Minor race advancement

[Iceman]

I just would prefer it, if diplomacy doesn't work with credits alone. ;-)

Totally agree, and I think everyone else does too.
But that's why we have envoys, and events that affect Regard, and Buildings that affect Regard, etc.
Terraforming a civ's planets, having pacts and treaties, colonizing close to the borders of other civs, raiding and assaulting systems of civs you have good relations with, biological attacks on colonies, attacking colony ships, surveying in another civ's territory, those are forms of making diplomacy - good and bad diplomacy.

Some other things that might still be implemented include being able to offer/request resources (dilithium, etc) in the diplo screen, using medical ships to help other civs with some kind of affliction / health issue.

[Malioc]

Very true. Not really kinda, there's actually no difference. Play the Klingons, and you have the +25% bonus oh, there's the morale thingie...

In original BotF the speed of ship building was decided by having the whole systems production involved.
I like the separation of shipyard and production MUCH better. =)

But you get more tax credits with the 370, and more fleet support, and it contributes more to your Domination VC, and produces a larger AoI Trade-off.

True. Still, it's not enough for Legat Malioc, builder of planets, drainer of life and crusher of cultures. ;-)

I thought we were discussing PFs and not research anymore - as research has already been established that the minors will still conduct?
And they *did* keep some technology to themselves, especially military tech, like siege engines and such. It was what allowed them to maintain their status as an entity you shouldn't mess with. Other empires like Parthia, although powerful in their own way, couldn't really expand/conquer roman provinces because they just couldn't assault fortified cities. I mean, they could try

Yep, mostly production. But what would be the equivalent of mass industry in the Roman Empire?

You're right, that Rome kept crucial advantages hidden. But facilities of farming, production, etc. can hardly be kept secret. People trade and travel. Given some time, the knowledge that gives productive advantages always spread.

Well, maybe in space you could slow it down. That's why there is hardly one right answer. =D

We're talking upgrading a whole nation here, not an individual. In which provinces of the empire did they restructure the entire production infrastructure? Order was kept by their legions, with auxiliary units (always from *other* provinces AFAIK), and the province capital would have some structures to impose the roman way, but the provinces themselves would be kept largely the same.

Ahh, crap, I'm being called for dinner...

I hope, it was worth the interruption. ;-)

It always starts with individuals learing or moving to new places. Then the knowledge spreads, and suddenly Romes culture, skill and philosophy is the backbone of whole Europe. And, much later, America and further.

It's just up to the occupier to speed things (just build own structures) up or slow it down (use old technique to keep the minor down). Since Supremacy timeline evolves over generations, I'm more in favor of a mechanism that leads to quicker adaption. ;-)

Thanks for sharing some historical discussion! =)

[Malioc]

I just would prefer it, if diplomacy doesn't work with credits alone. ;-)

Totally agree, and I think everyone else does too.
But that's why we have envoys, and events that affect Regard, and Buildings that affect Regard, etc.
Terraforming a civ's planets, having pacts and treaties, colonizing close to the borders of other civs, raiding and assaulting systems of civs you have good relations with, biological attacks on colonies, attacking colony ships, surveying in another civ's territory, those are forms of making diplomacy - good and bad diplomacy.

Some other things that might still be implemented include being able to offer/request resources (dilithium, etc) in the diplo screen, using medical ships to help other civs with some kind of affliction / health issue.

Interesting to read how much effects diplomacy! =D

A couple of things are obvious (attacking friends: bad, attacking enemies: good).

I didn't realize terraforming without invitation gets you positive reputation. And exploring enemy space so far has never gotten me into trouble (at least not in Supremacy).
Colonizing close to borders should create conflict, but I guess, that's currently missing (with WarDecs).
Malus for attacking colony ships is nice.
Biological/Biogenic weapons would be really cool (even though I will probably not use them again...)

The other stuff sounds also good. I always build health centre in hope this boosts my pop growth. But no medical ships. They have a lot potential though. =)

[Malioc]

Haven't tried that (subjugation) in Supremacy so far. In BotF the conquered worlds had always low morale (except with Cardassians), so I assumed something similar here.

The intended Vash-backstory aside, yes, relics are interesting. And history is great. =)

Should be similar. If you don't do anything about it, you'll take a hit of -1 morale every turn. If it drops low enough, the colony might rebel (this is restricted to non-native colonies though, as they return to their original owner - whether it's a minor race or a major race).
But once your morale goes "negative", you can build the unrest order - Martial Law, whatever. These work exactly the same way as in BotF.

You lose -1 morale for how long? Even after a nice round of inquisition?

It does. If you don't take care of it. And while you don't get a +1 morale in the colony to counter the subjugation penalty.
Like already mentioned, I also added (yesterday) a 50% penalty to research and intel output in subjugated colonies - which is independent of morale level.

50% permanent? Seems a bit much. But lets try it. =)

Once you hit them with a Culling or a Tribunal, they tend to see the light.

You just have to talk to the people to get them reasonable.
Preferably about what will happen with their children. =)

[Iceman]

In original BotF the speed of ship building was decided by having the whole systems production involved.
I like the separation of shipyard and production MUCH better. =)

I meant that shipbuilding in Supremacy is the same in subjugated and in native colonies, as it is not modified by morale.

True. Still, it's not enough for Legat Malioc, builder of planets, drainer of life and crusher of cultures. ;-)

IYep, mostly production. But what would be the equivalent of mass industry in the Roman Empire?

I'd say construction, and military hardware crafting. Legions had a significant role in construction (and de-construction ), they were truly an awesome concept. The whole roman military, in fact.

You're right, that Rome kept crucial advantages hidden. But facilities of farming, production, etc. can hardly be kept secret. People trade and travel. Given some time, the knowledge that gives productive advantages always spread.

True. Though you don't necessarily adopt, but rather adapt - if possible.
Not all provinces flourished under roman rule, especially the fringes. Or only smallish parts did.

I hope, it was worth the interruption. ;-)

Yea, it was. Dinner outside, in the warmth of the late afternoon, that was revigorating.

It always starts with individuals learing or moving to new places. Then the knowledge spreads, and suddenly Romes culture, skill and philosophy is the backbone of whole Europe. And, much later, America and further.

Thank the gods for that!

It's just up to the occupier to speed things (just build own structures) up or slow it down (use old technique to keep the minor down). Since Supremacy timeline evolves over generations, I'm more in favor of a mechanism that leads to quicker adaption. ;-)

Hehe. With what we've been discussing, I think we will find a way to make this work better.

Thanks for sharing some historical discussion! =)

Thank you!
The whole discussion is great, both the historical part, and the game related part. Keeping history in mind when designing a game is very important IMO, even if just to keep gameplay feel "intuitive" in some way.

[Iceman]

I didn't realize terraforming without invitation gets you positive reputation.

For now, terraforming improves Regard, period. But I have plans to include requiring an Open Borders pact to avoid a penalty (instead of a bonus), especially for Isolationist minors.

And exploring enemy space so far has never gotten me into trouble (at least not in Supremacy).

That's still ToDo. If you don't have an OB pact, you shouldn't be exploring around in someone else's backyard.

Colonizing close to borders should create conflict, but I guess, that's currently missing (with WarDecs).

Well, it decreases Regard, and DoWs depend on Regard. So, abuse it and you might be a candidate for a WarDec

Malus for attacking colony ships is nice.

*That* is a serious candidate for a WarDec. If you destroy it, it's almost certain you'll get one.

Biological/Biogenic weapons would be really cool (even though I will probably not use them again...)

These are supposed to be a fast/cheap way to, hmm, make a fresh start.
What, you didn't like draining all that life away, Legat Malioc?

The other stuff sounds also good. I always build health centre in hope this boosts my pop growth. But no medical ships. They have a lot potential though. =)

It does. Not by much, but in some systems with really low growth rate, the HC will make the difference.

[Iceman]

You lose -1 morale for how long? Even after a nice round of inquisition?

4eva!
Yep, Inquisition will take you to positive morale, but if you can't hold it there (have at least a +1 source of morale, whether in that colony or empire-wide)...

50% permanent? Seems a bit much. But lets try it. =)

Probably is. But the intent is to make it difficult to use those colonies as (main) sources of research and intel - you should use native and member colonies for that. These can still be used to generate credits and to build ships.

You just have to talk to the people to get them reasonable.
Preferably about what will happen with their children. =)

Ooohh, that's evil. But I guess people deserve it.

[Iceman]

For now, terraforming improves Regard, period. But I have plans to include requiring an Open Borders pact to avoid a penalty (instead of a bonus), especially for Isolationist minors.

Done, for Isolationists - you must be at least Friendly with them (OB) or you'll get a penalty instead.
Not sure if this should apply to all civs too? (with Iso's getting a bigger penalty)

[Malioc]

I meant that shipbuilding in Supremacy is the same in subjugated and in native colonies, as it is not modified by morale.

Well, I like that.
However... theoretically it could happen, that native terrorists of a planet you have honored with your vision and firm hand, may not understand the wisdom of your endeavours and sabotage a ship (losing time and resources).

Is something like that planned?

I'd say construction, and military hardware crafting. Legions had a significant role in construction (and de-construction    ), they were truly an awesome concept. The whole roman military, in fact.

Definitely. They had a remarkably modern concept of warfare and military.

But I would also include the civil costructions. Stone streets, city architecture and supply of material. IMO PF is the whole representation of crafting. Which for the most they shared freely (inside the empire). ;-)

True. Though you don't necessarily adopt, but rather adapt - if possible.
Not all provinces flourished under roman rule, especially the fringes. Or only smallish parts did.

They rarely do. ;-)

Economic evolution usually starts in certain areas, who are chosen by location, circumstance or luck. Later it triggles down and others follow. Or sometimes not, when they are just used for resources and get no wealth-generating business. =)

Yea, it was. Dinner outside, in the warmth of the late afternoon, that was revigorating. 

I hope the Gagh was alive. ;-)
That's the nice part of vacation. I'm much more outside again, then of the last months. And the weather plays along for the Planter of Despair. ;-)

Thank the gods for that! 

True. Thank you, almighty science gods! And Bacchus! ;-)

Hehe. With what we've been discussing, I think we will find a way to make this work better.

Thank you! 

The whole discussion is great, both the historical part, and the game related part. Keeping history in mind when designing a game is very important IMO, even if just to keep gameplay feel "intuitive" in some way.

I'm sure.
And I totally agree. It's all about the mix of authentic and fun to play. =)

ST has such a rich world.

For now, terraforming improves Regard, period. But I have plans to include requiring an Open Borders pact to avoid a penalty (instead of a bonus), especially for Isolationist minors.

I agree. Didn't know it would boost reputation though.

Well, it decreases Regard, and DoWs depend on Regard. So, abuse it and you might be a candidate for a WarDec 

That's good. So far they were much too tolerant with me. 2-3 fields close to ones space is an insult.
One thing would be nice though: If the angry rivals offers your to give up the colony/space instead of attacking. Like Cardassians and Sheliak did for instance.

But that may be too complicated too code for a relative small reward in gameplay.

*That* is a serious candidate for a WarDec. If you destroy it, it's almost certain you'll get one.

These are supposed to be a fast/cheap way to, hmm, make a fresh start. 

What, you didn't like draining all that life away, Legat Malioc? 

I understood it that way, that even other races may shun you for it. Killing innocent civilians is not very popular.
Like biogenic weapons, etc. this should not just get the anger of the victim.

Btw: Which tech style would you continue when Romulans resettle a world cleaned of Klingon vermin? ;-)
You have Hunting Grounds there, but no one left to from it.

I think, this is an extremely interesting tactic though.

As for your last comment... The world becomes a grey place, when all what is left to torture is your own people. ;-)
TBH, I usually play pretty nice and try to member whenever possible. Even with Cardassians most of the time I ended up with the Bajorans as equal. - Which is kinda sad, really. ;-)

[Malioc]

It does. Not by much, but in some systems with really low growth rate, the HC will make the difference.

And are there other benefits of good health and medical ships? I had an occasional plague, but only for one turn and they happened mostly on big worlds, where the number of dead was reproduced within 1-2 rounds.

In short, nothing to worry about.

Probably is. But the intent is to make it difficult to use those colonies as (main) sources of research and intel - you should use native and member colonies for that. These can still be used to generate credits and to build ships.

Mhm... I get where you're coming from.
I just don't know, if it will help balancing.

I like the idea of a small punishment though. Even a permanent one (10-20%).
Or - similar to member - 50% at the beginning and later only 10%.

Done, for Isolationists - you must be at least Friendly with them (OB) or you'll get a penalty instead.
Not sure if this should apply to all civs too? (with Iso's getting a bigger penalty)

I'd say yes.
With Isolists: penaly > reward

Does the penalty happen at the beginning and reward when a planet is finished?

[Iceman]

However... theoretically it could happen, that native terrorists of a planet you have honored with your vision and firm hand, may not understand the wisdom of your endeavours and sabotage a ship (losing time and resources).

Is something like that planned?

One of the (not implemented yet) random events is a terrorist attack on a shipyard, destroying a ship under construction.
Restrict this to subjugated systems, maybe?

But I would also include the civil costructions. Stone streets, city architecture and supply of material. IMO PF is the whole representation of crafting. Which for the most they shared freely (inside the empire). ;-)

I meant civil construction, exactly what you listed.
But the legions were as good at construction as at warfare, of course.

I hope the Gagh was alive. ;-)

ROTFLMAO!
Yeah, but unfortunately there was an embargo on the bloodwine trade route... someone must be punished for that. Trade Guild Strikes?!

That's the nice part of vacation. I'm much more outside again, then of the last months. And the weather plays along for the Planter of Despair. ;-)

Yes, the downside being that covid cases are going up again...

True. Thank you, almighty science gods! And Bacchus! ;-)

Ahh, so you're a Bacchus worshipper. We have some excellent wines around here, and I really don't care much for it. Go figure.

For now, terraforming improves Regard, period. But I have plans to include requiring an Open Borders pact to avoid a penalty (instead of a bonus), especially for Isolationist minors.

I agree. Didn't know it would boost reputation though.

It does. Last night I was watching the Romulans terraform the entire Ventax system (which made the Ventaxians' research skyrocket, which was what I was monitoring), and thinking - I really need to get the AI to use diplomacy...

That's good. So far they were much too tolerant with me. 2-3 fields close to ones space is an insult.
One thing would be nice though: If the angry rivals offers your to give up the colony/space instead of attacking. Like Cardassians and Sheliak did for instance.

But that may be too complicated too code for a relative small reward in gameplay.

Right now you'll only get the penalty if you colonize right next to their border. But at some point disputed territory will also affect relations.
Building stations close to the border should also be a source of discomfort, will need to implement that some time.
As for ceding disputed territory, that's in the plans, yes. Probably not colonies, as that's a huge can of worms I don't think we want to open, but uncolonized systems or empty sectors. The code is not ready for that yet, though.

I understood it that way, that even other races may shun you for it. Killing innocent civilians is not very popular.
Like biogenic weapons, etc. this should not just get the anger of the victim.

Yes, using bio weapons is a no-no, especially for the Feds. Everyone and their dog will hate you for it.
Bombardment also affects relations with others, and raiding too, to a lesser extent (though I'm considering removing it).

Btw: Which tech style would you continue when Romulans resettle a world cleaned of Klingon vermin? ;-)
You have Hunting Grounds there, but no one left to from it.

Well, those sneaky little bastards can eat the plants from the empty hunting grounds I guess. And choke on them.

TBH, I usually play pretty nice and try to member whenever possible. Even with Cardassians most of the time I ended up with the Bajorans as equal. - Which is kinda sad, really. ;-)

Sacrilege!!! You're not offering prayers to Bacchus often enough.

We may need to make subjugation more interesting/benefitial for the Klingons and Cardassians? Not sure.

And are there other benefits of good health and medical ships? I had an occasional plague, but only for one turn and they happened mostly on big worlds, where the number of dead was reproduced within 1-2 rounds.

IIRC it also increases the size of your food reserves, and it decreases casualties in invasions and bombardments.

Mhm... I get where you're coming from.
I just don't know, if it will help balancing.

Maybe the ideas about making membership harder to keep could help.

I like the idea of a small punishment though. Even a permanent one (10-20%).
Or - similar to member - 50% at the beginning and later only 10%.

You get full research from member colonies. The penalty only applies to subjugated colonies.

I'd say yes.
With Isolists: penaly > reward

I plan to add a warning dialog when you give the terra order without an OB.

Does the penalty happen at the beginning and reward when a planet is finished?

Right now they are only triggered when each planet is finished being terraformed. But you do have a point. The warning dialog will be shown when the order is given.

[Malioc]

One of the (not implemented yet) random events is a terrorist attack on a shipyard, destroying a ship under construction.
Restrict this to subjugated systems, maybe?

Or to systems with low morale. Yeah, makes sense.

ROTFLMAO!
Yeah, but unfortunately there was an embargo on the bloodwine trade route... someone must be punished for that. Trade Guild Strikes?!

Hehehe. Damn Ferengi, want to increase Bloodwine prices. Lets see how their ears look on sticks! ;-)

Yes, the downside being that covid cases are going up again...

Jep. Sadly the good statistics here will lead to people caring less. Prevention dilemma. ;-)

Luckily we're currently in a vacation flat owned by friends. Pretty secure here.

Ahh, so you're a Bacchus worshipper. We have some excellent wines around here, and I really don't care much for it. Go figure.

Prefer Gin Tonic, but hey, we in the Federation don't discriminate.

I'm a drunk, not a doctor. ;-)

It does. Last night I was watching the Romulans terraform the entire Ventax system (which made the Ventaxians' research skyrocket, which was what I was monitoring), and thinking - I really need to get the AI to use diplomacy...

Right now you'll only get the penalty if you colonize right next to their border. But at some point disputed territory will also affect relations.
Building stations close to the border should also be a source of discomfort, will need to implement that some time.
As for ceding disputed territory, that's in the plans, yes. Probably not colonies, as that's a huge can of worms I don't think we want to open, but uncolonized systems or empty sectors. The code is not ready for that yet, though.

I like that. Come back to that later.

Yes, using bio weapons is a no-no, especially for the Feds. Everyone and their dog will hate you for it.
Bombardment also affects relations with others, and raiding too, to a lesser extent (though I'm considering removing it).

I think, raiding should only be have negative effect on the victim. Or maybe also their allies.
However, as a neutral party I would probably judge factions who methodically kill innocents (destroying colony ships, bio weapons, full bombardment until all people are dead).

Well, those sneaky little bastards can eat the plants from the empty hunting grounds I guess. And choke on them.

Hehehe. Romulan dominance is merely logical. =D
Personally, I'd like the idea, that the facilities are changed to the new style, but this to be much more expensive standard the normal updagre (+100%?)

Sacrilege!!! You're not offering prayers to Bacchus often enough.

We may need to make subjugation more interesting/benefitial for the Klingons and Cardassians? Not sure.

Can't judge on that yet. ;-)
I'd definitely try reach a good balance. Subjugation should pay off less than membership, but imo it should still be possible to create strong colonies with time.

IIRC it also increases the size of your food reserves, and it decreases casualties in invasions and bombardments.

Interesting. Food could also be interesting for developed colonies. So far I assumed, that hc are only useful for growing colonies.
I ignore invasions and bombardments, because (as much as shield generator and orbital batteries) I only energize in case of an attack.

Maybe the ideas about making membership harder to keep could help.

Would be cool. =)

You get full research from member colonies. The penalty only applies to subjugated colonies.

I refered to the idea, that member colonies give only 50% of the research, until they matched the parent empires tech level. ;-)

I plan to add a warning dialog when you give the terra order without an OB.

Right now they are only triggered when each planet is finished being terraformed. But you do have a point. The warning dialog will be shown when the order is given.

Very good, sir. =)


Today I had some time to think a bit about the WarDec. I have an idea that I wanted to pitch to you, chancelor Iceman. ;-)

For now I only adress WarDecs between the major factions. IMO a WarDec should happen as a consequence of a complex complication with WarDec-Points (WDP) of the most important logical factors. The idea is, that a faction declares war on another in 2 cases:
I. When the "target" reached a certain WDP with the faction (e.g. 10), the faction declares war on it.
II. When the faction needs are a war in general, then they declare war on the faction (minor?) with the most WDP.


I. I've tried to list all factors, that should determine in such a calculation.

Primary Factors

1. Reputation: I guess, that one is already considered. ;-)
Also, it may involve different factors I name in the secondarys.
Even Klingons don't like to attack good friends. And even Federation gets violent when there is a big conflict. So, depending on the current reputation the following points would be calculated:

Lowering WDP:
Reputation 100%: Federation: -20, Klingons: -12, Romulans: -16, Cardassians: -12, Dominion: -16
over 90%: -15, -9, -12, -9, -12
over 75%: -10, -6, -8, -6, -8
over 50%: -5, -3, -4, -3, -4
Increasing WDP:
under 50%: 2, 5, 4, 5, 4
under 40%: 4, 10, 8, 10, 8
under 25%: 8, 12, 8, 12, 8

2. Perception of strength of the target: I think a WarDec should depend on how strong the other party is perceived. Even warloving folk will think twice about attacking an opponent, who ist 10 times as strong. The interesting thing here is, that this could be linked to Intelligence. Example:
You play Dominion. The Cardassians have 20 warships and investigate your strength. Now, your Intel is so much better, that you can counter-spy on them and feed them false information.
Case A: While you actually have 10 warships and 2 in docks, you'll fake Intel about 40 warships and 10 being in docks. In consequence the Cardassians would crap their pants and forget about their war plans. However, they will boost their fleet production in fear of your dominance.
Case B: While you actually have 30 warships waiting close by the border, you fake your weakness (Intel about 5 warships and 5 in docks). That can have multiple reasons: To lure the opponent in, get them attacking with only half the force, etc.

In reality this factor would lead to the realistic behavior, that warmongers attack the weaker opponents first and take their chances. Or at least what they perceive as a chance.

Force of the target more than 3 times as big as the faction: Federation: -12, Klingons: -6, Romulans: -12, Cardassians: -12, Dominion: -12
more than 2 times as big: -8, -4, -8, -8, -8
bigger than the faction: -4, -2, -4, -4, -4
smaller than the faction: 0, 4, 2, 4, 2
50% smaller than the faction: 0, 8, 4, 8, 4
75% smaller than the faction: 0, 16, 8, 16, 8

3. Need for expansion: The final big factor should be their current position. When there is enough space to settle, even aggressive factions may postbone a war in favor of building new colonies. Trapped, however, even the peaceful factions will be tempted to conquer.

When there are no "good" planets around for settlement, other factions (and minors) should automatically get additional WDP. Haven't thought deeper that matter though.


Secondary Factors

4. Own colony ship destroyed: 10

5. Different empires colony ship destroyed: 3, 3, 1, 1, 1

6. Use of biogenic (etc) weapons: 10, 8, 8, 6, 8

7. (Perceived) Intel action against your empire: 3, 4, 3, 3, 4

8. For each colony or space station close to the border:
right next to space: 1/2, 1, 1, 1, 1
1 field apart: 1/4, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2
2 fields apart: 1/8, 1/4, 1/4, 1/4, 1/4
+ double when there is a shipyard

9. Opportunity: When they lack Dilithium or Duranium, or there is a special juicy 350-pop-system close by, or a single unprotected colony is close to your empire (while the big part of the other faction is somehow far away), it should also give additional WDP. Less for Federation, but a lot for Klingon and Cardassians.


II. There is the old concept of eternal warfare: Others may want to attack and conquer you. Therefore you need a large enough military for defensive reason. However, when you have that expensive army, it's too expensive not to use. So you have to start a war.
That's how the warfaring factions (Klingons, Cardassians) could be pushed to attack minor. And also Dominion and Romulan. Factions start to build a fleet, maybe even pushed by stronger factions (out of fear to be dominated). And when they reached a certain, empire-specific number of ships, they will decide, THAT they have to declare war. And then WDP is taken to decide who the lucky winner is.

That's the short version of the idea I wanted to pitch. ;-)

[Iceman]

I ignore invasions and bombardments, because (as much as shield generator and orbital batteries) I only energize in case of an attack.

I'll take that as a challenge.

Today I had some time to think a bit about the WarDec. I have an idea that I wanted to pitch to you, chancelor Iceman. ;-)

That's the short version of the idea I wanted to pitch. ;-)

Uh, that's the *short* version?!

[Malioc]

Well, medium. Still incomplete, with minors and other details missing. ;-)

[Malioc]

Addition: The secondary factors should be temporary except for 8 and 9, which are momentary like the primarys. After 30 rounds most people will have probably forgotten the incident.

So, maybe, after 20 rounds the effect is only 50% and after 30 rounds gone. Except maybe for bio weapons, which is surely remembered longer.

10. Own scout ship destroyed: 2, 1, 1, 1, 1