The Dominion

[Iceman]

Logistic Command - I would limit its influence only to friendly empires or minor race, so at least having the Open Boarder Treaty.

Done!

Vorta Cloning Lab - I am not sure why +1 ship experience is there. Probably the Dominium should have a building increasing ship experience, but that building should provide a bonus in diplomacy.

You mean the Vorta Cloning Lab should be the one giving +Regard (instead of the Logistics Command)?
Maybe swap the bonuses of these 2 buildings would make more sense?

[Iceman]

As requested by Iceman I have been playing some turns as the Dominium, using both last patches.

Yes, I can see that you colonized one nebula with the older patch, and 2 more with the latest patch Now Rogue planets are renamed to Links when colonized by the Dominion

The building The Great Link (not the [Omarion Nebula] planet) should probably be renamed to something else... or should we keep the building as TGL and rename the planet?

Anyway, how does the new TGL building (+3 Morale) play compared to the old TGL (+1 Morale EW)

And the +Regard building only affecting Friendly+ civs

I've swapped the obsoletion path in the KW buildings, and will try to find a way to prevent having both in the same colony.

[Iceman]

OK, I try to remind myself what happened during the game:

General remark - the Dominium was developing slightly slower, especially in relations with minors.

Did you find it to be too slow, just about right, or too fast?

It is difficult to compare AI changes, but for the whole first part of the game (up to about 30 colonies) Klingons were slightly ahead and Feds were on about my level. After that all empires developed significantly slower and remained far behind, at least in number of controlled systems.

It must be a coincidence, but the Klingons generally seem to do well / start fast.

I noticed that the AIs were behind, especially the Cards... they must have had some (really) bad luck, with the starting position, and maybe with some random events. I don't think I changed anything in the colonization AI recently.

Anyway, how does the new TGL building (+3 Morale) play compared to the old TGL (+1 Morale EW)

The Founders' systems with TGL constructed were going quite fast to 'Fanatic' morale, so we could lower that to +2 and test how it works.

+2, done.
Now, with this change, IIRC Rogue planets can only get +4 Morale (unless there's a foreign +1 Morale EW), which IIRC doesn't allow Morale to remain at 200 (if reached ofc).
Should we let both Ketracel White Factory and White Distribution Centre be buildable in the same colony then? So they can get to +5? Or keep as is?

The diplomatic relations with friendly minors were improving also slower, but as you can see there was no special problem with increasing number of memberships. I would not go back to the previous version.

[Iceman]

The diplomatic relations with friendly minors were improving also slower, but as you can see there was no special problem with increasing number of memberships. I would not go back to the previous version.

With your treasury at 7.5K, and 13 Member and 8 Affiliated minors, do you think we should lower tax income, to delay memberships a bit, and also to make the Tribute Office (and subjugation) required for development and diplomacy? How do you find subjugated minors (the Kazon in your case) vs member minors?
The Dominion doesn't have trade routes by default (and by design), they have to rely on TO as a replacement (and Mercantile minors).

Sorry about the barrage of questions, but I'd really like to wrap up the Dominion as fast as possible.
We still need some soundfx for them, especially the diplomacy related ones. It took me a while to realise the lack of those soundfx was not a bug in the code, but simply that they were missing...

[geordie]

I think here is a discrepancy in White Distribution Centre description - I can build WDC first, but I do not know if I get the Ground Combat bonus.

Screenshot (63).jpg (526.27 KiB) Viewed 3461 times

Anyway I would propose to eliminate WDC from rough planet systems and leave it only for Jem'Hadar systems to keep their loyalty on. It is strange as well that the Founders would like to drug themselves, but maybe I am too much naive.
I suppose that the Great Link bonus is enough to reach Fanatic morale.

[Iceman]

I think here is a discrepancy in White Distribution Centre description - I can build WDC first, but I do not know if I get the Ground Combat bonus.

You mean with the WDC obsoleting the KWF?
Notice that one doesn't replace the other! If you build both (see below), you get both bonuses: +2 Morale, AND the GdCbt bonus.

But if you mean the text description, most if not all descriptions for Dominion buildings will need to be rewritten, as there were loads of changes!
We just need someone to do that rewriting.

Anyway I would propose to eliminate WDC from rough planet systems and leave it only for Jem'Hadar systems to keep their loyalty on.

That's what I wanted to do, but currently there's no way to do that. There's no restriction for NOT Nebula or NOT Rogue Planet, or equivalent. So I had to go this route, make one obsolete the other, so that if you build the KWF (TL5) in Links, you cannot build the WDC (TL6); this kind of works until you reach TL6 (unless you want to wait until TL6 to game the system, but you don't get the bonus until then).
Being able to build both using that loophole is hopefully temporary, I have it on my ToDo list to have the obsoletion code work not only for constructed buildings, but also for items in the build slot and queue.

The WDC being buildable in Native systems means you can build it in both Founder and Jem'Hadar colonies, due to the particular implementation of the Dominion.
I can change the code to make Native not be buildable in Founder colonies (as an exception), if that's what we want.

It is strange as well that the Founders would like to drug themselves, but maybe I am too much naive.

The K-W is for the Jem'Hadar garrisoning the Link, not for the Founders!

I suppose that the Great Link bonus is enough to reach Fanatic morale.

The question was about maintaining at Fanatic (which requires a permanent +5 morale in the colony), not reaching Fanatic (with temporary morale boosts like eliminating civs and whatnot).
+2 from Link, +1 from Vorta, +1 from KWF; that's +4. To get to +5, you need WDC, and hence my question: should it be buildable in Rogues or not?

[Iceman]

Should we swap the bonuses of some of the buildings?

What should we do with these:
Changeling Network
Changeling Replacements
Logistics Command
Vorta Cloning Lab

I'd like to make them more coherent. And their descriptions have to be rewritten, ofc.

Maybe a direct swap
Logistics Command -> +%InternalSecurity
Changeling Network -> +Regard

+2 from Link, +1 from Vorta, +1 from KWF; that's +4. To get to +5, you need WDC

Forgot about Changeling NW.

[Iceman]

How about increasing the Dominion's fleet population support (maybe even higher than the Klingons'?), and decreasing their tax output?
They can have larger fleets without paying maintenance / will have to pay less maintenance when over fleet population support; the lower taxes will then be more relevant for diplomacy and rush building stuff - the Tribute Office credits boost could then be increased from 40% to something like 100% (which can only be built in Subjugated colonies, but could be changed to NonNative colonies [Member + Subjugated].

[Iceman]

Has anyone played the Dominion lately?
Any changes needed? Is morale ok, and the economy?

I have a game going, but it was started with the "old" Elliptical star count and I have a huge amount of awesome systems, so it might be harder to judge.

[Iceman]

The Dominion still needs some more tweaks I think.
I'm thinking of increasing the energy cost of the Mining Complex, seems way too low. What do you guys think

A couple more issues:


Re swapping the bonuses (actually, swapping only the names) of Logistics Command (+1 Regard) and Vorta Cloning Lab (+1 ShipXP, +1 Morale) It seems it would sound more logical.
Or any other approach (new names, new bonuses, whatever). Whenever there's a new patch that breaks savegames, I'm planning to introduce some new bonuses, including +Personnel (more active agents), +FleetSupport (static value), etc.

I think here is a discrepancy in White Distribution Centre description - I can build WDC first, but I do not know if I get the Ground Combat bonus.

You mean with the WDC obsoleting the KWF?
Notice that one doesn't replace the other! If you build both (see below), you get both bonuses: +2 Morale, AND the GdCbt bonus.

Anyway I would propose to eliminate WDC from rough planet systems and leave it only for Jem'Hadar systems to keep their loyalty on.

That's what I wanted to do, but currently there's no way to do that. There's no restriction for NOT Nebula or NOT Rogue Planet, or equivalent. So I had to go this route, make one obsolete the other, so that if you build the KWF (TL5) in Links, you cannot build the WDC (TL6); this kind of works until you reach TL6 (unless you want to wait until TL6 to game the system, but you don't get the bonus until then).

Should we add an Asteroids requirement to the WDC (the image is consistent with that) It would "solve" this issue.

[the6the]

I played one a couple days ago and quit coz the treasury went bankrupt, so I though I'd played them wrong. Started a new game, this time only building 4 scouts by turn 70, the rest are colony ships, and my treasury is slowly but surely depleting itself, even though the fleet supply is over +1000.
I'm down to 400 credits, going down by -145 per turn, and it doesn't feel right.
12 colony ships and 4 scouts on the grid. Am I crazy in thinking this isn't much?
22 colonies, with over 3000 pop.. All tech is at lvl4 except energy at lvl5.
So, I'm guessing I have to scrap some colony ships to start getting the credits up.. But it doesn't seem right with the fleet supply being so high..

Oh and a bug in one of the systems.. although newly colonized, it lets me build intel building lvl 4 instead of lvl 1.. (sytem in 20,13)

SP Dominion Large Irregular 76.sav

(551.38 KiB) Downloaded 28 times

Anyone else played them recently?
I must admit, I have being playing the Borg lately exclusively, which are completely different to play, so it might just be me..
I'm gong to start a Klingon game to see how the economics work for comparison.

[Iceman]

It's not related to fleet support, you have plenty to spare.
And it's not related to the Dominion.

You just have too many *unmanned* PFs! Each one costs "maintenance" - and IIRC in Impossible, that cost is tripled.
I scrapped a bunch of them and immediately went to +175 credits a turn.

As for the bug, didn't you upgrade Intel to level 4? Because if I scrap that PF, I get to build level 1s...

[the6the]

It's not related to fleet support, you have plenty to spare.
And it's not related to the Dominion.

You just have too many *unmanned* PFs! Each one costs "maintenance" - and IIRC in Impossible, that cost is tripled.
I scrapped a bunch of them and immediately went to +175 credits a turn.

As for the bug, didn't you upgrade Intel to level 4? Because if I scrap that PF, I get to build level 1s...

Oh Wow. That would never have crossed my mind.. PF's costing that much. O.k. good to know!
That's kind of a bummer though, coz it means you can't really prepare a huge pop system ahead of time, without getting a lot of redundant pops.. But I get why it is the way it is. Timing is crucial.

As for the bug - no, AFAICR I didn't upgrade it, it was on the list to begin with. I would have had to upgrade it 3 times, and I think I'd remember doing that.

[Iceman]

Oh Wow. That would never have crossed my mind.. PF's costing that much. O.k. good to know!

It's not that they cost that much each, the problem is that you have a ton of them. And I didn't even go through all your systems.
For reference the cost is 1 credit per unmanned PF, doubled for Hard and tripled for Impossible.
Some time ago, following a similar discussion, I changed it to this maintenance cost only applying when the system's population is still growing. So it's a temporary upkeep, really. (*)

That's kind of a bummer though, coz it means you can't really prepare a huge pop system ahead of time, without getting a lot of redundant pops.. But I get why it is the way it is. Timing is crucial.

Without going into a RL vs gameplay debate , I've seen some really crazy stuff in some savegames.
To notice that building stuff actually "costs" credits, since you're not getting credits from Trade Goods. I'd argue that those credits are more useful earlier than later, but the reduced micromanagement kind of makes up for it.

(*) I could kind of reverse it and make it apply only after population is maximized, but that would make it kind of a permanent upkeep.
I can also just scrap the whole idea, since if you build 20 or 30 of each type of PF whatever the system size, you're already losing a bunch of TG credits by keeping your build queue busy unnecessarily.
Or, if we want to keep some degree of upkeep, pay only for those PFs above the maximum the colony can possibly man when fully populated.

This is not meant to be some sort of punishment, but an incentive to play efficiently - though you can always look at it both ways ofc.

As for the bug - no, AFAICR I didn't upgrade it, it was on the list to begin with. I would have had to upgrade it 3 times, and I think I'd remember doing that.

You wouldn't happen to have a savegame right before colonizing that system, would you?
Did it happen in any other system? I guess I can try to colonize a system with your save, and check what happens.

[the6the]

No, I'd keep the upkeep as is, I just never noticed it in any of the other games I played.. I must have been more efficient in those;)
I will definitely have my eye on this in the future though

Here's a savegame from, not before I colonized it, but before I built the first Intel PF, and interestingly, it's giving me a lvl1:

SP Dominion Large Irregular 56.sav

(525.99 KiB) Downloaded 34 times

I have no idea what happened between the two savegames, but it wasn't me.
The difference is only 20 turns. I built 14 other PFs in that time, and there was 3 turns left to finish the current build.. and with 4 active production PFs at turn 56 it would take me 2 turns to build the 5th production PF. A good number of them were research PFs worth 150.. the question is whether I would have even have enough time/turns to upgrade that intel PF to level 4 in those 20 turns (I didn't buy any buildings with credits in this system), even unintentionally. autobuild is off.
Dunno.