Cloaking

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

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Iceman
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Cloaking

Post by Iceman »

Branching a discussion about cloaking in BotF here, since Supremacy is much more flexible in what can be done.
Will split this into 2 parts, general behavior (starmap) and combat behavior.


general
- should cloaked ships always have their shields down :?:
The consequence of this is that stellar objects that deal damage (Neutron Stars, Black Holes and Ion Storms) are more devastating.
- should we double deuterium consumption for cloaked ships :?:

combat
When combat starts, cloaked ships now (not yet released) get their shields zeroed out. Having their shields down in the first round of combat means that in the 2nd round they'll have some shields, depending on their recharge rate, but they'll be more vulnerable nevertheless.
- in their free round, should cloaked ships only fire their disruptors :?: OR
- in their free round, should cloaked ships only fire their torpedoes :?: (I'm more inclined for this one)
- if they fire all weapons in the 1st round (like currently), should they be able to fire in the 2nd round :?: (simply as a matter of "balance")
- if they fire all weapons in the 1st round (like currently), should they get targeting bonuses from Crew XP, Computer TL, C&C, etc :?:

The point is to find a combination of these that makes cloaking feel balanced while remaining useful. No changes are mandatory though, we can keep things as they are now.
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Spocks-cuddly-tribble
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Re: Cloaking

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Don't forget about system attacks and OBs vs. cloak. Since in BotF OBs were meant to be fought like monsters in tactical combat, but later just got hot-fixed as buildings, cloak just gets ignored in this regard in BotF....

Also think about ship repair i.e. improved repair ratios of shipyards and starbases usable when cloaked? (another BotF glitch....).

EDIT: And wouldn't this imply that shields must stay down for all ships during accelerated repair?
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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Re: Cloaking

Post by Iceman »

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:25 am Don't forget about system attacks and OBs vs. cloak. Since in BotF OBs were meant to be fought like monsters in tactical combat, but later just got hot-fixed as buildings, cloak just gets ignored in this regard in BotF....
Good point. Not sure if that'll make the Roms too good vs OBs though. Might revisit their ships stats and lean them more towards torpedoes and less towards disruptors - that'll make them way less effective vs OBs (and planetary shields, and more vs ground targets).
Also think about ship repair i.e. improved repair ratios of shipyards and starbases usable when cloaked? (another BotF glitch....).
That's already on my list, when Repair is to be implemented. :wink:
EDIT: And wouldn't this imply that shields must stay down for all ships during accelerated repair?
Right. Will add to the list. :up:
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Pegasus
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Re: Cloaking

Post by Pegasus »

From my wishlist but an idea that I would have loved to have seen in BotF was for cloaking tech to be transferable between Empires. When the game was announced back in '99, I interpreted a reference in promotional material to stealing technology to be for cloaking tech rather than research points (which is basically useless!).

This could be done a few ways.

For example, the Treaty of Algeron prevented the Federation developing cloaking technology. If, in game, the Romulans and Federation go to war perhaps a cloaking tech tree could unlock for the Federation. Through research , the Federation could progressively unlock cloaked ships.

The Cardassians could steal cloaking technology using espionage, the Ferengi buy it through diplomacy. A warpact with a clocking tech enabled Empire is another possibility, as happened in DS9 with the Defiant's cloaking device loaned by the Romulans.

I also thought that capturing an Empire's home world should give you access to their ship designs and cloaking technology.

A compensating disadvantage such as reduced range and/or higher costs for the cloaked version of a normal ship would seem fair.
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Re: Cloaking

Post by Iceman »

Hey Pegasus.
While in theory this sounds cool, I'm not sure the game would actually benefit from this. If every major race gets access to cloaking, a major distinguishing feature for civs and their gameplay is gone.
And it would pose a problem: what would the Klingons and the Romulans be able to get access to that they usually don't? As you laid it out, only the other 3 majors gained something.
And the Defiant is already OP enough without cloak, but let's not go that way. :wink:
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Re: Cloaking

Post by Iceman »

Not sure if you guys notice this, but now you should only engage while cloaked (vs uncloaked) if you outnumber your opponent somewhat significantly - or risk being defeated.
Seems a good thing to me, but feedback would be very welcome.

Also, if you spot any bugs or incorrect behavior (in shield recharge for example), LMK!
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Re: Cloaking

Post by bbpbfb »

I understand balancing for multi player scenarios.. I'd like a SP only build that's more cannon based. More varied and accurate ship stats(Scimitar has the same number of weapons as a Sovereign class ship when cannon it has over 3 times the number). Cloaking that isn't nerfed. Borg cubes with a much higher build cost but also that take a large group of ships to destroy(maybe not 40 like wold 359, but maybe 20?. Lower ship maintenance costs so we can have large fleets like seen in the Dominion War. Anyone else have any interest in something like that? If you have other ideas post them.
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Re: Cloaking

Post by Iceman »

@geordie and everyone else, what do you guys think of this?
I mean cloaked ships starting battle with full shields vs no shields. In battles with a large number of ships (cloaked ships), how is the current implementation?

And the other issues too, but those have a thread of their own here.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by geordie »

If you feel some tweaking is necessary (in shield level after decloaking in combat), feel free to provide feedback, suggestions are always welcome.
Maybe for now an example:
My 20 cloaked cruisers attacked a Dominium fleet of 3 battleships and 5 attack ships. I took down all the attack ships and lost 12 (!) cruisers.
So really a Pyrrhic victory :(
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

And the 3 battleships ?
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by geordie »

Yes, all 3 battleships mark 1 and 2 have escaped the fight.
That's why I wrote about that.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

But your cruisers fired first, right?

Do you have a savegame for that battle? The outcome does seem very odd.
Maybe the RNG gods just weren't on your side, but I'd like to check.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by geordie »

The outcome was unexpected, so sorry, no savegame this time.
There was supposed to be a typical fight, I chose to attack a weaker fleet, so probably my cloaked fleet fired first and the Dominium tried to escape.
There was no wormhole so I suppose no gods were involved.
However there is something pending in the formulas, because yesterday in other moment of the game my escaping colony ship has destroyed Romulan cloaked scout.
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman »

geordie wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:51 am There was supposed to be a typical fight, I chose to attack a weaker fleet, so probably my cloaked fleet fired first and the Dominium tried to escape.
My guess is this is the same that happened to you a few months back. Since you're playing with AIMode set to Impossible, AI ships are high rank (Legendary); yours are most likely Green and Regular.

There was no wormhole so I suppose no gods were involved.
:lol:

However there is something pending in the formulas, because yesterday in other moment of the game my escaping colony ship has destroyed Romulan cloaked scout.
Klingon colony ships have defensive beam weapons, which fire back when attacked (provided the ship is not destroyed in the attack).
The scout must have attacked the colony ship, and got destroyed in the process. It happens fairly easily, because the scout will have its shields down - it must destroy the colony ship in a single volley.
While this might sound sort of silly, this is one of the strengths of the Klingons and Dominion, their support ships being armed, and thus being able to take on sniping scouts.


BTW, for the next patch, uncloaking ships will have their shields set to 50%. Some testing will be needed, I'm counting on you :wink:
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

Iceman wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:27 amfor the next patch, uncloaking ships will have their shields set to 50%. Some testing will be needed
It's great that you improve on the somewhat unbalanced cloak concept of BotF (low tech too weak, later OP). :up:

It raises a couple of questions wrt. game-balance vs ST canon.

BotF was never canon, but Star trek was never consistent with cloak abilities/disadvantages.
Sometimes they are blind/sensorless, sometimes they can fire torpedoes or even all weapons +shields whilst staying cloaked....


Shield/Weapons alert status of ships when surprise-attacked:

- setting task force (fleet) to red alert -> more maintenance/energy cost?
- how many 'free' shots before the target has shields/weapons online depending on alert status?
- sub-system damage was considered too intricate, but would affect this
- when shields down -> beam/torpedo effect deviation for hull/shields?

Shields and targeting of de-cloacking ships (Star Trek Armada cloak was pretty realistic):

- canon implies after a brief no-shields (i.e. transfering energy from cloak to weapons/shields) 100% shields (unless shield generator/energy core gets damaged by unexpected counter fire)
- how many free/random shots vs hull for red alert ships before de-cloacking ships have their shields up?
- should cloaked ships have the option to cancel attacks (without battle-lost morale penalty) when observing unfavorable target fleet strength/alert condition? or to de-cloak before the battle starts?


We talked about map-shields of cloaked ships. Unlike BotF they should avoid danger zone sectors like neutron stars and might be more exposed to some random events like hull virus or super-nova. Plus cloak should lower the repair percentage.
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
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