Upgrade Ships

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

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redhat1968
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Upgrade Ships

Post by redhat1968 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:10 pm

Thanks for all your hard work on Supremacy. I was a frustrated old BOTF player back in 2000 and the second version plays so much better not to mention all the new additions. I searched the forum but could not find anything about upgrading ships once the research prerequesites roll through. Is this something that is apart of the current version? No complaints, just curious.

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by Iceman » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:15 pm

Hey redhat
I just implemented upgrading stations for the next release, so this was pretty good timing ;)

Ship upgrades will be possible in the game, yes. Here is a question, how should this be implemented? I can think of 2 ways

1 - the upgrade is automatic once you have the tech prereqs
2 - you have to get the ship into a shipyard with a free dock and issue an upgrade order

Honestly I like 2 better, one of the reasons being that upgrades are a new ship class, contrary to BotF where they are refits in the same class.I also like to have as little ´magic´ as possible in space games.

What do you guys think?

While at it, what should we do with the crew´s experience? Halve it (after all it is a new ship class) or keep it, or reset it to zero, or whatever other option?
What about costs? Besides resources, should it also cost Credits? Building ships does not cost Credits, I´m not sure if upgrading them should.

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by redhat1968 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:05 pm

Thanks for the quick reply, Iceman. I definetly think it should be option number 2. Think of TOS NCC 1701 going to a dock right before The Motion Picture. I think if you could implement a reduced ship building resource cost to upgrade, say 50% of the energy, duranium, dilithium, and time would seem to me to be most realistic. I am just brain storming, so I am not trying to put any pressure or expectations, but a surplus depot could offer a discount of, let say 10%. Any special shipyards such as Utopia Planitia could offer 25%, meaning a total resource cost of only 25% of the cost to build the upgraded ship from scratch. Feel more than free to poke holes in my suggestion...

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by Iceman » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:20 pm

I can make all costs be the difference between the target design and the current design. That's how it works for upgrading orbital batteries.
I'll look into the Surplus Depot and Utopia Planitia modifiers.
Thanks for your input, and if you think of anything else, please feel free to post! About any aspect of the game, not just this, ofc.

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by Mr Sol » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:18 pm

Yes, bring the ships back to a free shipyard for upgrading.

Now about crew XP it should be a reduction to a fraction of the actual value based on the difference in levels from the actual level to the target level, since the player can have a ship from the beginning parked somewhere till the endgame. The % is the fraction of the current crew XP will be reduced to, so, a ship from level 1, the very beginning, will be upgraded to a level 5 ship: The current crew XP will be reduced TO 15% of the current crew XP value. Reduced TO, not BY, or it will become a proportionaly inverted reduction, which we dont want. Note that the same principle is valid to a ship from lvl 3 to 4: 50% less crew XP. Now need to check if this progression isnt cheated. Enjoy!

Values suggested:
From lvl x to lvl x+1: 50%
From lvl x to lvl X+2: 33%
From lvl x to lvl x+3: 25%
From lvl x to lvl x+4: 20%
From lvl x to lvl x+5: 15%
From lvl x to lvl x+6: 10%
From lvl x to lvl x+7: 5%

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by Iceman » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:17 am

Hey Mr Sol, thanks for your input!

Ok. I asked because this is somewhat of a micromanagement issue, but in a niche game like this I don't think people will mind the extra MM.

Re crew XP, in order to take advantage of the existing code, a ship would only be upgraded to its direct upgrade - that is, in order to upgrade a cruiser I to a cruiser III you'd have to first upgrade to cruiser II and then to III. That would make it have 25% the original XP (as opposed to 33% in your list).

Again, thanks! I'll try to make this a priority.
I've fixed shield regen in combat, and was going to tackle garrisons and the system assault sitrep next, but I might switch focus to this :D

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by Mr Sol » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:22 pm

Hellows.

Yes, I knew the progression was wrong anyway but then it was an idea. Following a reduction of 50% each new upgrade means that at an upgrade from lvl x to lvl x+4 will make the crew XP be so much reduced its almost easier to make a new ship. So you need a good discount in the upgrade prices to make it worthwhile, else I would scrap the old one and make a new. Upgrading a ship needs to be cheaper and faster than making a new one from zero.

About the micromanagement you could include a ship command "upgrade" in the ship command list. It will open the next time a new upgrade version is ready. Once it is selected the ship will move automaticaly to the next drydock and begin the upgrading process if the dock is empty, else it will wait in a queue where it would be listed as marked for upgrading, so the player may remove it from the list if a shit happen and all the sudden he need that ship for an emergency. This way you diminish or avoid the micromanagement issue.

Hugs.

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by Iceman » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:22 am

Mr Sol wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:22 pm
Yes, I knew the progression was wrong anyway but then it was an idea.
It isn't wrong, it is a nice progression. And since we only need the first 4 multipliers (see below), a formula is really easy to implement.

An alternative with a fixed multiplier could be using 60% instead of 50%, which would produce rther similar values to those you suggested:
From lvl x to lvl x+1: 60% (50)
From lvl x to lvl X+2: 36% (33)
From lvl x to lvl x+3: 22% (25)
From lvl x to lvl x+4: 13% (20)

Following a reduction of 50% each new upgrade means that at an upgrade from lvl x to lvl x+4 will make the crew XP be so much reduced its almost easier to make a new ship. So you need a good discount in the upgrade prices to make it worthwhile, else I would scrap the old one and make a new. Upgrading a ship needs to be cheaper and faster than making a new one from zero.
It should be really really rare to have +4 upgrades, only cruisers have 5 "tiers" and only the Feds IIRC.
And if there is such an upgrade, the tech should be so different that a drastic reduction in XP might be justified - or not, since it only affects accuracy and damage control and evasion?

About the micromanagement you could include a ship command "upgrade" in the ship command list. It will open the next time a new upgrade version is ready. Once it is selected the ship will move automaticaly to the next drydock and begin the upgrading process if the dock is empty, else it will wait in a queue where it would be listed as marked for upgrading, so the player may remove it from the list if a shit happen and all the sudden he need that ship for an emergency. This way you diminish or avoid the micromanagement issue.
Sounds nice. It may present a few challenges though. I'll see what I can do.

Cheers!

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by kaelis69 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:25 am

So has ship upgrading been implemented? I can't find anyway to upgrade the 2 type 1 frigates in the Sol system to type 2. I right click on the frigate icon and there is NO upgrade option. I click on the build icon in the shipyard and there is NO upgrade option. I even looked in the building list and as expected there was no option. So can I upgrade my ships or do I just scrap them and build their upgrades? Thank you.

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by Iceman » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:02 pm

Hey kaelis.
Nope, it hasn't been implemented yet. I've thinking about it lately though, so now that you mentioned it, I might just get around to it. ;)
For now it'll be implemented as a fleet order, it should be easier. And I'm already working on fleet orders anyway (Intercept and Terraform are still WiP). :D

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by Iceman » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:08 am

Is it really a good idea to have ships upgrade in the game?

I mean, except for a very few cases, and contrary to BotF, ship designs in Supremacy are not refits/upgrades of previous designs. They're completely new/different designs. In some cases the differences (in mass/size/general layout) is huge. Does it actually make any sense to have this as a feature?
Moreover, doesn't it make scrapping ships kind of moot? And the Surplus Depot(s)?
And to a point, actually building ships at some point in the game? Except to replace losses in combat obviously.

Just wondering if it is worth the work in oimplementing it if it will (negatively) affect the game.

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by thunderchero » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:08 am

depends, If you are talking about physical upgrade when models change design than I agree. If you are keeping cannon only a few federation ships would get retro fitted.

but if it is only statistical changes and weapon type upgrades as tech advances this would be expected.

The question is how to advance ship stats/weapons and or retro fits?

retro fits should only be done at a home system space yard while weapon upgrades could be done at most systems with ship yard.

other than federation retro fits, possibly Klingon and Romulan ships if cloak is to be added this would be considered a retro fit?

but instead of having to upgrade at each tech advance each ship type would have a required tech before upgrade would be allowed.

I always thought upgrades are needed for older ship due to keeping those experienced crews when those ships survive. And you are correct and those ships should no longer be build-able at some point or when retro fits are available. this would keep AI building newest and best ships.

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by Borealis999 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:26 pm

Iceman,

I agree with you questioning the validity of ship upgrades. Whilst the idea is good for upgrading the stats for a specific design (and maybe some minor physical design changes); it would not be good for upgrading the design itself. That would be like trying to upgrade an Invincible-Class aircraft carrier to a Queen Elizabeth-Class! It wouldn't be done. They wouldn't try to retrofit a Galaxy-Class starship to a Sovereign-Class. There's nothing to say you can't have more classes of ships that have different capabilities, is there? (except for finding equal variations for the other empires.) :)

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by Iceman » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:57 am

Sorry, didn't have the time to reply to this last night.
Yes, in Supremacy these are physical upgrades (except for the Enterprise > Enterprise refit). Not sure if it´s actually possible to do stats upgrades (and it would not be just weapons, but range, speed, etc).As for experience, crews shouldn't really be "immortal", should they? ;) I mean, if you can keep upgrading your older ships and retain their XP, those crews might actually be in service for 100+ years.

This got me thinking about targeting. I'm thinking of adding a bonus related to your current Computers tech level so that more advanced designs have better base targeting. What do you guys think?

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Re: Upgrade Ships

Post by thunderchero » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:50 am

no matter what this is tricky to keep balanced, too late of retro fit or upgrade will unbalance game very quickly.

as for ships with legendary crews when they are retro fitted, these ships should no longer be available and stats should not exceed next available replacement. Also since these ships may not see as much action since player may want to preserve the few ships they have left.

Experience should degrade over time when not used in combat regularly. Plus side to this if they use these rare ships in combat to keep experience level high it will have a good chance they will lose those older experienced ships.

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