Thank you!

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

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crazyewok
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Re: Thank you!

Post by crazyewok » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:49 pm

Iceman wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:03 pm
Wow, that's 45 ships not counting non-combat ships, and stations. That's a lot of ships, and a lot of models... balance (and purpose) will be a nightmare.
You'll probably not be able to get as many ships for the other major civs.

I'll be interesting to see how this will turn out! :up:
Models I am going to see if I can use the designs from other mods by asking permission.

Purpose?
Surveyer: cheap science vessel with little combat effectiveness.
Scout: fast but shorter range with better defences than a surveyer.

Frigate: short range patrol vessel. Cheap cheerfully fire support. Slow but can be built in large numbers to prop up outposts. Low maintenance.

Destroyer: beefed up frigate with designed for fleet support. Still pretty short range but faster than a frigate. Good raider and intercepted.

Fast destroyer: like destroyer but can dart quickly across maps. Very high maintence. Good raider
Excellent interceptor.

Light cruiser: short range fast cruiser within beefed up defences compared to a destroyer. Low maintence. Good interceptor.

Heavy cruisers: long range but slower than a light cruisers, higher maintence.

Battle cruiser: mid range, mid speed ,packs a lot of fire power, but weak shields. Good raider


Battleship: behamouth that spews out death. Slow, short range and stupidly high maintence.

Basically you would end up with three type of fleets.

1) heavy hitting fleet made of battleships, heavy cruisers and frigates. Good defence fleets.
2) light fleets made of battle cruisers, light cruisers and destroyers good for rapid offensives.
3) fast response fleets made of fast destroyers.

Science ships would be a non starter for fleets and scouts would be more strategic in nature being good support ships for fleets 1 and 2.

As for romulans and klingons I have some idea on how to fill the ship list as their are some good designs in the game star fleet command and armada games.

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Danijel
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Re: Thank you!

Post by Danijel » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:16 pm

crazyewok wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:49 pm
Models I am going to see if I can use the designs from other mods by asking permission.
Most models ,if not on page you are downloading from, contain readme that includes kind of usage.
But for Supremacy you can use pretty much most of them(specially those from star trek pages).
crazyewok wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:49 pm
As for romulans and klingons I have some idea on how to fill the ship list as their are some good designs in the game star fleet command and armada games.
Check STO ships ;)
soase community also has loads of models

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Re: Thank you!

Post by crazyewok » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:13 am

Danijel wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:16 pm
crazyewok wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:49 pm
Models I am going to see if I can use the designs from other mods by asking permission.
Most models ,if not on page you are downloading from, contain readme that includes kind of usage.
But for Supremacy you can use pretty much most of them(specially those from star trek pages).
crazyewok wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:49 pm
As for romulans and klingons I have some idea on how to fill the ship list as their are some good designs in the game star fleet command and armada games.
Check STO ships ;)
soase community also has loads of models
Soase was going to be one of my 1st points of call.
I use it for Star wars models with my 3d printing.

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Re: Thank you!

Post by Iceman » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:44 pm

crazyewok wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:49 pm
Surveyer: cheap science vessel with little combat effectiveness.
Scout: fast but shorter range with better defences than a surveyer.
By this I guess you mean the Scout has a shorter range than the Science Ship - but still has "long" range, I assume? Else I'm not sure it'd be much of a Scout :wink:

Frigate: short range patrol vessel. Cheap cheerfully fire support. Slow but can be built in large numbers to prop up outposts. Low maintenance.

Destroyer: beefed up frigate with designed for fleet support. Still pretty short range but faster than a frigate. Good raider and intercepted.
What kind of difference are you making between fire support (for outposts) and fleet support? Just curious.
Also, a Destroyer with short range, not sure it'll make for a very good raider or interceptor?

Fast destroyer: like destroyer but can dart quickly across maps. Very high maintence. Good raider
Excellent interceptor.
Also has short range like the Destroyer?

Light cruiser: short range fast cruiser within beefed up defences compared to a destroyer. Low maintence. Good interceptor.

Heavy cruisers: long range but slower than a light cruisers, higher maintence.

Battle cruiser: mid range, mid speed ,packs a lot of fire power, but weak shields. Good raider
What kind of values are you thinking for range and speed, for the various Cruiser types? I mean, especially for speed, unless you depart greatly from BotF, there's not much of a latitude for their values to differ, especially in lower tech levels.

Also, but more of a side note, aren't the Heavy versions (of Cruisers and Destroyers) supposed to be faster versions, and not slower?


Please take these are mere observations, to promote a discussion, I really appreciate it that you took the time to post about this! I wish there was more discussion about this kind of stuff.

These are not very far from what the game has right now. Except maybe ranges, hence my notes above. I want to understand your reasoning, to see if things can be improved. Ships stats are everything but final, in fact I have it in my todo list to give a pass on the heavier ships' stats - I feel like the lighter ones might be more efficient (as in, a group of Scouts might be more "powerful" than a Cruiser or Battleship of equivalent cost).

One thing I was trying to accomplish (and BotF does it in a way) was to have each major civ be "stronger" in certain ship classes - that is, not all of them would have all classes available, and some of those classes would be better than another civ's (like Klingons specializing in Battle Cruisers, and not having for example Light Cruisers, or the Dominion specializing in Battleships and Heavy Cruisers and "not" having Destroyers or Frigates (Attack Ships).
Having all civs have all classes might dilute such gameplay "diversity" in a way. Obviously I'm not saying this is what you're saying you're going to do, you only mentioned the Feds so far - just trying to get some conversation going here.

Basically you would end up with three type of fleets.

1) heavy hitting fleet made of battleships, heavy cruisers and frigates. Good defence fleets.
2) light fleets made of battle cruisers, light cruisers and destroyers good for rapid offensives.
3) fast response fleets made of fast destroyers.
1) The HC's LR seems a bit dissonant there?
2) The LC's SR will impair offensives behind enemy lines?
3) For defensive purposes I guess, if the FD has SR like the DE?

As for romulans and klingons I have some idea on how to fill the ship list as their are some good designs in the game star fleet command and armada games.
And the Cardassians and Dominion?

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Re: Thank you!

Post by crazyewok » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:14 am

Sorry when I wrote this i was in a rush. To clarify my thinking
Iceman wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:44 pm
crazyewok wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:49 pm
Surveyer: cheap science vessel with little combat effectiveness.
Scout: fast but shorter range with better defences than a surveyer.
By this I guess you mean the Scout has a shorter range than the Science Ship - but still has "long" range, I assume? Else I'm not sure it'd be much of a Scout :wink:
Yup. Medium range.



What kind of difference are you making between fire support (for outposts) and fleet support? Just curious.
Also, a Destroyer with short range, not sure it'll make for a very good raider or interceptor?
Frigate will be low speed short range but cheap maintenance. It's got similair firepower to a destroyer but it's low range and speed make it more suited to hanging about Starbase,outposts and planets.

Destroyer again i should of said medium range.

Also has short range like the Destroyer?
I would say short range on this purely as i think high speed should have a trade off of endurance.

Strategic placement of outposts and Starbase would be the key to using these effectively.


What kind of values are you thinking for range and speed, for the various Cruiser types? I mean, especially for speed, unless you depart greatly from BotF, there's not much of a latitude for their values to differ, especially in lower tech levels.

Also, but more of a side note, aren't the Heavy versions (of Cruisers and Destroyers) supposed to be faster versions, and not slower?
I have always envisioned light cruisers as lighter armed and defended but faster with low endurance due to lack of cargo space.



One thing I was trying to accomplish (and BotF does it in a way) was to have each major civ be "stronger" in certain ship classes - that is, not all of them would have all classes available, and some of those classes would be better than another civ's (like Klingons specializing in Battle Cruisers, and not having for example Light Cruisers, or the Dominion specializing in Battleships and Heavy Cruisers and "not" having Destroyers or Frigates (Attack Ships).
Having all civs have all classes might dilute such gameplay "diversity" in a way. Obviously I'm not saying this is what you're saying you're going to do, you only mentioned the Feds so far - just trying to get some conversation going here.
I have been giving this thought.
I am going to give the races advantages and disadvantages in some areas.

IE the federation battleships AKA explorers will have greater range to their romulans and Klingon counterpart but lack a lot in firepower.

Klingons will specilise in heavy ships and light ships but lag in heavy and light cruiser classes.


1) The HC's LR seems a bit dissonant there?
2) The LC's SR will impair offensives behind enemy lines?
3) For defensive purposes I guess, if the FD has SR like the DE?
Even better! I was creating fleets for speed and your thinking range.

That's what I am trying to accomplish. You can have either speed or endurance not both.

For a speed focused player Starbase and outpost placement is key.

In fact in the show Starbase and outpost for mobilising where always figured as key components in war.


And the Cardassians and Dominion?

Dominion i am trying to think of something "unique".
Possible having them rely on member race designs for some classes but having surperb ships for the classes they do have.

Cardies ..... i will come up with something. Just to me they where always a regional power.

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Re: Thank you!

Post by crazyewok » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:04 am

Trying to add 3d models. How do the Xnb files work as I have never encountered them?

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Re: Thank you!

Post by Danijel » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:31 am

You need to export model file in .X (DirextX) format ,images dont matter, can be in any usual format,..
if you are using 3ds max, there is Aldi or Adis or something like that, Xporter plugin

xnb is microsoft special way of packing things with xna, since they are special company :D

to pack it you will need vs2008, xna 3.1, xnags 3.1 and some examples,
or one peace of (dis)assembled prog that i slapped to make things bit faster

in that case youll need guidance from me ^^ few parlor tricks,...and ull get them files into xnb

if you are looking only to preview them, than there is this;
https://www.gruaz.net/projects/the-gametools-suite/

EDIT:
Forgot to mention, since they are special company, nobody found a way to export 3d models from actual xnb, only 2d textures :roll:

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Re: Thank you!

Post by Iceman » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:04 am

crazyewok wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:14 am
Yup. Medium range.
So, science ships have LR and scouts MR?
Won't that just invite you to use science ships instead of scouts to, hmm, scout? :wink:

Frigate will be low speed short range but cheap maintenance. It's got similair firepower to a destroyer but it's low range and speed make it more suited to hanging about Starbase,outposts and planets.

Destroyer again i should of said medium range.
Oh, cool. Frigs are just cheap defenders - patrol ships of sorts, I guess.
Currently in Supremacy only the Feds have Frigates, and their differences to the Heavy Destroyers are basically lower firepower, lower defenses, lower maintenance and higher maneuverability. I guess a few tweaks could be made.

I would say short range on this purely as i think high speed should have a trade off of endurance.

Strategic placement of outposts and Starbase would be the key to using these effectively.
Interceptors, or escorts. Sounds good. Raiding is best left for regular Destroyers, and Scouts.

I have always envisioned light cruisers as lighter armed and defended but faster with low endurance due to lack of cargo space.
Cargo space, as in, for fuel? I don't think that's actually a factor is ST?
In naval terms, heavy cruisers have longer range and higher speed than regular cruisers - they're heavier precisely to pack more powerful engines (and weapons and armor). Their cost is also higher, ofc.

I have been giving this thought.
I am going to give the races advantages and disadvantages in some areas.

IE the federation battleships AKA explorers will have greater range to their romulans and Klingon counterpart but lack a lot in firepower.

Klingons will specilise in heavy ships and light ships but lag in heavy and light cruiser classes.
In Supremacy there aren't many (yet) differences in ranges, as I think it is one of the most potentially unbalancing stats. IIRC only the Fed and Dom scouts have higher range than their counterparts.
But Klingons have more weapons (and a bit less defense), Romulans have lower speeds in cloaking vessels, Cardassians have thicker hulls (but slightly weaker shields, roughly the same as the Klingons), etc.

Even better! I was creating fleets for speed and your thinking range.

That's what I am trying to accomplish. You can have either speed or endurance not both.

For a speed focused player Starbase and outpost placement is key.

In fact in the show Starbase and outpost for mobilising where always figured as key components in war.
Sure, but notice that SBs and OPs have a maintenance cost too, and in the case of SBs, a pretty hefty one. A speed based player will have to pay not only the heavy maintenance for his fast ships, but also for the network of stations he will need in order to actually be able to use those ships.

Dominion i am trying to think of something "unique".
Possible having them rely on member race designs for some classes but having surperb ships for the classes they do have.

Cardies ..... i will come up with something. Just to me they where always a regional power.
Minor race designs are available to any major that members them. The problem with that is they're pretty much "static" designs, they don't upgrade with tech level.
The Dominion already are something like that in Supremacy. They have "extreme" classes, the Attack Ships on the lower side, the huge Battleships (especially the III) on the other. The Cruisers are still a bit up in the air, should they go fully Heavy Cruisers and create a "hole" in middle sized designs, or fill that middle sized slot and not have the HC role...

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Re: Thank you!

Post by crazyewok » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:43 pm

Science will have slightly longer range than a scout which still has long range.
Scouts will also be able to hold their own in combat.

Science:
Pros
Longest range
Best science gathering.
Longest range sensors.
Very cheap
Cons
Very limited defences
Poor sensor quality.
Slow

Scout:
Can hold it's own in battle.
Good sensor quality.
Faster.
Cons
Slightly less range
More expensive
Less senior range




As for light cruisers I get your point but there needs to be some differences between heavy and light and fuel was a issue for voyager. And I am going for heavy armed being slow and lighter armed being faster.


For the dominion. I might have them excell at those 3 classes and just have the rest be filler ships. The dominion main strategy being to turn up with overwhelming numbers and fire power and to win by brute strength.

Starbases I am wondering.........

Start at a outpost.
But maybe split into two branches drydock and starbases.

Starbases : provide a big range boost and maybe medical boost.

Drydock: gives a repair post and ship production boost.

If possible you could add mothballing for drydock. In mothballs you only pay 1/4maintenance.
However shields are set at 0 and it can not move or use weapons.
To activate takes 2 turns and costs some dilithium.

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Re: Thank you!

Post by Iceman » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:42 pm

SCI vs SCO
That's pretty much what we currently have, except for Range (which is the same for both) and Sensor Range (which is reversed).
Notice that if you make science ships have longer sensor range, you'll have them being used as pickets/sentries/scouts instead of scouts. Which doesn't make any sense. And they're cheaper too, faster to build!

LCR vs HCR
LCRs have higher maneuverability, so they have advantages *in combat*. Strategically, HCRs are all-around best, as their name and *cost* imply ;)

Stations
Range is determined by ships, not stations (or any other range provider). We're basically talking supplies, so there isn't any real reason that I can think of for SBs to provide more range than OPs. BotF devs certainly didn't think so too.
Mothballing ships for reduced maintenance was part of the initial design for the game. It was meant to be accomplished by the Supply Depot building - I'm not sure it would be a meaningful addition to the game though, if potential issues are considered.

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Re: Thank you!

Post by Danijel » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:53 pm

Danijel wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:31 am
You need to export model file in .X (DirextX) format ,images dont matter, can be in any usual format,..
if you are using 3ds max, there is Aldi or Adis or something like that, Xporter plugin
Its Alin, if you use 3ds check here

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Re: Thank you!

Post by crazyewok » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:10 pm

Danijel wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:53 pm
Danijel wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:31 am
You need to export model file in .X (DirextX) format ,images dont matter, can be in any usual format,..
if you are using 3ds max, there is Aldi or Adis or something like that, Xporter plugin
Its Alin, if you use 3ds check here
Cool as it's 3ds max I use.

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Re: Thank you!

Post by crazyewok » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:20 pm

Anyway to change the number of stars per map? I was thinking of increasing the number of stars on a huge map.

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Re: Thank you!

Post by Danijel » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:08 pm

crazyewok wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:20 pm
Anyway to change the number of stars per map? I was thinking of increasing the number of stars on a huge map.
under Resources\Tables\UniverseTables.txt

Code: Select all

TableStart	GalaxySizes
ColumnHeadingsStart	Width	Height
RowHeadingsStart
Tiny	24	24
Small	36	36
Medium	48	48
Large	60	60
Huge	80	80
TableEnd
....
TableStart	StarTypeDist
ColumnHeadingsStart	Value
RowHeadingsStart
Blue	20
Green	5
White	35
Yellow	40
Orange	45
Red	50
Nebula	20
BlackHole	5
IonStorm	15
NeutronStar	5
Quasar	5
RadioPulsar	5
XRayPulsar	5
Wormhole	10
TableEnd

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Re: Thank you!

Post by crazyewok » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:14 pm

I have played with that. One only ajusts the map size the other seems to only change the ratio of stars not the number....

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