Minor race advancement

Supremacy; support/discussion/questions

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erazortt
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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 9:53 am

Iceman wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:17 am
It was kind of a joke, but also asking if that was your intention. Like, the empire only gets half of the full research because the minor deliberately hides the other half (which they keep for themselves) - would they be able to get away with it?
Yeah I think they would! :mrgreen:
But actually my intention was mainly based on the fact that communication is impacted between parties of very unequal standing which in itself impacts research a lot. So I would see it less as a deliberate hiding but more of uneffectiveness due to social standing. While the research on native matters will probably not be impacted since there the people of this race have already knowlage about also without communication with the masters.

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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman » Mon May 25, 2020 10:11 am

Malioc wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:37 am
erazortt wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 3:43 pm
So let me make an examle:

Lets say the minor has a research capability of 200 per round and has reached 10000 research points when it was subjugated.
As an example, lets further say that at 12000 the minor will reach a new biotech level and get an upgrade to its farming facility.
These 200 research points per round will count as following:
200*0.5=100 research points per round for the empire which subjgated the minor
200*1=200 research points per round for the minor itself

Thus after 10 rounds the minor will reach its own new biotech level unlocking the upgrade to the farming.
The empire will now have to possibility to upgrade the framing facilities of the minor.
The idea is cool. But when they have to carry their technological evolution by themselves, this could hold them extremely down at the later stages of the game.

A Minor colony sometimes with 1 or 2 classes below empire standard has charme. Vulcan and Bynar staying below the empires tech level however feels weird.
I don't think you want the minors to be on the same level as you / benefit fom your full research, because what if they break free for whatever reason? (bribed away, agreement terminated, etc)
But yeah, some cases will be weird. The Vulcans, as already mentioned, always start at level 3 or 4 minimum, as do some others. Not the Bynars though.

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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 10:36 am

Actually thinking more of this issue I think I even prefer variant c.
What speaks for c is that it provides a somehow realistic approach, where a lower tech culture learns from a higher tech master, not only via direct research but also just by intercultural exchange. So there should be learning for the lower tech culture even when the higher tech culture does not further increase its knowledge since there is already enough to learn. (Oh and btw, the formula for c must be bounded towards 0, because it would produce negative values when the minor has a higher total of research points gathered than the empire).

And on the other hand there could also be the exact same argument in reverse when a lower tech empire members a higher level minor. In this case shouldn't the empire learn by the same process as well... just saying..

But as I said, it is important to first have the implementation of the research of membered minor races at all. Once this is there one can think of how this can be further refined.

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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman » Mon May 25, 2020 12:02 pm

Yes, I was about to mention minors of higher level - like if you member the Vulcans before you reach TL3.
And on the other hand there could also be the exact same argument in reverse when a lower tech empire members a higher level minor. In this case shouldn't the empire learn by the same process as well... just saying..
In this case you get their higher tech labs, which are already built :wink:

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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Malioc » Mon May 25, 2020 12:26 pm

In the above scenarios the technoligical gap between empire and minor gets bigger with time. Logically that shouldn't happen as long as their is any kind of interaction between the cultures.
In earth history they has always been a quick adaption of technology even when their was mere trading relationship.

I think, it makes a lot sense, that an underdeveloped member "wastes" a lot of research for adaption to the empires logical standard. As long as they do research.
This should go on until they reach that standard.

For erazortts example:

Situation before the minor race joins the empire:
Empire (TC6): 50000 RPs in total, 500 RPs per round
Minor (TC4): 10000 RPs in total, 100 RPs per round

After joining:
Empire: 500 RP/round own research + 0.5 *100 RP/round minor research = 550 RP/round

Minor: fixed adaption factor "10" -> 10*50 RP/round own research + 500 RP/round empire research = 1,000 RP/round

-> With 100 RP/round the minor would still take 80 rounds to close the gap. 160 with factor "5". That doesn't sound too unrealistic to me.

With subjugation I personally would do it either:
1. The same way.
2. The minor has the tech of the empire forced upon. Then you can instantly build your current tech level (without unique buildings?). The logic would then be, that the Klingon have to eat that goddamn processing plants. Shouldn't have messed with the Dominion, now they are on vegetarian diet. ;-)

Not discussing the case of a superior minor for now. ;-)

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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Malioc » Mon May 25, 2020 12:47 pm

However with a superior minor it could stay that way. All research goes to the pool, but their level doesn't boost the empires.

Kinda like Rome.

The enslaved nations instantly used the superior tech of the Romans.
Peacefully membered nations adapted slower, yet they adapted with own style.
And the Greek (superior culture) heavily influenced the Romans, which could be explained, that they gave their RP to Rome. ;-)

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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 1:03 pm

Iceman wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:02 pm
In this case you get their higher tech labs, which are already built :wink:
True, that might actually already be enough.
Malioc wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:26 pm
In the above scenarios the technoligical gap between empire and minor gets bigger with time. Logically that shouldn't happen as long as their is any kind of interaction between the cultures.
In earth history they has always been a quick adaption of technology even when their was mere trading relationship.
Ok yeah thats right.
I think, it makes a lot sense, that an underdeveloped member "wastes" a lot of research for adaption to the empires logical standard. As long as they do research. This should go on until they reach that standard.
That sounds interesting, and appears realistic, yes. However, this does really mean, that the minor will explode in research.
For erazortts example:
And there is the explosion! :mrgreen: Your factor 10 does really kick ass! I was in for a more cautions change.. And I'm not sure that every civ will necessarily be willing to adapt that fast. We say civs, but species would be more appropriate, so your comparison with different human civs might not be cutting it. Looking at Star Trek, at least in the Federation they all remain having their identity. Low tech civs seems to be handeled only very cautiously. So I'm not sure there should really be such an explosion.
With subjugation I personally would do it either:
1. The same way.
2. The minor has the tech of the empire forced upon. Then you can instantly build your current tech level (without unique buildings?). The logic would then be, that the Klingon have to eat that goddamn processing plants. Shouldn't have messed with the Dominion, now they are on vegetarian diet. ;-)
Again looking at Star Trek, you might be on to something. Looking how other major civs handle subjugated minors, there I have the impression that indeed everything is forced upon them.

I at least need more thinking.

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Re: Supremacy new release

Post by Iceman » Mon May 25, 2020 1:14 pm

Malioc wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:26 pm
With subjugation I personally would do it either:
1. The same way.
2. The minor has the tech of the empire forced upon. Then you can instantly build your current tech level (without unique buildings?). The logic would then be, that the Klingon have to eat that goddamn processing plants. Shouldn't have messed with the Dominion, now they are on vegetarian diet. ;-)
1. the same as members?

2. But when the Klingons subjugate a minor race system, the inhabitants are still the minor race (only, no Klingons - the work force I mean). That's why forcing Hunting Grounds on the native population doesn't make sense. Or Processing Plants or any other "farm" type. Or any other PF type for that matter.

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 2:16 pm

Just thinking: There must be somehow a ballance between joining, subjugating and wipeing out + re-colonicing...

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 3:08 pm

and why are the vulcans TechCurve5? Should they be TC6?

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Iceman » Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm

TC6 are the empires; and the Cytherians, for their uniqueness.
Even the Ferengi are TC5. Not that the difference in game terms is that significant.

Just thinking: There must be somehow a ballance between joining, subjugating and wipeing out + re-colonicing...
You mean other than
- if you wipe them and recolonize, you lose their special building, and all the pop and infrastructure, and have to start over
- if you subjugate them, you lose their special building, and have to deal with the morale problem
- to have them join, you need to spend a bunch of dole
?

At least in theory.

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 4:21 pm

Iceman wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm
Even the Ferengi are TC5.
So does this mean that the TCMultiplier will also hit them?
You mean other than
I ment that in reference to the discussion on how the RPs from a subjugated minor are reduced for the empire. Becasue this must be balanced against the other drawbacks.
- if you wipe them and recolonize, you lose their special building, and all the pop and infrastructure, and have to start over
- if you subjugate them, you lose their special building, and have to deal with the morale problem
- to have them join, you need to spend a bunch of dole
So when subjugating you lose the special buildings? Was this also like that in botf? Crap, I wasn't aware of that! Isn't this then too harsh to also decrease the RPs for the empire to half? Perhaps 0.75 would be better in this case.
Last edited by erazortt on Mon May 25, 2020 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 7:33 pm

Before continuing discussing the different ways RPs could be shared between empire and minor and back. I think there should be the implementation for the base of all this, so that after joining the minor continues gathering its own RPs in addition to giving its RPs to the empire. And this must also unlock upgrades to buildings.

@iceman, so do you already have an idea how complicated this implementation would be and what a rough timetable might be?

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by Iceman » Mon May 25, 2020 7:51 pm

erazortt wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 7:33 pm
Before continuing discussing the different ways RPs could be shared between empire and minor and back. I think there should be the implementation for the base of all this, so that after joining the minor continues gathering its own RPs in addition to giving its RPs to the empire. And this must also unlock upgrades to buildings.

@iceman, so do you already have an idea how complicated this implementation would be and what a rough timetable might be?
Yep. It's already implemented in the patch I uploaded an hour or so ago. :cool:
Needs to be tested though. I have done zero testing on this, don't know if it actually works. Had no time, sorry. But since there's been so much activity here lately, I thought I could rely on you guys to test it... between replying to all the posts (not complaining, on the contrary, it's been great to have all this comotion!), prioritizing what to implement first (from all the ideas that have been put forward), actually coding them, and other boring RL stuff, it's a crazy train!

I'm already looking into the next batch of improvements. :wink:

So does this mean that the TCMultiplier will also hit them?
Yes. They're a minor race.

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Re: Minor race advancement

Post by erazortt » Mon May 25, 2020 7:55 pm

WOW! Nice one! But its now too late to start testing it now. Will need to wait until tomorrow evening. :(

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