Minor race advancement

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

Moderators: thunderchero, Iceman

User avatar
RedTiger
Cadet 1st Year
Cadet 1st Year
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:19 pm

Minor race advancement

Post by RedTiger » Thu May 21, 2020 2:18 am

There is a new Bug with the 20200519 release. In Systems that you gain by membership all farmes/industry/power/research/database are not upgradeable. The option for an upgrade is missing in the building list.

Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1528
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman » Thu May 21, 2020 4:04 am

Hey RedTiger
That's not so much a bug as a "feature". I made minors only be able to build the generic PFs, and the empires' PFs only buildable in their native colonies. It has that effect though.
When you member a minor that is of a higher tech level, you should be able to upgrade some more though.

The reason for this change was twofold:
- it's kind of odd to have say the Klingon hunting grounds in minor race homesystems, and upgrading regular farms to those... or the Dominion processing plants
- it's also kind of odd to have a Primitive or Developed minor race suddenly able to operate high level facilities (labs, intel...), out of the blue

It also keeps many of those systems from being much better than your own native colonies, especially like mentioned above those lower TL minor races. Notice that it doesn't affect taxes, just production, which is what minors should be contributing with (and their special buildings).

I'm open to changing it back, if you guys find it to be a bad change.

User avatar
Malioc
Ensign
Ensign
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 6:27 am

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Malioc » Sat May 23, 2020 11:04 am

Iceman wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:04 am
Hey RedTiger
That's not so much a bug as a "feature". I made minors only be able to build the generic PFs, and the empires' PFs only buildable in their native colonies. It has that effect though.
When you member a minor that is of a higher tech level, you should be able to upgrade some more though.

The reason for this change was twofold:
- it's kind of odd to have say the Klingon hunting grounds in minor race homesystems, and upgrading regular farms to those... or the Dominion processing plants
- it's also kind of odd to have a Primitive or Developed minor race suddenly able to operate high level facilities (labs, intel...), out of the blue

It also keeps many of those systems from being much better than your own native colonies, especially like mentioned above those lower TL minor races. Notice that it doesn't affect taxes, just production, which is what minors should be contributing with (and their special buildings).

I'm open to changing it back, if you guys find it to be a bad change.
That explains one issue in my last post. ;-)

I like the idea, that Hunting Grounds don't involve to Processing Plant. Although I'd prefer that you can still upgrade on their style, based on your tech level.
To keep them stuck means they can't learn. And why wouldn't Vulcans or even Selay not evolve while Klingons do.

The old BotF really had a problem with overpowered Minors. At the moment the game is much more balanced as BotF was. Doesn't mean it couldn't use further work, of course. ;-)

Furthermore I like, that keeping Minors becomes more challenging. But the challenge should be entertaining somehow. When I have to spend additional credits it additional rather MM.
It would be different when Minor loyalty depend on morale or certain challenges (like building warships for "Warlikes", focus on research for "Scientists", focus on Intel (sneaky), trade routes(mercantile)). The latter would force the player to use Minor colonies in a certain way, kinda making them worth less.
Also, free Isolists could deny building ships (no shipyard buildable). Naturalists could be limited to few building.

At some point it may be "better" to conquer and enslave a Minor, forcing them to your style and balancing low morale with terror buildings, than to member them and having them be happy under their own rules.

User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by erazortt » Sat May 23, 2020 1:22 pm

Malioc wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:04 am
At some point it may be "better" to conquer and enslave a Minor, forcing them to your style and balancing low morale with terror buildings, than to member them and having them be happy under their own rules.
I must say that exactly this is something I find very charming. If you want them to be happy they must live under thier own rules, with their own identity. If you want to press every last bit of productivity out of them you must conquer them. That sounds a lot like what I would think the realpolitik of a space fairing nation would. :up:

However, what happens once the minor joins the empire, with time progressing will one be able to upgrade thier buildings using thier upgrades? So will a "Type 3 Farming Center" of a minor race be at some point in time be upgradeable to "Type 4 Farming Center"?
Last edited by erazortt on Sat May 23, 2020 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1528
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman » Sat May 23, 2020 5:57 pm

erazortt wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:22 pm
Malioc wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:04 am
At some point it may be "better" to conquer and enslave a Minor, forcing them to your style and balancing low morale with terror buildings, than to member them and having them be happy under their own rules.
I must say that exactly this is something I find very charming. If you want them to be happy they must live under thier own rules, with their own identity. If you want to press every last bit of productivity out of them you must conquer them. That sounds a lot like what I would think the realpolitik of a space fairing nation would. :up:

However, what happens once the minor joins the empire, with time progressing will one be able to upgrade thier buildings using thier upgrades? So will a "Type 3 Farming Center" of a minor race be at some point in time be upgradeable to "Type 4 Farming Center"?
Totally agree with the 1st part. That's what we should be aiming for. There must be a counter-balance between the 2 choices. Membership has the advantage of allowing you access to their special building(s) [and they can keep a garrison in the colony, if not Peaceful or Pacifist - I've added a Garrison Training bonus in 20200521 to allow having a garrison in Subjugated colonies (at a Morale cost, ofc), but it's not implemented yet].

Re the upgrades, right now they should once you get access to Type 4 Farming Center tech in some way - from another minor, that is. But that needs to be tested.
We should probably let minors continue benefitting from their own research once membered(/subjugated?).

User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by erazortt » Sat May 23, 2020 6:15 pm

Iceman wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:57 pm
We should probably let minors continue benefitting from their own research once membered(/subjugated?).
I would really like to see them to be able to upgrade all their facilities also after joining based on their own research. So that they evolve further.
For them getting subjugated is really an interesting question. But I guess one could argue that they should progress slower, perhaps a subjugation multiplier (0.75 or 0.5?) for research?

Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1528
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman » Sun May 24, 2020 3:25 pm

erazortt wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:15 pm
Iceman wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:57 pm
We should probably let minors continue benefitting from their own research once membered(/subjugated?).
I would really like to see them to be able to upgrade all their facilities also after joining based on their own research. So that they evolve further.
For them getting subjugated is really an interesting question. But I guess one could argue that they should progress slower, perhaps a subjugation multiplier (0.75 or 0.5?) for research?
I'm currently looking into the 1st part.

The 2nd part is kind of done. Kind of, because I implemented this for empires - meaning, subjugated colonies only contribute 1/2 their research and intel outputs to the empire's totals.
Now that I read this again I guess you meant the modifier was for the minor itself?

User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by erazortt » Sun May 24, 2020 3:28 pm

Iceman wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 3:25 pm
Now that I read this again I guess you meant the modifier was for the minor itself?
Yes, I mean the minor should have its own research counted into its own research points account unlocking upgrades to its own native buildings. More details down in this reply I just posted in the other thread (viewtopic.php?f=300&t=3942&p=52493#p52493).
However the subjugation multiplier itself should only count into the empires research and not into the own research of the minor.

User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by erazortt » Sun May 24, 2020 3:43 pm

So let me make an examle:

Lets say the minor has a research capability of 200 per round and has reached 10000 research points when it was subjugated.
As an example, lets further say that at 12000 the minor will reach a new biotech level and get an upgrade to its farming facility.
These 200 research points per round will count as following:
200*0.5=100 research points per round for the empire which subjgated the minor
200*1=200 research points per round for the minor itself

Thus after 10 rounds the minor will reach its own new biotech level unlocking the upgrade to the farming.
The empire will now have to possibility to upgrade the framing facilities of the minor.

Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1528
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman » Sun May 24, 2020 4:22 pm

Ahh, too late, already implemented it with .5 for both :razz:
So your suggestion would be that somehow the minor would hide their full research from their overlord's eyes?

User avatar
Malioc
Ensign
Ensign
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 6:27 am

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Malioc » Mon May 25, 2020 5:37 am

erazortt wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 3:43 pm
So let me make an examle:

Lets say the minor has a research capability of 200 per round and has reached 10000 research points when it was subjugated.
As an example, lets further say that at 12000 the minor will reach a new biotech level and get an upgrade to its farming facility.
These 200 research points per round will count as following:
200*0.5=100 research points per round for the empire which subjgated the minor
200*1=200 research points per round for the minor itself

Thus after 10 rounds the minor will reach its own new biotech level unlocking the upgrade to the farming.
The empire will now have to possibility to upgrade the framing facilities of the minor.
The idea is cool. But when they have to carry their technological evolution by themselves, this could hold them extremely down at the later stages of the game.

A Minor colony sometimes with 1 or 2 classes below empire standard has charme. Vulcan and Bynar staying below the empires tech level however feels weird.

User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 6:24 am

Malioc wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:37 am
The idea is cool. But when they have to carry their technological evolution by themselves, this could hold them extremely down at the later stages of the game.
A Minor colony sometimes with 1 or 2 classes below empire standard has charme. Vulcan and Bynar staying below the empires tech level however feels weird.
Yes but if they are not being membered at all they will research on their own anyhow, so that in the later game they would lag behind empires as well. And my issue is that currently minors do not evolve at all after joining (no new building upgrades). So following you argument the current situation is much worse then what I'm suggesting. (more answer to this following in the next post)
Iceman wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:22 pm
Ahh, too late, already implemented it with .5 for both :razz:
One could argue that this is reasonable as well.
Iceman wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:22 pm
So your suggestion would be that somehow the minor would hide their full research from their overlord's eyes?
That would be an idea, but this is not necessary. What is important for me is that membered minor races would continue to evolve at all. And I would suggest this to happen based on the research of their own (active) research labs. The research they generate counts into the empires research points, but does also counts into their own research points, which unlock their own native buildings.
Last edited by erazortt on Mon May 25, 2020 7:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 6:50 am

Malioc wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:37 am
A Minor colony sometimes with 1 or 2 classes below empire standard has charme. Vulcan and Bynar staying below the empires tech level however feels weird.
Let me answer to this separatly. So what you are actually suggesting is that there is an interplay of the research, so that the minors research is being boosted when it joins an empire. That does sound nice!
I guess this could also be done as an extension to what I already suggest with the separate research points account of the minor. Namely one could say that the minros resarch is increased by the empires research to a degree which depends on its own TC (or: on total amount of RPs reached until the current round). Or the minor research could be depenent not on the current research of the empire but on the total research points reached. Simulating that a lower tech culture would learn from the a higher tech culture also if the higher tech culture does not research further, which is probably the most realistic approach.

Let me give an example how this could be realized.
variant a: RP/round of the minor depends on the RP/round of the empire scaled with the minors TC
variant b: RP/round of the minor depends on the RP/round of the empire scaled with the total RP reached by the empire
variant c: RP/round of the minor depends on the total RP reached by the empire scaled by the factor from b and dived by some number, lets say 100

Situation before the minor race joins the empire:
Empire (TC6): 50000 RPs in total, 500 RPs per round
Minor (TC4): 10000 RPs in total, 100 RPs per round

After joining:
Empire: 500 RP/round own research + 100 RP/round minor research = 600 RP/round
Minor variant a: TC4/TC6=0.67. Thus 100 RP/round own research + 500*0.67 RP/round empire research = 435 RP/round
Minor variant b: 10000/50000=0.2. Thus 100 RP/round own research + 500*0.2 RP/round empire research = 200 RP/round
Minor variant c: 50000-10000=40000. Thus 100 RP/round own research + 40000*0.2/100 research diffusion from empire = 180 RP/round

After subjugation and using icemans 0.5 factor on both, own and empire research:
Empire: 500 RP/round own research + 100*0.5 RP/round minor research = 550 RP/round
Minor variant a: TC4/TC6=0.67. Thus 100*0.5 RP/round own research + 500*0.67*0.5 RP/round empire research = 217 RP/round
Minor variant b: 10000/50000=0.2. Thus 100*0.5 RP/round own research + 500*0.2*0.5 RP/round empire research = 100 RP/round
Minor variant c: 50000-10000=40000. Thus 100*0.5 RP/round own research + 40000*0.2*0.5/100 research diffusion from empire = 90 RP/round

After subjugation using my 0.5 for empire and 1 factor for own research):
Empire: 500 RP/round own research + 100*0.5 RP/round minor research = 550 RP/round
Minor variant a: TC4/TC6=0.67. Thus 100 RP/round own research + 500*0.67*0.5 RP/round empire research = 267 RP/round
Minor variant b: 10000/50000=0.2. Thus 100 RP/round own research + 500*0.2*0.5 RP/round empire research = 150 RP/round
Minor variant c: 50000-10000=40000. Thus 100 RP/round own research + 40000*0.2*0.5/100 research diffusion from empire = 140 RP/round

Of all these I think I prefer variant b.
Last edited by erazortt on Mon May 25, 2020 10:18 am, edited 6 times in total.

User avatar
erazortt
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Lieutenant-Junior Grade
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 7:28 am

Oh and when I say empire research I mean research of the empire itself disregarding the research of the other minor races that joined to the empire. I would let these completely outside of the calculation. So that the research of one minor does not add to the research of another minor.

Iceman
Rear-Admiral
Rear-Admiral
Posts: 1528
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 am

Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman » Mon May 25, 2020 9:17 am

erazortt wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:24 am
Iceman wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:22 pm
Ahh, too late, already implemented it with .5 for both :razz:
One could argue that this is reasonable as well.
Already changed it to .5 for the empire and full for the minor. :wink:

erazortt wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:24 am
Iceman wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:22 pm
So your suggestion would be that somehow the minor would hide their full research from their overlord's eyes?
That would be an idea, but this is not necessary. What is important for me is that membered minor races would continue to evolve at all. And I would suggest this to happen based on the research of their own (active) research labs. The research they generate counts into the empires research points, but does also counts into their own research points, which unlock their own native buildings.
It was kind of a joke, but also asking if that was your intention. Like, the empire only gets half of the full research because the minor deliberately hides the other half (which they keep for themselves) - would they be able to get away with it?

Oh and when I say empire research I mean research of the empire itself disregarding the research of the other minor races that joined to the empire. I would let these completely outside of the calculation. So that the research of one minor does not add to the research of another minor.
Of course! That wasn't even a possibility.

Post Reply

Return to “Supremacy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users