Trade Routes

[Iceman]

I've created a new topic so we can discuss Trade Routes. Current implementation, suggestions for improvements, etc.
Copied some posts from the Dominion thread here, as a starting point.
Please post your opinion, so we can make them more interesting.

I suppose the trade lines are another topic to discuss not only for the Dominium as current effect is minimal.

A discussion about Trade Routes would be nice, yes. What do you mean by their effect being minimal? The "diplomatic" effect, or the credits output? Or something else?

For now an effect of trade routs in money is negligible. In the original BotF longer line provided more money, now it is opposite and often there is no suitable system nearby. We could try 2-3 times greater income to have it attractive. From other side I a connection to diplomacy would be nice, like +1 of regard per turn per agreement - just a free thought.
Definitely an easy process to switch system connected to given line would be also nice, even now. If I break the line it is a message about a penalty in relations and I am not sure if choosing different system of my empire to be connected in the same turn is penalize or not. In time I should have more suitable systems in closer vicinity to trade with minors.

I you know I dislike to many favors for specific races and the Dominium regard rose far too fast in the past versions of the game.

Yep, and I've toned down the Federation a bit, but it's a work in progress, and feedback is essential.
I've also toned down (a few times) the effect of envoys so that relations don't improve too fast.
I'm always open to new suggestions.

For now an effect of trade routs in money is negligible. In the original BotF longer line provided more money, now it is opposite and often there is no suitable system nearby. We could try 2-3 times greater income to have it attractive. From other side I a connection to diplomacy would be nice, like +1 of regard per turn per agreement - just a free thought.

I figured longer routes take... hmm, longer to deliver the goods, so they should actually provide less income, not more. But this can be changed. I can remove or tweak the distance modifier.
Credits are negligible after the early game, and compared to the global treasury, yes. But they should more or less match the colony's tax output, effectively doubling that colony's credits contribution to the empire.
TRs should be very profitable, I agree, but even as they are now, in the late game you already usually have boatloads of money! I've lowered tax income for the Feds already, maybe we should do that for the other empires too - so that to develop your empire faster, you have to trade. Much like, hmm, RL

TRs do increase Trust, but not Regard. Regard is already increased by bribes/gifts, envoys, etc and it already increases kind of fast - so much so that I had to decrease the effect of envoys like already mentioned.

All of this is a very delicate balance act, needs to be treated carefully. And feedback is crucial.

Definitely an easy process to switch system connected to given line would be also nice, even now. If I break the line it is a message about a penalty in relations and I am not sure if choosing different system of my empire to be connected in the same turn is penalize or not. In time I should have more suitable systems in closer vicinity to trade with minors.

Yes, it is, the penalty is not cancelled. You should wait for the treaty to end before switching systems. The closer you are to the end of the treaty though, the lower the penalty.

[Iceman]

A few things about how TRs work currently:

Each colony can only establish one TR to another colony; it can establish TRs with as many different colonies as its available TRs.

If the TR originates in the homesystem of a (member) Mercantile minor race, it does not require an Open Borders treaty if the target civ is another minor race; if it is an empire, it does. A Regard level of Neutral+ is always required though.

Regarding the distance modifier, there's a base distance for maximum TR income, which is higher for Mercantile minors, that is modified by your Propulsion tech level; for distances up to that value, TR income is maxed, decaying for each sector above that - never going below a minimum value.

All of these values are hard-coded, but can be changed.
The formula for TR income is similar to BotF's AFAIR, and the multipliers can be modded easily in the Tables folder.


Trust is increased by active Open Borders treaties (any treaties actually), with bonuses for credits from TRs.
At some point, I intend to make Trust slightly affect Regard (positively or negatively) though. - DONE
The current design assumes that TRs are for gaining credits (and Trust) only, Regard is gained through other means: terraforming, envoys and gifts.

Since the Trade Centre affects local TR income, I decreased tax income for the Feds, and decreased the Trade Centre's bonus from 50% to 25%. The point is to make the Federation "need" to establish TRs for economic strength (instead of being OP from the get go).
I've also recently decreased the number of TRs each colony can establish, due to the large treasuries in the late game - and to try to diversify the source colonies a bit (instead of using only your larger colonies connected to multiple target colonies). The Dominion doesn't get any default TRs, they have to rely on member minors - that's one of their drawbacks.
All of these values can be modded too.

[Iceman]

The formula for TR income is similar to BotF's AFAIR, and the multipliers can be modded easily in the Tables folder.

At this point in development, these values can be modded during the course of a game, and those changes will take effect immediately. So testing changes should be rather easy.
The main thing to keep in mind while testing this is to watch the long term impact of those changes.

One other factor to consider is if trading with a minor civ is not (excessively) better than signing a membership treaty with them - taxes + buildings + resources + production + etc.

[Iceman]

Should I remove the distance modifier for TR income?
I think that currently it may only be working for the turn that you set the TR, and then it gets discarded - it may be only a display issue though (next turn the value is different), will have to check.


One of the reasons I lowered the number of TRs available (by increasing the pop thresholds) was to make Mercantile minor races more powerful. Having a limited number of TRs available should make finding such a minor race a real treasure.
Should this be changed (back)?

[Warp Core Breach]

Hi Iceman,
I know I thought initially that 300 pop to have a trade route was kinda high, but ultimately this is about balance. Having more, but less lucrative, TRs will require more micromanagement, but feels more realistic. Having fewer higher-value TRs will mean larger swings in income, and as you said, make the specials more valuable. I guess I lean towards the latter - give us reasons to fight over the minors! (yet another reason to not punish players for conquering vs. membership. Oops, wrong thread! )

[geordie]

I suppose I tested a replacement of trade routs, just to have one of Ferengi with a nearby system and all my Trust points went down, even with other affiliated races. I wanted to write about that.

[Iceman]

You modded the values in the tables? And Trust went down? What values did you use?
(with no modding, Trust goes up [with the Ferengi] as it should)

[geordie]

No, no modding.
I had a trade route, canceled it and created a new one, all in the same turn.
And the effect persists even for meeting next new races.

[Iceman]

No, no modding.
I had a trade route, canceled it and created a new one, all in the same turn.
And the effect persists even for meeting next new races.

Ah, yes, if you break TRs, you get penalized, of course, You're not a trustworthy civ, everyone sees you as such.
Re-establishing it to the same system/civ is of no consequence - it's not something you'd actually do in a game, except for testing purposes. If there was no penalty, you could "probe" systems until you found the one that gets you the most credits - which you can do anyway just by checking its population, no need for any tricks.

[Iceman]

Do you find the need for more TRs (going back to the old numbers)?
I see you only have about half your potential TRs assigned. (most minors are already members)

And the effect persists even for meeting next new races.

I probably forgot to apply the penalty to contacted civs only... will check, thanks!

[geordie]

I see you only have about half your potential TRs assigned. (most minors are already members)

I had no minors to established more TRs. I was not too much concentrated on TRs this time, so if there is a minor race in that save without a route, I would make it some turns later.

[geordie]

I have a feeling that it could be a way not to break, but to improve the TR. But it is not urgent.
In case of members - I suppose a decision of the membership should be an obligation as well and a minor event couldn't influence it too much.
...Unless we want to maintain continues care of members - but it would require additional tools for that. Maybe it could be important for mercantile races.
I think there are more conflicts possible - a reaction of peaceful races for war, especially declared by 'parent' empire.

[Iceman]

...Unless we want to maintain continues care of members - but it would require additional tools for that.

Yes, this would be interesting.

Maybe it could be important for mercantile races.

That's an excellent suggestion!

I think there are more conflicts possible - a reaction of peaceful races for war, especially declared by 'parent' empire.

And this one too!

[geordie]

So a breaking TR would mean: minus Trust of mercantile races...., but plus Trust of deceptive ones?

[Iceman]

So a breaking TR would mean: minus Trust of mercantile races...., but plus Trust of deceptive ones?

Done. So now it should be:

Isolationists get twice the penalty, whatever their status.
[new] Members: Mercantiles get twice the penalty, Deceptives get a bonus, rest are unaffected.
Owner of target colony gets twice the penalty, plus a temporary Regard penalty.
Other civs in contact get a penalty.

Thoughts, suggestions ?

I have a feeling that it could be a way not to break, but to improve the TR. But it is not urgent.

Could you explain what you mean, please?