Cloaking

[akido]

[...]

This bug makes cloaked fleets worthless in combat and forces me to just run my fleets uncloaked so they can have full shields at the start of the engagement.

They're not exactly worthless. Like you mentioned, this test was made with a (numerically) inferior fleet. And the Fed ships are *really* tough. That partly explains the low casualty count on the Fed side. One other issue that also contributed to the outcome was that when your ships were fired upon they had zero shields, as opposed to 50% that they get on decloak - they should have decloaked before being targeted... thanks for the catch!

So, should I remove all this detection thing No firing back (with a penalty) on the 1st round of combat
Or just fix the moment the shields are set to 50% on decloak
What do you guys think?
Obviously, we want cloak not to be OP, but also not UP.
[...]

I really like the concept and such features, hence my recommendation is not to remove cloak detection. Apart from the little bug that you're fixing. However, you may play a bit with the formula (aggregated scan strength of the fleet v. cloak strength of a ship) if you feel that it is not yet properly balanced. You may also consider to add a randomization element to the ToHit penalty.

And not sure if I missed that aspect, but do the shields recharge at their normal recharge rate during the battle after decloaking or will they be back at 100% (minus potential hit points that they received in turn 1) in turn 2? That could be something to play with too.

[Iceman]

I really like the concept and such features, hence my recommendation is not to remove cloak detection. Apart from the little bug that you're fixing. However, you may play a bit with the formula (aggregated scan strength of the fleet v. cloak strength of a ship)

The aggregated scan strength of the fleet might be a bit too much. As it is, I'm taking it down a notch in the formula, to see if it works better. I might take it down yet another notch... Let's see how it goes!

if you feel that it is not yet properly balanced. You may also consider to add a randomization element to the ToHit penalty.

Yeah, that's a possibility. Might impact combat processing though, it already gets very slow with reports being logged (to be expected, of course).
I really need to take a pass at the combat code, clean it up a bit/lot. Maybe now it is a good time

And not sure if I missed that aspect, but do the shields recharge at their normal recharge rate during the battle after decloaking or will they be back at 100% (minus potential hit points that they received in turn 1) in turn 2? That could be something to play with too.

When a ship decloaks, its shields will be set (currently) to 50% their max value. As long as there's any shields left (after combat damage), they'll recharge at their normal rate each combat round.

[akido]

[...] When a ship decloaks, its shields will be set (currently) to 50% their max value. As long as there's any shields left (after combat damage), they'll recharge at their normal rate each combat round.

Okay, I could have looked at the code (I'm on something else right now.) But I would reconsider that to improve balance and canon compliance.

I.e. I suggest there should only be a shield penalty for the first combat turn, and shields fully recharged (minus damage taken in turn 1) afterwards.

[Iceman]

Hehe.

Shields fully recharged on round 2, I can imagine that being a bit OP if cloaked ships are not detected ? Which should be most of the time I guess.
I added the detection thingie mostly to account for battles where low tech cloaked ships would still get a free round vs higher tech ships.

edit:
moved this discussion to the Cloaking thread.

[geordie]

I suppose a cloaked fleet should have some advantages but cannot be invincible.
The cloaked fleet should attack first with 50% shields on, it worked fine in my last Klingon game. Of course it is only 50% so some losses may occur.
Maybe I misunderstood, but the detection factor was somehow breaking the first attack privilege of cloaked ships. Am I right?
I suppose the detection calculation should work only if the cloaked fleet is escaping.

[Iceman]

Maybe I misunderstood, but the detection factor was somehow breaking the first attack privilege of cloaked ships. Am I right?
I suppose the detection calculation should work only if the cloaked fleet is escaping.

What I would like to do is, if scan strength is such that cloaked ships are:
- not detected at all: only cloaked ships fire in that round
- detected but not identified: cloaked ships fire first, but may later in the (same) round be fired upon
- identified: cloaked ships do not get first strike, they are just harder to hit

Not sure how to implement this since there can be ships with different cloak strengths, and on both sides. Lots of variables

[Hebrewhammer]

Appreciate the quick reply

They're not exactly worthless. Like you mentioned, this test was made with a (numerically) inferior fleet. And the Fed ships are *really* tough. That partly explains the low casualty count on the Fed side. One other issue that also contributed to the outcome was that when your ships were fired upon they had zero shields, as opposed to 50% that they get on decloak - they should have decloaked before being targeted... thanks for the catch!

So, should I remove all this detection thing No firing back (with a penalty) on the 1st round of combat
Or just fix the moment the shields are set to 50% on decloak
What do you guys think?
Obviously, we want cloak not to be OP, but also not UP.

Thanks for the savegame, the battle report will be helpful for some tweaks!

I'm fine if this is by design but could you explain to me what the actual advantage is of being cloaked for the opening engagement, especially since after the first turn my fleet has less shields to work with after decloaking.

I can understand that you are trying to balance it so that cloaked fleets do not have an overwhelming advantage. I am just trying to figure out the game mechanics of the cloaking in general.

[Hebrewhammer]

Rereading your reply,

If I understand it correctly, you are saying that the higher tier ships with high sensor capability have a chance to detect and fire upon cloaked ships in the opening round of the fight?

[Iceman]

If I understand it correctly, you are saying that the higher tier ships with high sensor capability have a chance to detect and fire upon cloaked ships in the opening round of the fight?

Yes. It's still experimental though.

I have increased the chances for cloaked ships to fire first. Ships and stations now use their own scan strength to detect cloaked ships (instead of the player's scan strength in the sector); in the case of ships (except scouts and command ships), they have a bonus if there's a command ship or a starbase.

Haven't tested it yet though! It's getting kind of late, so I guess it'll have to wait until tomorrow.

I really like the concept and such features, hence my recommendation is not to remove cloak detection. Apart from the little bug that you're fixing. However, you may play a bit with the formula (aggregated scan strength of the fleet v. cloak strength of a ship)

The aggregated scan strength of the fleet might be a bit too much. As it is, I'm taking it down a notch in the formula, to see if it works better. I might take it down yet another notch... Let's see how it goes!

Uh, that was actually how it was working (the best scan strength of fleet and station)

[Hebrewhammer]

They're not exactly worthless. Like you mentioned, this test was made with a (numerically) inferior fleet. And the Fed ships are *really* tough. That partly explains the low casualty count on the Fed side. One other issue that also contributed to the outcome was that when your ships were fired upon they had zero shields, as opposed to 50% that they get on decloak - they should have decloaked before being targeted... thanks for the catch!

So, should I remove all this detection thing No firing back (with a penalty) on the 1st round of combat
Or just fix the moment the shields are set to 50% on decloak
What do you guys think?
Obviously, we want cloak not to be OP, but also not UP.

Thanks for the savegame, the battle report will be helpful for some tweaks!

I think I get what you are saying, but let me ask this. What is the actual point/advantage of cloaking a fleet?

[Iceman]

I think I get what you are saying, but let me ask this. What is the actual point/advantage of cloaking a fleet?

Like mentioned above, firing first (in the 1st round of combat, which is when when they're cloaked).
Which is what cloak is supposed to be for, in combat.


What we're discussing here is a couple of things.

If a cloaked low tech ship (say a Scout I) engages a high tech ship (say a Scout III), such that the latter's scan strength is higher than the former's cloak strength, doesn't seem to make much sense that the cloaked ship is not detected and thus can fire first.

If a cloaked ship engages a ship with a scan strength equivalent to its cloak strength, it is detected but not identified; if it is detected, it would make sense that, after firing its weapons (and only in that situation), it would immediately (ie same round of combat) become a target.

If a cloaked ship is not detected, it cannot be fired upon during that round of combat.


IMO, cloak in combat should be (best) used when you have an advantage (in numbers / firepower); that first volley should reduce enemy numbers to compensate for the lower shields disadvantage after decloaking.
In other situations, you should probably use cloak to retreat, and live to fight another day (with better odds). Or, engage anyway and try to cause as many casualties as possible with that 1st strike, if you're in a tight situation and need to buy some time.

But that's just my opinion, of course. That's what this thread is for, so we can discuss what the best implementation is. Everyone's opinion is important.

[Iceman]

The cloaked fleet should attack first with 50% shields on, it worked fine in my last Klingon game. Of course it is only 50% so some losses may occur.

Now, the question about shields on round 2 (starting fully recharged, or recharging according to recharge rate) only makes sense if we remove this whole detection on 1st round thing. That is, if the ships can be fired upon in the same turn that they decloak, it doesn't make any sense to *fully* recharge their shields after they have (potentially) been hit.

Maybe I misunderstood, but the detection factor was somehow breaking the first attack privilege of cloaked ships. Am I right?

Actually, the bug I mentioned, there was no bug. I misinterpreted battle results.
But to answer your question, it shouldn't, but it is possible that it could happen - especially on very high XP uncloaked ships vs very low XP cloaked ships. I tweaked the formula to make that a lot less probable (I kind of wanted high XP crews to be able to fire at cloaked ships).

I suppose the detection calculation should work only if the cloaked fleet is escaping.

That's what we're discussing right now. It is used in that situation (retreat), yes, but it also used during combat. In the circumstances I explained in the posts above.

[Hebrewhammer]

Sorry for the multiple posts yesterday, I did not realize the thread was moved and posted again believing that I forgot to submit it .

So my question is if the cloaked fleet comes against a fleet with equal scan strength to its cloak, is it now up to the crew exp between the two to determine if they are detected or not during the opening volley?

So end game would require me to have a highly experienced crew to maintain my advantage against an enemy with equal tire ships, assuming the enemy crews are also not highly experienced?

[Iceman]

Sorry for the multiple posts yesterday, I did not realize the thread was moved and posted again believing that I forgot to submit it .

No prob, keep it coming

So my question is if the cloaked fleet comes against a fleet with equal scan strength to its cloak, is it now up to the crew exp between the two to determine if they are detected or not during the opening volley?

So end game would require me to have a highly experienced crew to maintain my advantage against an enemy with equal tire ships, assuming the enemy crews are also not highly experienced?

If both values are equal, then cloaked ships are detected, but not identified. If scan strength is higher than cloak strength, then cloaked ships are identified. Right now, there's no distinction between detected and identified (in combat, for targeting purposes). But at some point, there will be.
The code is still a bit messy, but I figured out what the problem was (that made your 10 CRU IV take a beating) and fixed it (now they have a marginal win - they're heavily outnumbered but have much higher XP).

I'll probably release as is, and fix the rest later. I just need to look into another crash report that I just received.

Re your questions, crew XP doesn't affect detection, it affects initiative. Cloaked ships should have higher initiative, so they should fire first. Like I mentioned above, I tweaked the formula to make it even more probable.
So, you would only lose the advantage if the ships targeting your cloaked ships have enough scan strength to detect your cloaked ship, and their crews have a LOT of XP compared to your ship's, plus some other stuff.

[Hebrewhammer]

I just recently played another campaign and I am not sure if the detection had been tweaked on this most recent patch but on the previous patch I lost 2 cloaked klingon scout III's to 2 jem'hadar colony ship III's. It was 1 v 1 on both engagements with both ships having equal crew exp.

It feels like cloaking is more of a liability and not an advantage at this point. I understand that you are currently trying to balance the mechanic however I would keep in mind that the klingon and romulan vessels have over all slightly less shields and hull then their counter parts along with the lack of full shield strength after the opening turn.

I sure its still in adjustment phase at this point, but thought I would let you know what happened and maybe further adjustments to cloaking might be made down the line. However right now I seem to have more success running my fleets without cloaking.