Cloaking

[geordie]

BTW, for the next patch, uncloaking ships will have their shields set to 50%. Some testing will be needed, I'm counting on you

I think 50% of shields could help. I suppose the Klingon cruiser problem was that cruiser III had a weak hull, only 160, so with significantly reduced shields it was an easy target.

[Iceman]

We talked about map-shields of cloaked ships. Unlike BotF they should avoid danger zone sectors like neutron stars

Yes, they do.

Plus cloak should lower the repair percentage.

Autorepair was removed. You need to go to a shipyard or a starbase to get repaired, and you need to decloak such ships for the repair order to be available.

[geordie]

I suggest that a fleet assaulting a system or attacking a shipyard should deckloak first.
It would complicate the tactics, which is... nice.

What do you think?

[Iceman]

What is your suggestion exactly?
That the player must decloak the fleet in the same turn that the assault/attack shipyard is issued?
Or that once one of those orders is issued, the fleet automatically decloaks?
Does it have any impact on gameplay other than forcing the player to re-cloak it again?
Just trying to get some discussion going

[geordie]

I see two options:
decloak manually to allow the assault
or
decloak automatically after choosing the assault, but the fleet remains uncloaked (for a manual cloak again)

Simply I see messages about a colony bombardment and the fleet remains hidden> For me it breaks the rule, that cloaked ships don't attack.

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

Does it have any impact on gameplay other than forcing the player to re-cloak it again?

It's one of the fixes I implemented in BotF, allowing a defending fleet to fight an uncloaked assaulting fleet (when entering the sector at the same turn i.e. short before the system attack).

A gamble for the defender, since the attacker could anticipate this and delay the system attack to a later turn in order to stay cloaked for the fight.

[Iceman]

It's one of the fixes I implemented in BotF, allowing a defending fleet to fight an uncloaked assaulting fleet (when entering the sector at the same turn i.e. short before the system attack).

But the assaulting fleet doesn't need to be uncloaked when it arrives - if they arrive in the same turn, they'll fight, with the attacker still being cloaked. In the next turn, then the attacker can uncloak and assault (the order you perform them being irrelevant).

The question is, *when* the decloaking should take place.
- at the start of the turn the assault takes place (the attacking fleet will not be cloaked for any space combats in that turn)
- at the start of the system assault phase (the attacking fleet will be cloaked for any space combats in that turn)

This should apply to other orders, like Attack Shipyard, Raid, Bio Attack.

[Iceman]

Simply I see messages about a colony bombardment and the fleet remains hidden>

That's a good point.
Which of the 2 options would be best?
Requiring manual decloak might confuse the player, when he doesn't see the assault option available

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

But the assaulting fleet doesn't need to be uncloaked when it arrives - if they arrive in the same turn, they'll fight, with the attacker still being cloaked. In the next turn, then the attacker can uncloak and assault (the order you perform them being irrelevant).

That's no contradiction (confusing sentence on my part, defender enters at the same turn of the system attack), we're talking about the turn the system attack 'would' happen if not disrupted. An unpredictable/small opportunity for the defender, but better than nothing at all.

The question is, *when* the decloaking should take place.
- at the start of the turn the assault takes place (the attacking fleet will not be cloaked for any space combats in that turn)

Yes! As told a tactical gamble, since none of the sides knows 'when' best to assault/de-cloak resp. to enter the sector with a defending fleet.

- at the start of the system assault phase (the attacking fleet will be cloaked for any space combats in that turn)

This would be pretty pointless (just a circumstantial re-cloaking order)?

This should apply to other orders, like Attack Shipyard, Raid, Bio Attack.

Should you really include Raid/Intercept in this concept?

decloak automatically after choosing the assault, but the fleet remains uncloaked (for a manual cloak again)

That's my BotF workaround.

[Iceman]

- at the start of the system assault phase (the attacking fleet will be cloaked for any space combats in that turn)

This would be pretty pointless (just a circumstantial re-cloaking order)?

Well, the point of the 2 options was to allow the attacker to still have cloak active (in space combat) if both fleets would arrive at the same time. It is not pointless.

This should apply to other orders, like Attack Shipyard, Raid, Bio Attack.

Should you really include Raid/Intercept in this concept?

I didn't mention Intercept Raid, if the ships are raiding the surface of the planets, they should need to uncloak?
And the same issue geordie mentioned would also apply here (getting a sitrep for an invisible fleet).

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

the point of the 2 options was to allow the attacker to still have cloak active (in space combat) if both fleets would arrive at the same time. It is not pointless.

The opposite would imply the need to decloak one turn before you can order a system attack (i.e. two turns before the attack).
E.g. like the funny GUI bug for cloaked, solitary player ships in vanilla BotF.

Raid, if the ships are raiding the surface of the planets, they should need to uncloak?
And the same issue geordie mentioned would also apply here (getting a sitrep for an invisible fleet).

I see, but it's also a question of game-balance. In vanilla BotF the raiding amounts can be flawed/OP, so yes decloaking might be Ok.

Using the corrected/lowered raiding credits of ECM, I'd think twice about enforcing decloaking for raid orders (pseudo-legitimation being they raid supply vessels with trade goods and trade routes). And there might be a difference between system blockade (raiding order performend in system sector) and regular raiding (raider fleet in adjacent sector)?

[Iceman]

the point of the 2 options was to allow the attacker to still have cloak active (in space combat) if both fleets would arrive at the same time. It is not pointless.

The opposite would imply the need to decloak one turn before you can order a system attack (i.e. two turns before the attack).
E.g. like the funny GUI bug for cloaked, solitary player ships in vanilla BotF.

Hmm?! The turn you issue the assault order, the fleet would first resolve any space combats (still fully cloaked), and after that (same turn) it would decloak (right before the assault).

Using the corrected/lowered raiding credits of ECM, I'd think twice about enforcing decloaking for raid orders (pseudo-legitimation being they raid supply vessels with trade goods and trade routes). And there might be a difference between system blockade (raiding order performend in system sector) and regular raiding (raider fleet in adjacent sector)?

There is no sector raiding in Supremacy. You only raid the system. You steal money from taxes, and from trade routes if any.
The system is blockaded, for all trade routes.

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

I think I get the misunderstanding. You might have missed that both of geordie's options do imply decloaking before the combat phase of the next turn. His hint about the message/report issue is just an extra note.

Only showing decloaked ships after the fact, without any real ingame impact (replicating one exploit/cheat in BotF) wouldn't affect any of the features, just reports/cosmetics. Hence my confusion. Of course, there is no game-balance reason to not show the ships, even for raid orders.

[Iceman]

You might want to read his suggestions again. I don't see how they imply that.

[Spocks-cuddly-tribble]

"a fleet assaulting a system or attacking a shipyard should decloak first. It would complicate the tactics, which is... nice."
-> decloaking first affects tactics = ingame effect (should mean combat)

"I see two options:" = practical GUI handling

"decloak manually to allow the assault" -> fleet has to be uncloaked in order to unlock assault button = is already uncloaked before any upcoming battle

"decloak automatically after choosing the assault, but the fleet remains uncloaked (for a manual cloak again)"
-> automatically/immediately after choosing i.e. ordering = again is already uncloaked before any upcoming battle

He implies in both cases the cloak button should be locked and/or using it should cancel the system assault order?