Playing as the Borg
Moderators: thunderchero, Iceman
Re: Playing as the Borg
Destroy. Like in TNG. The colony, people and ships were just ripped from the planet leaving a gaping hole. It make take a few turn to clean out a system but only a turn to clean out a new colony.
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thunderchero
- Site Administrator aka Fleet Admiral
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Re: Playing as the Borg
In first contact movie the borg did "occupy" earth.
Re: Playing as the Borg
True, but I would still set it up as early TNG where they ripped colonies off the face of a planet.
Or
as on Enterprise where the took over the ship and changed it.
Or
as on Enterprise where the took over the ship and changed it.
Re: Playing as the Borg
We need to find a way to show the amount of drones in a fleet. Any suggestions?Yes, there is a problem with conveying that information - though I have tried to make it as simple as possible. Basically, a fleet's assimilation capability is equal to its combined Crew value (warships only) divided by 10 (which corresponds to the ships' real crew complement divided by 1000). Each Cube is worth 64, and each Diamond 50; the description might be misleading here, I guess.
You only need to overcome the garrison, not the population.
edit:
- in the "system" panel, when a fleet is selected in the Task Forces expander, below the ships' icons?
- in the Assets screen, Task Forces tab, but it's not so handy I think
Re: Playing as the Borg
Should we make the Maturation Chambers a OnePerSystem building (instead of 1 per 100 population), to slow down the Borg's increase of population support (which caps fleet size) 
Or reduce the population support modifier
Or reduce the population support modifier
Re: Supremacy new release
I tried a Borg game this time,... in fact two Borg games 
First one was with the Tech Level set Early, so I had only two probes. A game could not allow to expand because of low level of Duranium, which cannot be increased fast enough having only one system. In effect I was not able to build my first 2-3 cubes. It is not a problem to start a game slowly. The problem was that I had nothing to do in dozens of turns. At least the turns were very fast. Also first generation enemy ships were not a fun to fight against.
So I switched to a second game, with starting Tech Level set as Supreme. In such case the initial volume of Duranium is 5000, but I met another limitation in population support, but it faded in time. The game was more interesting, but as the Borg game quite repetitive in more advanced phase. At least I met some reactions of enemy fleets attacking some of my systems. In more advanced game the Borg has too much resources or fleet support, depending of course on growing number of assimilated systems, so any resistance against that is futile.
First one was with the Tech Level set Early, so I had only two probes. A game could not allow to expand because of low level of Duranium, which cannot be increased fast enough having only one system. In effect I was not able to build my first 2-3 cubes. It is not a problem to start a game slowly. The problem was that I had nothing to do in dozens of turns. At least the turns were very fast.
Also first generation enemy ships were not a fun to fight against.So I switched to a second game, with starting Tech Level set as Supreme. In such case the initial volume of Duranium is 5000, but I met another limitation in population support, but it faded in time. The game was more interesting, but as the Borg game quite repetitive in more advanced phase. At least I met some reactions of enemy fleets attacking some of my systems. In more advanced game the Borg has too much resources or fleet support, depending of course on growing number of assimilated systems, so any resistance against that is futile.
Re: Playing as the Borg
Hi geordie.
Ah yes, the Borg are a bit of a challenge to make interesting to be played.
I moved your post to this thread, so we can start a discussion on how to improve them.
From your values, it seems you started those games with the 7dec patch. The 10dec patch addressed that a bit (Hulls had been increased some time ago but starting resources were not), Early now starts with 3000 and Supreme 6000. Might not be enough though, not sure. 3000 should be enough to build 3 Cubes or so, which should be enough to assimilate a few of the minor races' homesystems.
I will decrease the number of Production Facilities they start with in the lower starting levels, so that there's something to do.
And Buildings too. Suggestions
I actually decreased their starting ships, from 15 or so to 5 or 6. They could hold their own against the Borg, but getting them to sign a membership treaty could ruin your finances. And *their* finances I'm sure wouldn't take too long to go into the red.
BTW, how did you find the new Hull/Shields values for Borg ships (less shields, a bit more hull)? Better than before, or worst
Does it need more tweaking? Or an overhaul?
Also, maybe Borg ships should not gain experience in combat? Their ships are good enough as is.
You need to take into account the maintenance cost of transwarp hubs though, as it is counted towards your support! Again, it's intended, but I'm not sure if it is really helpful in doing what it is supposed to, slowing down Borg development.
Fleet support: increasing maintenance cost for TWHs like mentioned above might not be enough. I can decrease the pop support modifier (which is 1.0 currently, that is, support equals current total population; there was one patch that I had it lowered to 0.3, but there were some issues I had to take care first, so I reverted it), and maybe increase the [hard-coded] minimum value for Borg pop support (currently set at 400, to allow them to get a minimally decent starting fleet).
Making the Maturation Chambers a OnePerSystem building (instead of 1 per 100 pop) might help in slowing down the increase in pop support a bit, should we try that?
Resources: not easy to address I guess, changing the outputs of Hive Link and Tritanium Forge will have opposing impacts in the early game and in the late game. We have the TWHs drain a considerable amount of deuterium when used, maybe have something similar for the Unimatrix, with duranium and/or dilithium?
One other possible change that can be made is the Borg not getting the morale bonus to production; it doesn't directly help with these 2 issues, but making construction take longer will also slow them down. Build costs might have to be tweaked a bit, as having construction take twice (Fanatic bonus) as long as currently might make it too boring/slow.
BTW, the next patch should have some fixes to the Borg, there were a few issues that I think I finally nailed.
Ah yes, the Borg are a bit of a challenge to make interesting to be played.
I moved your post to this thread, so we can start a discussion on how to improve them.
From your values, it seems you started those games with the 7dec patch. The 10dec patch addressed that a bit (Hulls had been increased some time ago but starting resources were not), Early now starts with 3000 and Supreme 6000. Might not be enough though, not sure. 3000 should be enough to build 3 Cubes or so, which should be enough to assimilate a few of the minor races' homesystems.
I will decrease the number of Production Facilities they start with in the lower starting levels, so that there's something to do.
And Buildings too. Suggestions Yes, except for the HirogenAlso first generation enemy ships were not a fun to fight against.
I actually decreased their starting ships, from 15 or so to 5 or 6. They could hold their own against the Borg, but getting them to sign a membership treaty could ruin your finances. And *their* finances I'm sure wouldn't take too long to go into the red.BTW, how did you find the new Hull/Shields values for Borg ships (less shields, a bit more hull)? Better than before, or worst
Does it need more tweaking? Or an overhaul?
Also, maybe Borg ships should not gain experience in combat? Their ships are good enough as is.
That's kind of intended, to give empires time to expand (and increase their own support) and build a decent military.but I met another limitation in population support, but it faded in time.
You need to take into account the maintenance cost of transwarp hubs though, as it is counted towards your support! Again, it's intended, but I'm not sure if it is really helpful in doing what it is supposed to, slowing down Borg development.
I need ideas to counter that.The game was more interesting, but as the Borg game quite repetitive in more advanced phase.
At least I met some reactions of enemy fleets attacking some of my systems.
Yes, those are the 2 main problems we need to address:In more advanced game the Borg has too much resources or fleet support, depending of course on growing number of assimilated systems, so any resistance against that is futile.
Fleet support: increasing maintenance cost for TWHs like mentioned above might not be enough. I can decrease the pop support modifier (which is 1.0 currently, that is, support equals current total population; there was one patch that I had it lowered to 0.3, but there were some issues I had to take care first, so I reverted it), and maybe increase the [hard-coded] minimum value for Borg pop support (currently set at 400, to allow them to get a minimally decent starting fleet).
Making the Maturation Chambers a OnePerSystem building (instead of 1 per 100 pop) might help in slowing down the increase in pop support a bit, should we try that?
Resources: not easy to address I guess, changing the outputs of Hive Link and Tritanium Forge will have opposing impacts in the early game and in the late game. We have the TWHs drain a considerable amount of deuterium when used, maybe have something similar for the Unimatrix, with duranium and/or dilithium?
One other possible change that can be made is the Borg not getting the morale bonus to production; it doesn't directly help with these 2 issues, but making construction take longer will also slow them down. Build costs might have to be tweaked a bit, as having construction take twice (Fanatic bonus) as long as currently might make it too boring/slow.
BTW, the next patch should have some fixes to the Borg, there were a few issues that I think I finally nailed.
Re: Playing as the Borg
In the new patch:
Made some changes to the starting conditions in Early and Developed - less PFs and Buildings.
Pop support is now only 0.3.
Maturation Chambers is OnePerSystem.
Transwarp Hub and Assembler maintenance cost both changed to 50, to avoid bumps in maintenance cost when TWHs are built.
Feedback is essential to make playing the Borg a bit more interesting!
And suggestions are welcome ofc.
Made some changes to the starting conditions in Early and Developed - less PFs and Buildings.
Pop support is now only 0.3.
Maturation Chambers is OnePerSystem.
Transwarp Hub and Assembler maintenance cost both changed to 50, to avoid bumps in maintenance cost when TWHs are built.
Feedback is essential to make playing the Borg a bit more interesting!
And suggestions are welcome ofc.
Re: Playing as the Borg
Should Supreme also not start with population and structures maximized, so that there's (more) things to do in the early game?
Re: Playing as the Borg
I have started the Borg game another time with Dec17 patch, huge galaxy, Supreme tech level, Best starting facilities.
Only one possible Maturation Chamber looks Okay, some systems develop slower, but it is manageable.
The problem was again with a slow start and by that I mean really quite many turns just waiting to achieve a certain level of fleet support - I had to somehow assimilate 5 or 6 systems having only 2 cubes + 1 diamond to get a possibility to construct first additional cube. Fortunately I had some minor races nearby, because I was able to build only ones assembler.
There is a stating limit of fleet support set as 400 and it is not growing unless a population of 1333 is surpassed. So I propose that any increase of population above 250 (as Unimatrix 01 population) would cause fleet support increase. Then a factor of 0.3 is OK.
The problem is in AI level of other imperia - to be more aggressive and considered. To attack the Borg systems or at least shipyards, to make a dead zones around assimilated systems, to attack TWHs (it's done), construct really huge fleets, make real war alliances and maybe to add an option to abandon some colonies make that dead zone easier.
I understand that the Borg game require unique AI for the Borg enemies. For now every empire tries to colonize systems in proximity of Borg systems, which only makes an assimilation easier.
Other idea to make the game more interesting could be to use other structures, like Assimilation Archives, Species Databases and Resonance Chambers for some purposes, at least for gamers loving micromanagement - I am not sure if there are any plans for that.
Only one possible Maturation Chamber looks Okay, some systems develop slower, but it is manageable.
The problem was again with a slow start and by that I mean really quite many turns just waiting to achieve a certain level of fleet support - I had to somehow assimilate 5 or 6 systems having only 2 cubes + 1 diamond to get a possibility to construct first additional cube. Fortunately I had some minor races nearby, because I was able to build only ones assembler.
There is a stating limit of fleet support set as 400 and it is not growing unless a population of 1333 is surpassed. So I propose that any increase of population above 250 (as Unimatrix 01 population) would cause fleet support increase. Then a factor of 0.3 is OK.
For now I am against that. The problem is not in making the Borg weaker, as the idea of a weak Borg Collective is weird itselfShould Supreme also not start with population and structures maximized, so that there's (more) things to do in the early game?
The problem is in AI level of other imperia - to be more aggressive and considered. To attack the Borg systems or at least shipyards, to make a dead zones around assimilated systems, to attack TWHs (it's done), construct really huge fleets, make real war alliances and maybe to add an option to abandon some colonies make that dead zone easier.
I understand that the Borg game require unique AI for the Borg enemies. For now every empire tries to colonize systems in proximity of Borg systems, which only makes an assimilation easier.
Other idea to make the game more interesting could be to use other structures, like Assimilation Archives, Species Databases and Resonance Chambers for some purposes, at least for gamers loving micromanagement - I am not sure if there are any plans for that.
Re: Playing as the Borg
So, should we keep it as it is now, or revert it?
(that is, which is more "fun", while keeping balance and pace in mind)
Yes, that's a consequence of reducing support to 0.3. The thing is, increasing it means in the late game you will basically have no limitation on fleet size...The problem was again with a slow start and by that I mean really quite many turns just waiting to achieve a certain level of fleet support - I had to somehow assimilate 5 or 6 systems having only 2 cubes + 1 diamond to get a possibility to construct first additional cube. Fortunately I had some minor races nearby, because I was able to build only ones assembler.
There is a stating limit of fleet support set as 400 and it is not growing unless a population of 1333 is surpassed.
Not having minors nearby is a big issue, though.
One of the things in my ToDo list is adding a new bonus for +FleetSupport, to replace the 400 minimum. Will probably change the Central Alcove to this bonus; or the Hive Link, and allow it to be built in any system, giving a small bonus - and restricting support from population.
I'll add that bonus the next time there's other changes that break savegames, along with some other stuff.
You mean (total pop - 250) * supportSo I propose that any increase of population above 250 (as Unimatrix 01 population) would cause fleet support increase. Then a factor of 0.3 is OK.
And keeping the 400 minimum
What if Unimatrix is destroyed, how would that be handled
The AI *should* already attack shipyards/colonies, if it is not then something might be broken. I'll check.For now I am against that. The problem is not in making the Borg weaker, as the idea of a weak Borg Collective is weird itself
The problem is in AI level of other imperia - to be more aggressive and considered. To attack the Borg systems or at least shipyards, to make a dead zones around assimilated systems, to attack TWHs (it's done), construct really huge fleets, make real war alliances and maybe to add an option to abandon some colonies make that dead zone easier.
The AI still needs a lot of work, not just against the Borg but against other empires too. I'll look into not colonizing near the Borg.I understand that the Borg game require unique AI for the Borg enemies. For now every empire tries to colonize systems in proximity of Borg systems, which only makes an assimilation easier.
I've been trying to fix the AI shipbuilding code so that they don't overbuild and get into financial trouble; I think I have nailed it, but still need some more work. Will release a new patch soon.
Well, research does have a purpose, even for the Borg. Their victory condition was implemented in the last patch (or was it the one before?), and that is reaching TL13.Other idea to make the game more interesting could be to use other structures, like Assimilation Archives, Species Databases and Resonance Chambers for some purposes, at least for gamers loving micromanagement - I am not sure if there are any plans for that.
There's no use for intel yet, not really sure what to do with it.
Thanks for the feedback!
Re: Playing as the Borg
Maybe fleet support for the Borg should be independent of population?
It could increase with turn number (and be modified by AIMode), for example. It wouldn't get out of control as they expand, and the Borg losing colonies (including Unimatrix) would not make them "bankrupt" (forcing the scrapping of ships).
It could increase with turn number (and be modified by AIMode), for example. It wouldn't get out of control as they expand, and the Borg losing colonies (including Unimatrix) would not make them "bankrupt" (forcing the scrapping of ships).
Re: Playing as the Borg
One more remark about AI behavior against the Borg, which I forgot to add last time.
After assimilation a colony, usually with Dilithium avalable, AI tries to launch attack the same system, to destroy it and colonize again, even if there are better systems quite near and independently on the Borg presence nearby.
Merry Xmas!!!
After assimilation a colony, usually with Dilithium avalable, AI tries to launch attack the same system, to destroy it and colonize again, even if there are better systems quite near and independently on the Borg presence nearby.
Merry Xmas!!!
Re: Playing as the Borg
I'm not sure I understood what you mean.
When the Borg AI assimilates a colony from an empire, that empire (or another empire?) attacks the system, destroys it, and colonizes it. Is this what you meant?
Do you have a savegame right before it happens, where I can check/debug this?
Was this with the latest patch, 23dec? The code is not complete yet, it only checks if the system is claimed by the Borg, doesn't check if it is close to Borg space yet. Will work on that in a couple of days.
Merry Xmas!
When the Borg AI assimilates a colony from an empire, that empire (or another empire?) attacks the system, destroys it, and colonizes it. Is this what you meant?
Do you have a savegame right before it happens, where I can check/debug this?
Was this with the latest patch, 23dec? The code is not complete yet, it only checks if the system is claimed by the Borg, doesn't check if it is close to Borg space yet. Will work on that in a couple of days.
Merry Xmas!
Re: Playing as the Borg
I couldn't find a proper save so I tried to recreate it.
There is a Klingon fleet in former Klingon system Setlik.
I am not sure if Klingons would be still going to colonize it after the destruction, because my comment related to previous patch.
Generally I would support to destroy any Borg system, not necessarily for immediate colonization. However there are quite close other, more valuable systems to destroy.
I also assume that the Borg fleets should not attack colony ships of other empires, as they the most friendly ships for the Borg.
I am not sure if Klingons would be still going to colonize it after the destruction, because my comment related to previous patch.
Generally I would support to destroy any Borg system, not necessarily for immediate colonization. However there are quite close other, more valuable systems to destroy.
I also assume that the Borg fleets should not attack colony ships of other empires, as they the most friendly ships for the Borg.