human or AI)?
What would you suggest DL should affect?
Notice I'm not saying I agree with you :wink:

- prevent any possibility to exploit this extra strength
I'd say you would have to have all minor races have no ships to achieve this.

- insert AI empire cheats to compensate this extra strength
Which would make it easier for the AI empires that had easier starting positions.

- somehow eliminate the extra randomness in multiplayer
Which you can do by setting Minor Races to None.

That's why I removed any influence of difficulty level to minor races in ECM (average starting levels of empires works fine instead). :wink:
Doesn't that benefit the empires that start at a higher civ level (if different levels are selected)?

Doesn't that make the game "easier" at lower civ levels starts? By the time you get to TL3 in a TL1 game, minor races will be less powerful than in a TL3 game? Or am I misunderstanding what you meant (it's late, my brain needs rest)?
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

geordie wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:32 am My remarks were caused by a feeling that one system is not able to sustain 15 cruisers (even mark 1 ones) financially.
Well, the problem is it might not even be able to sustain a single cruiser or even a destroyer - small systems like the Bynars', for instance.
So we might need to have a cheat for minor races. I can think of the following alternatives:
  • large amount of starting credits (in all starting levels)
  • not pay fleet maintenance
  • artificially increase their fleet population support, by setting a minimum value (depending on type of minor)
I'd like to hear opinions, and other suggestions.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Found and fixed an issue that was preventing the AI from attacking enemy stations sometimes. Next patch should be a bit more challenging.

Is there anyone out there that can write a proper text for the SitRep? :oops:
Attachments
station.png
station.png (177.88 KiB) Viewed 426 times
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McFly
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by McFly »

hi, I have an error that I cannot find

error log : Mindestens ein Fehler ist aufgetreten.

bei Supremacy.Game.GameEngine.DoShipProduction(GameContext game) in C:\Projects\Supremacy\Mainline\SupremacyCore\Game\GameEngine.cs:Zeile 2609.
bei Supremacy.Game.GameEngine.DoTurn(GameContext game) in C:\Projects\Supremacy\Mainline\SupremacyCore\Game\GameEngine.cs:Zeile 331.
bei Supremacy.WCF.SupremacyService.<>c__DisplayClass53_0.<DoTurnCore>b__0() in C:\Projects\Supremacy\Mainline\SupremacyService\SupremacyService.cs:Zeile 638.
bei System.Linq.Observable.<>c__DisplayClass130.<>c__DisplayClass132.<ToAsync>b__12f()
--- Ende der Stapelüberwachung vom vorhergehenden Ort, an dem die Ausnahme ausgelöst wurde ---
bei System.Runtime.CompilerServices.TaskAwaiter.ThrowForNonSuccess(Task task)
bei System.Runtime.CompilerServices.TaskAwaiter.HandleNonSuccessAndDebuggerNotification(Task task)
bei System.Runtime.CompilerServices.TaskAwaiter`1.GetResult()
bei Supremacy.WCF.SupremacyService.<DoTurnCore>d__53.MoveNext() in C:\Projects\Supremacy\Mainline\SupremacyService\SupremacyService.cs:Zeile 641.
--- Ende der Stapelüberwachung vom vorhergehenden Ort, an dem die Ausnahme ausgelöst wurde ---
bei System.Runtime.CompilerServices.TaskAwaiter.ThrowForNonSuccess(Task task)
bei System.Runtime.CompilerServices.TaskAwaiter.HandleNonSuccessAndDebuggerNotification(Task task)
bei System.Runtime.CompilerServices.ConfiguredTaskAwaitable.ConfiguredTaskAwaiter.GetResult()
bei Supremacy.WCF.SupremacyService.<ProcessTurn>d__52.MoveNext() in C:\Projects\Supremacy\Mainline\SupremacyService\SupremacyService.cs:Zeile 523.
--- Ende der Stapelüberwachung vom vorhergehenden Ort, an dem die Ausnahme ausgelöst wurde ---
bei System.Runtime.CompilerServices.AsyncMethodBuilderCore.<>c.<ThrowAsync>b__6_1(Object state)
bei System.Threading.QueueUserWorkItemCallback.WaitCallback_Context(Object state)
bei System.Threading.ExecutionContext.RunInternal(ExecutionContext executionContext, ContextCallback callback, Object state, Boolean preserveSyncCtx)
bei System.Threading.ExecutionContext.Run(ExecutionContext executionContext, ContextCallback callback, Object state, Boolean preserveSyncCtx)
bei System.Threading.QueueUserWorkItemCallback.System.Threading.IThreadPoolWorkItem.ExecuteWorkItem()
bei System.Threading.ThreadPoolWorkQueue.Dispatch()
bei System.Threading._ThreadPoolWaitCallback.PerformWaitCallback()

----------------------------------------

Der Objektverweis wurde nicht auf eine Objektinstanz festgelegt.

bei Supremacy.Game.GameEngine.<>c__DisplayClass42_0.<DoShipProduction>b__0(Civilization civ) in C:\Projects\Supremacy\Mainline\SupremacyCore\Game\GameEngine.cs:Zeile 2507.

----------------------------------------

pls help
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Hi McFly. Do you have a savegame where I can reproduce the crash? If so, could you please attach it here? Thx!
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McFly
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by McFly »

yes i have, how can i attach the savegame? now have 2 memory stands with the same problem.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by McFly »

ok, both found the same problem

thx
Attachments
Dom failure.sav
(835.86 KiB) Downloaded 7 times
Dom.sav
(799.73 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

Thanks, found the problem. There's still a few issues related to ship repair, I've fixed a couple for the next patch, and will fix this one too.
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