Minor races and terraforming

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

Moderators: thunderchero, Iceman

User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Commander
Lieutenant-Commander
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt »

Do minor races actually evolve when left alone, like in botf? Terraforming the planets in their system, expanding and upgrading their production facilities?
In the game I started the nearest minor race did not terraform any additional planet in 65 turns.
Iceman
Admiral
Admiral
Posts: 3296
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman »

Yes to the colony management part, no to the terraforming part - but that's on purpose, so that empires can terraform their systems for them, and thus improve relations. But I can change that. Actually one of the things in the ToDo list is to have higher level minors start with more terraformed planets according to their TL.
Minor races do not have colony ships to terraform planets, but I can do like BotF ofc. I can tie that to AIMode, keeping the current way for Normal only.
User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Commander
Lieutenant-Commander
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt »

Iceman wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 7:14 pm Yes to the colony management part, no to the terraforming part - but that's on purpose, so that empires can terraform their systems for them, and thus improve relations. But I can change that. Actually one of the things in the ToDo list is to have higher level minors start with more terraformed planets according to their TL.
Minor races do not have colony ships to terraform planets, but I can do like BotF ofc. I can tie that to AIMode, keeping the current way for Normal only.
Well, I think that depending on the tech level a civ should be able to terraform their planets (without visible terraforming ships, that is). Because really high-level ones, thinking of civs of Vulcan level or so, should definitely be able to do that.But I agree for lower tech civs, these should indeed not be able to terraform.

Starting with more habitable planets could make civs beefier and really hard to conquer in the early game, which would thus yield as an advantage for the feds. This indirect consequences on the power balance of the majors might be desirable or not. But it should be anyhow done with care.
Iceman
Admiral
Admiral
Posts: 3296
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman »

Split this into a new thread so that it is easier to access for discussion.
erazortt wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 1:09 am Well, I think that depending on the tech level a civ should be able to terraform their planets (without visible terraforming ships, that is). Because really high-level ones, thinking of civs of Vulcan level or so, should definitely be able to do that.But I agree for lower tech civs, these should indeed not be able to terraform.
Well, we can give some minors a colony ship design (ExpandingMinors already have images for colony ships), and have them not leave their homesystem, just terraform its planets. That would do away with the magic part :wink: It would take some coding, but it's doable. We could even have the colony ship be "spent" (for minors only) upon completion and add its pop, like a new colonization (but in the same system).

Starting with more habitable planets could make civs beefier and really hard to conquer in the early game, which would thus yield as an advantage for the feds. This indirect consequences on the power balance of the majors might be desirable or not. But it should be anyhow done with care.
Yes. I have actually started looking for minors that start with very low pop (the homesystems were not updated when terraforming was implemented) and increased it.

The Klingons and the Cardassians now should know better than terraforming systems of minor races that they might want to "persuade" to become part of the Empire/Union. :wink:
User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Commander
Lieutenant-Commander
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt »

Iceman wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 6:52 am Well, we can give some minors a colony ship design (ExpandingMinors already have images for colony ships), and have them not leave their homesystem, just terraform its planets. That would do away with the magic part :wink: It would take some coding, but it's doable. We could even have the colony ship be "spent" (for minors only) upon completion and add its pop, like a new colonization (but in the same system).
Actually I have no problem with the magic terraforimg as in Botf. Yes I agree its would be much cleaner to have them build an own colony ship for doing that. But if thats overcomplecating things, than i'd prefer the magic instead of no terraforming at all
Iceman
Admiral
Admiral
Posts: 3296
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman »

Ok.
So, we need to come up with a way to implement that.
There must be (TL) thresholds for each habitability level (Comfortable, Marginal, Hostile, etc).
What do we check? Average tech level? BioTech TL only?
The descriptions of BioTech techs do hint some at terraforming and whatnot.

Any suggestions?
This will be necessary whichever method we implement (colony ships or magic).
User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Commander
Lieutenant-Commander
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt »

Is there an overview which race reaches which TL?
Iceman
Admiral
Admiral
Posts: 3296
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman »

There is no cap on which TL any civ (major or minor) can reach. There's only a multiplier for when you start in a Starting Level higher than Early - each TechCurve has its own multiplier, so that say in an Advanced start, majors and TC6 minors start at max (TL7 for Advanced), TC5 minors start at either TL6 or 5, can't recall, etc.
So for an Early start, everyone starts equal. There are a few exceptions to this, like the Vulcans start at a minimum of TL3 or 4 IIRC, the El-Aurians (I think) can't recall their min, the Cytherians always start at TL11, and a couple of others.

Minor races and tech is a tricky thing. Now it's much better though, with terraforming. And that's why higher tech minors starting with more terraformed planets (or being able to terraform them) is important - to allow them to potentially start with more pop (and the starting pop % in the homesystem is also important for this) and thus with more labs / research.
In an Early start, (almost) everyone starts with TL1 labs, so we need to "force" higher tech minors to somehow be able to research more than lower tech ones.
Like mentioned, what we have to/can work with is:
- number of starting labs
- starting pop %
- size of home planet
- number of terraformed planets / having colony ship designs

We could also artificially change the output of their labs according to their TC.

We will need to go through all the minors and check this, to improve this aspect.
User avatar
Spocks-cuddly-tribble
Code Master
Code Master
Posts: 1884
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:00 am

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble »

How about a random chance / turn for 'magic terraforming' or building a colony ship.

Increase chance with:

- how few turns till current max pop reached (or start after it's reached, in BotF this is requirement)
- current bio or all tech -level
- maybe personality / habitability level modifiers...
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.
User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Commander
Lieutenant-Commander
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt »

I just took a look at HomeSystems.xml. There I see that currently the minors don't have any production facilities at start, also no research. So I guess they now build these facilites themselves? What I don't see in HomeSystems.xml is whether planets are terraformed or not.
And in Civilizations.xml are the TechCurves. But how TC and TL are related is not exactly clear for me still.
User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Commander
Lieutenant-Commander
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt »

So here are just some suggestions, after looking at the xmls. So at least TC5 civs should have the colonyship design, probably even TC4.
An idea would be that TCn could have n-1 research labs at the start.

And perhaps there should be a research muliplier for each TC. So somthing which would be used in combination to the case of subjugation like I suggested here (viewtopic.php?f=300&t=3068&p=52477#p52477) and with the multiplier as used now already for the game research speed settings (which I figured out here viewtopic.php?f=300&t=3068&p=52393#p52393).

So that the total multiplier could be something like: TCMultiplier*SubjugationMutiplier*GameSpeedMutiplier
GameSpeedMultiplier is like defined now.
SubjugatonMultiplier could be either 0.5 or 0.75 or somthing like that
TCMultiplier could be TC/6 which would be pretty extreme, or (TC+6)/12 which would be less extreme
Iceman
Admiral
Admiral
Posts: 3296
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman »

erazortt wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:23 pm I just took a look at HomeSystems.xml. There I see that currently the minors don't have any production facilities at start, also no research. So I guess they now build these facilites themselves?
Their PFs are calculated automatically by the homesystem generator (that is, they're not imposed by this file).

What I don't see in HomeSystems.xml is whether planets are terraformed or not.
Currently only the homeplanet is terraformed for minors. Majors have the entire homesystem terraformed from the start.

And in Civilizations.xml are the TechCurves. But how TC and TL are related is not exactly clear for me still.
It's a formula I came up with, as somewhat explained earlier.

So at least TC5 civs should have the colonyship design, probably even TC4.
Colony ships were tied to the type of minor. ExpandingMinors would have 2 or 3 designs, DevelopingMinors 1 or 2, MinorPowers none. Now irrelevant since minors will not expand.

An idea would be that TCn could have n-1 research labs at the start.
IIRC I made it n labs :wink: Might have been n-1 though, can't recall.
Now that I think of it though, I might just have capped it in the AI colony management code, and not in the homesystem generation code... will have to check!

And perhaps there should be a research muliplier for each TC.
You mean whether the minors are independent or member/subjugated?
That would compound with the max number of labs, and number of terraformed planets. Might become too harsh?

SubjugatonMultiplier could be either 0.5 or 0.75 or somthing like that
Yep. For Intel too, I'd say.
User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Commander
Lieutenant-Commander
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt »

Iceman wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 8:22 pm That would compound with the max number of labs, and number of terraformed planets.
Why is it the max number and not the currently active number of labs? And why the number of planets?
Might become too harsh?
Well so the idea behin the TCMultiplier would be that non-technical civs would not only have less research at the start, but also during the whole game.
You mean whether the minors are independent or member/subjugated?
Yes so it would be 1 for independent and member, but 0.5 or 0.75 in case of subjugation.
Yep. For Intel too, I'd say.
Oh yes very well.
Colony ships were tied to the type of minor. ExpandingMinors would have 2 or 3 designs, DevelopingMinors 1 or 2, MinorPowers none. Now irrelevant since minors will not expand.
Oh so there was the idea to have the minors expand as well? Well if they will be able to build colony ships, actually why not..? So some of the TC5 might also be expanding and TC4 could just terraform thier own system.
User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Commander
Lieutenant-Commander
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by erazortt »

Somehow related: In the game I just started I have the Trill with their "Research Committee" needing 260 energy, which are however in a two planet system of 160 max pop. I think that higher tech civs should also have higher min number of planets.

Is there actually a "cheat" to reveal the whole map to help for debugging?
Iceman
Admiral
Admiral
Posts: 3296
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: Minor races and terraforming

Post by Iceman »

erazortt wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 8:52 pm Somehow related: In the game I just started I have the Trill with their "Research Committee" needing 260 energy, which are however in a two planet system of 160 max pop. I think that higher tech civs should also have higher min number of planets.
Some of the homesystems are canon, but most are somewhat random.
You are correct, that would help a lot with balancing the minors and their tech. It's not easy to come up with 170 homesystems, and balance them. Any help with that is obviously welcome!
I tried to make a few tweaks here and there whenever I spotted something that could be improved, but after taking up coding the game, time was scarce to give much needed love to the database... some changes to the code (terraforming) and to the database itself have also made it need that attention.
For instance, I recently increased the energy cost of a few minor race buildings, so that you'd have less pop for research and intel PFs - again in an effort to make you focus on those types in your native colonies. But there's way too many minors, way too many buildings, way too much stuff to balance properly. :neutral:

Is there actually a "cheat" to reveal the whole map to help for debugging?
Yep. F12 will lift the FoW. It's in the F9 Keybindings list. Only works for SP, of course. :wink:

Last night I was trying to get the Intel screen to show you info on all the empires - a cheat, sure, but the Intel screen is not yet working anyway. It'd be useful to assess the progress of the AI empires relative to your own. Couldn't make it work though.


Why is it the max number and not the currently active number of labs? And why the number of planets?
Because the AI would activate the inactive labs :wink:
And because the more planets, the more pop.

Well so the idea behin the TCMultiplier would be that non-technical civs would not only have less research at the start, but also during the whole game.
Yes, but you want them to progress still.

Here's an example. For example, the Capellans, a TC1/Primitive minor civ. They have a huge system. Before terraforming was implemented, all homesystems (major and minor) would start fully terraformed. The Capellans were a powerhouse! So to curb that "randomness" related to homesystem size, I capped the number of labs each minor could have according to their TC. Notice that the lower tech minors already would start with a lower max pop %, but in such large systems that wasn't much of a solution.
With terraforming implemented, everything needs to be reviewed. Like already mentioned, a few tweaks have been made, but still a lot of work is needed I'm sure. Clearing out starting PFs was kinda like starting with a clean slate. The colony management AI does a rather decent job at building a balanced configuration (needed food and energy, intel vs terrorism, and rest in industry and research - with bias towards indusry if building anything or research if not).

Oh so there was the idea to have the minors expand as well? Well if they will be able to build colony ships, actually why not..? So some of the TC5 might also be expanding and TC4 could just terraform thier own system.
That was just some crazy idea. :wink: No, the game is not set to have minors colonize.
ExpandingMinors do have a larger AoI, DevelopingMinors a smaller one, and MinorPowers only their home sector. That hampers your expansion into their territory. Kind of a middle ground solution.
Post Reply

Return to “Supremacy”