Shipyards and build queuing...

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AlexMcpherson79
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Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by AlexMcpherson79 »

In SOOO many games of BOTF I'd queue up like, 99 ships, and so we players didn't have to F2 everytime a ship built to get the next one going.

In Supremacy... It's getting a tad annoying, like... I get it - the No. of yards are for parallel production BUT you can't give it a queue of, "Okay so Build these six Miranda's, then a Connie Refit, then repeat/etc" that and it's per yard...

Anyway An Idea for... further down the line, maybe.

A Pooled Ship Construction Queue (with Options).
You have a list of the available ship designs. An Option would allow you to build obseleted designs but those are hidden by default. So you've got four yards, and nothing in production, and you haven't built the colony defense task force yet...
So you F2, select the ship construction menu for that colony, and are presented with a split screen interface. One have has the ships to build, the other has details of each yard - power state, what it's building (nothing), and the pooled queue below. it is presented as a single scrollable bit.
So you've got four yards, and are looking at making a fleet of say...
Seven Taskforces.
1 of: Sovereign Class, two Defiants, and four Sabres. speed 2 range 5
2 of: Akira Class, two Steamrunners, and four New Orleans
2 of: Nebula Class, two Steamrunners, and four Mirandas
2 of: Excelsior Class, two Constellation, and four Soyuz
So you end up with a queue looking like this:
8x Scout IIs
4x Sciout IIIs
8x Frigate IIs
8x Frigate IIIs
4x Destroyer Is
8x Destroyer IIs
2x Destroyer IIIs
2x Cruiser IVs
2x Strike Cruiser IIs
2x Strike Cruiser IIIs
Command Ship III

Now, presuming this order entered, and with four free yards, the top queue entry changes to '4x' while the yards themselves change from saying nothing to saying 'Scout II'. maybe with a button to hide the list of available designs so the queue expands in the interface to give details (like the Dilithium and duranium requirements and estimated time to complete)
Though, unlike with colony buildings, no ROLLOVER of 'unused production capacity' to the next item. One yard can build one ship in one turn if it's production is 400, but it's actually 800? no, during turn processing, it goes Ship complete? if yes? Clear yard building state and create new item "ship of Type _" in system "Whatever", check system ship build pool, if entries avaible, change yard state to building ship of type listed at top of build queue and remove that entry from build queue... go to yard #2.

Or whatever.
I dunno how much work this would be, this is why I'm like "idea for LATER."

Though just FYI, There ARE games with this system. Homeworld, for instance. In Homeworld 2, the mothership can built two ships at a time... though oddly, only one of each type. So if you have a list of 5x interceptors, it'll build one at a time, but if you have a list of 5x interceptors and 5x corvettes, it'll build an interceptor and a corvette simultaneously... or atleast that's what I remember. (this idea ignores this limitation.)


Oh, and for Power of the yards:
Idle Power Requirement, and Active Construction power requirement?
like... Say a yard consumes only 10 energy when not building... but during construction of a ship, it consumes say, 50. you have 4 yards, that's an idle of 40 and fully active 200 consumption levels. an OPTION to set, would be that if during construction it sees "Insufficient power in system", it checks for any powered defenses: SHIELDS and ORBITAL BATTERIES... and TURNS THEM OFF. I did think "temporarily and reactivate" but that would require checking things and going 'shall I still enable more of shields/batteries even though you've then added more powah?'

HOWEVER... The other option is that if there is insufficient power to build in the additional yards, it instead switches off a yard.
So you have say, 8 yards: consuming 80 energy, and only 100 unused energy production and get those eight Scout IIs in the queue.
During turn processing, it would see: Yards one and two can now begin building - energy consumption rising by 80, with 20 energy free, but the others cannot build, insufficient power... so it checks for powered and build state of highest-numbered yard. Sees "no build item", considers it for deactivation. Checks next highest-numbered powered yard, sees the same, considers it for deactivation, until it sees that there is sufficient power to now build in it. so it switches of those two yards (8 and 7) to begin construction i (in yard #3). Yard #4 does the same check as it was already set to powered state, only now it sees 0 energy free, checks 6 and 5 before seeing that, aside from itself, the other yards still powered are busy (3, 2 and 1), and says "insufficient power" and doesn't pull from the queue.

To note however, to save processing, I guess these calculations and stuff only gets called once the turn processing goes 'oh yeah there's ships in the build queue for this system, check for yards not building, check power levels, check if it can deactivate <looks at option of 'defenses or inactive yards'> to get that power if not enough, etc..
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Re: Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by Iceman »

AlexMcpherson79 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:47 pm In SOOO many games of BOTF I'd queue up like, 99 ships, and so we players didn't have to F2 everytime a ship built to get the next one going.

In Supremacy... It's getting a tad annoying, like... I get it - the No. of yards are for parallel production BUT you can't give it a queue of, "Okay so Build these six Miranda's, then a Connie Refit, then repeat/etc" that and it's per yard...

Anyway An Idea for... further down the line, maybe.
https://bitbucket.org/mstrobel/supremac ... uild-queue

:wink:

There already is some infrstructure for this, and in fact that's how the AI works. The human player though needs the UI to handle this, which is mostly what's missing.

But you're absolutely correct we need this! :up:

You have a list of the available ship designs. An Option would allow you to build obseleted designs but those are hidden by default.
I guess that could a nice to have feature. I don't think it would be very useful for long, but still nice.

Though, unlike with colony buildings, no ROLLOVER of 'unused production capacity' to the next item.
Definitely, yes. :up:
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Re: Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by AlexMcpherson79 »

I've been thinking on the subject of keeping/building lower tech ships when you have access to the higher tech ships...

And I can't help but think: How much do they cost to Build and Maintain? Bang Per Buck? The higher the tech you go, the WAY more expensive, but also the more effective they should be. Like... the Scout II should be say, twice the price as the Scout I, but twice the strength... conversely, more expensive to maintain, and longer build time. But not necessarily a linear or consistent increase in all areas.

Like.... Do you build an Ambassador or two (or three), or one Galaxy?

Ideally, my play style would have each system have a 'home fleet' of a handful of the higher-tech ships, but the capability to pump out the older ones in a pseudo-"bringing older ships out of mothballs"...

The higher tech ship should usually be the fastest, so I want them where they can cover the most area in an emergency, whilst the older ships can be the "local" ships... Like... The way I play, is that every outpost and starbase has an attached task force of a few ships, and as I expand, other ships nearby push out the boundaries of explored space, before eventually falling back to a new outpost, and newly-built ships take up the function of exploration...

I'd also, resourcing permitting, then have some of the lower-tech ships in patrol routes, steadily working their way around/through my territory, first responders... and... well... canon fodder, really. They're my warning for "oops there's a hostile force".

And the system defense fleets would be mid or high-tier, capable of fast response. empire-wide though, I'd have access to build a LOT of CHEAP low-tech ships in a pinch...

And I wouldn't say no to the idea of higher-tech level "upgraded" versions of some ships (that DOES use a "upgrade existing ship" mechanic like original BOTF.

Say... Frigate IIa
Description: "Internally redesigned and upgraded for the perils of the 24th Century, the Miranda Class is now faster and stronger. Whilst the spaceframe is old, it has proven it's reliability and it's ability to be cheaply build in large numbers and repaired has ensured it as a mainstay in the modern defense forces of many systems." Or something to this effect.

I also think that the Constitution should be given this treatment, kinda.
Like, turn the Cruiser III to Cruiser IIa, with II's (TOS connie) having the ability to upgrade to being III's.

Excelsiors could get this too (though now being 'Cruiser III' to start with), with a IIIa, IIIb, and IIIc. the a and c being the Enterprise-B and Lakota Refit designs, the b being the same as original, but 'newer components' (basically a speed upgrade and minor stat improvement, but almost the same build cost and maintenance cost). The a and c would be basically more powerful, and consequently more costly versions of the III and IIIb.
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Re: Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by SonOfMogh »

This is an interesting discussion, and in an ideal world the game would cater to different play styles and preferences.

It really should be the case that once you have a new generation of ships, you have the option of building big expensive state of the art ships, and smaller, more basic ships which use the same updated technology. Because the newer ships are so much more advanced than the older ones, a lesser type of ship might be as effective and cheap as a top of the line older ship.

For example;

If your build options are Excelsior, Constellation, Miranda, some kind of Scout, and Oberth, then the Excelsior is going to be expensive, take ages to build, and be genuinely special.

If later in the game you have the option of Galaxy, Nebula, Challenger, New Orleans, and Freedom, then it would look completely insane to be building new Excelsiors, and even if the Federation decided to do so, the ship would be nothing like the old ones internally, and would be more expensive due to all the new tech.

So if you wanted to add an Excelsior level ship to your fleet, which was cheap and quick to build, then the Challenger/New Orleans would fill that gap nicely, and would be roughly equivalent to your existing Excelsiors in terms of general effectiveness.
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Re: Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by Iceman »

That's basically what we have / should have, with the ship types. The Command ships should be rare(r), with their high build cost and maintenance. The backbone of a fleet should be mainly Cruisers (lower build cost and maintenance), with a bunch of Destroyers as escorts (even lower).
The ships stats are not final, and it would be important to get feedback on those so that we can achieve something similar to what you just described.

Notice that some empires have Heavy Scouts and/or Heavy Destroyers, beefed up versions of the basic type. And more expensive, ofc.

My impression is that higher tier ships might need their shields and hull increased. But a lot of playtesting is needed.
So if you guys want to provide some input :wink:
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Re: Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by SonOfMogh »

Definitely up for looking at this and at least providing some suggestions. Do you have a list of ships as it stands now?
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Re: Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by Iceman »

Not really. I have an excel spreadsheet that I made a loonnng time ago, and updated it when there were big changes, but it's probably outdated now.
The best source is the game itself. Either checking the stats in-game, or in the \Resources\Data\TechObjectDatabase.xml file.
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Re: Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by SonOfMogh »

Great, will take a look!
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Re: Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by SonOfMogh »

Quick question Iceman.

Just looked through the Fed ships initially, and I was wondering how flexible you were in terms of the ships classes being used and how they all fit together etc? I know the game can be modded, and many people will no doubt have their own version of the game, but from a stats perspective I would personally be inclined to move things around.

A few initial observations;

*Command ship progression is perfect - Ambassador, Galaxy, Sovereign

*Cruiser is also good, but the jump from Excelsior to Intrepid seems steep. As the Intrepid is very much a post Galaxy design, that means spending the entire TNG era building Excelsiors as your main Cruiser. They were always shown to be old and outdated by that point in the shows. Personally I feel there should be a TNG era Cruiser (Challenger class perhaps, coming before the Galaxy?), maybe even an Ambassador era Cruiser.

*I’m really not sure on the Destroyers. Constellation with its 4 nacelles and being larger than a Miranda always felt like a Cruiser to me. The Steamrunner seems like a Sovereign era design, and the Defiant is too powerful to fit in to the lineage with other empire’s Destroyers. The Defiant doesn’t really fit anywhere, as it clearly outclasses other small ships, and should be expensive and limited (poor fuel, science etc). I would probably have it be it’s own thing, “Heavy Escort” like in BotF, but not replacing anything else. Each empire could have a couple of wildcard classes like this, to keep things interesting.

*I personally feel the Enterprise era Intrepid you currently have as a Surveyor, would be better as an Ent era Frigate/Destroyer, to go with the NX Cruiser. The role of Science ship could be filled by the Daedalus, which is tiny and flimsy. So that would be a straight swap more or less.

*With Scouts, again I feel like the Sabre is post TNG, and a TNG era Scout would be good, to bridge that gap, as the Soyuz was ancient by the TNG show.

*Finally, Strike Cruisers... I never really liked the concept, but I understand it’s a BotF staple. If we’re using that Ship type then these are good choices.

Personally, if I was designing a BotF style game from the ground up, I would have the following in order of cost/build time;

*Command/Explorer - Best range, speed, defence, everything
(Ambassador/Galaxy/Sovereign)

*Heavy Cruiser - Fast and powerful like Command ships, close in most stars, but with noticeably less range and less scientific ability
(Excelsior/Niagara/Nebula/Akira)

*Cruiser - Smaller and noticeably weaker than Heavy Cruisers, but still quick and with decent range
(NX/Constitution/Constellation/Challenger/Intrepid)

*Destroyer - Similar strength to a Cruiser, but slower and less versatile. Basically a low tech cheap Cruiser
(Old Intrepid type/TOS Miranda type/Miranda/Centaur/New Orleans/Steamrumner)

I would maybe include a Scout/Frigate too, Sabre would fit there late game. Or alternatively the Steamrunner could be a very late game Cruiser and the Sabre could be a Destroyer. I would probably have the Federation and Romulans use “Scouts”, and the Klingons/Cardassians use “Frigate”, to mean the same thing.

Obviously Science ships and the other support ships too.

I would have the Klingon BOP be their version of a “Destroyer” type, but just have that entire ship type be called Bird of Prey. And make them a little different time other Empire’s Destroyers, they pack more of a punch but are less durable. I feel like the BOP kind of fills the Scout and Destroyer role for the Klings. They have large numbers of them and they’re a front line ship, but they can go on Scout missions etc.

I would have the Klingon K’Vort class to be their Ambassador/Galaxy era replacement for the Battle Cruiser. But I would make it a fresh design, I always saw the giant BOP in those 2 or 3 TNG Episodes as a VFX error.

I’m just rambling at this point, but wanted to state a couple of general observations!
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Re: Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by Iceman »

I remember that some of the ship descriptions had some "timeline" inconsistencies (like ship X was based on ship Y - but ship Y had somewhat higher TL requirements...).

I guess the ship lists can be improved, and we really need some new models (hint Danijel :D )

I'll try to reply to this later, sorry if I haven't yet, I'm swamped at work...
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Re: Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by Iceman »

SonOfMogh wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:21 am *Cruiser is also good, but the jump from Excelsior to Intrepid seems steep. As the Intrepid is very much a post Galaxy design, that means spending the entire TNG era building Excelsiors as your main Cruiser. They were always shown to be old and outdated by that point in the shows. Personally I feel there should be a TNG era Cruiser (Challenger class perhaps, coming before the Galaxy?), maybe even an Ambassador era Cruiser.
The "problem" here is that the Feds already have 5 Cruisers (though one is a refit), while all the other civs only have 4 - one for each era. And the Federation is the civ with the most ships already.

*I’m really not sure on the Destroyers. Constellation with its 4 nacelles and being larger than a Miranda always felt like a Cruiser to me. The Steamrunner seems like a Sovereign era design, and the Defiant is too powerful to fit in to the lineage with other empire’s Destroyers. The Defiant doesn’t really fit anywhere, as it clearly outclasses other small ships, and should be expensive and limited (poor fuel, science etc). I would probably have it be it’s own thing, “Heavy Escort” like in BotF, but not replacing anything else. Each empire could have a couple of wildcard classes like this, to keep things interesting.
The Constellation is a Heavy Destroyer in the game, so it's actually something inbetween a Frigate (the Fed's Destroyers) and a Cruiser. So are the Steamrunner and the Defiant.
You are correct that the Steamrunner is a DS9/VOY era ship, not TNG. I guess that who created the ship lists thought that the Defiant already filled that role, and so moved the Steamrunner down one era.

Re the Defiant, and adding another ship type, that'd be basically the same thing as the Tactical/Heavy Cruiser type - the Prometheus - which only the Feds have (now the Roms also have the Scimitar), and doesn't really have a specific "role" to justify being a different ship type.

*I personally feel the Enterprise era Intrepid you currently have as a Surveyor, would be better as an Ent era Frigate/Destroyer, to go with the NX Cruiser. The role of Science ship could be filled by the Daedalus, which is tiny and flimsy. So that would be a straight swap more or less.
You mean the Icarus?

*With Scouts, again I feel like the Sabre is post TNG, and a TNG era Scout would be good, to bridge that gap, as the Soyuz was ancient by the TNG show.
Yep, the Saber should be a Scout IV.
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Re: Shipyards and build queuing...

Post by Iceman »

And make them a little different time other Empire’s Destroyers, they pack more of a punch but are less durable.
That's actually already the case :wink: Klingon ships have generally a bit less shields and more weapons.
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