D’deridex and Galaxy

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D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by geon »

Two of the most iconic ships in the Star Trek universe, the Federation’s Galaxy Class and the Romulan D’deridex Warbird, are favourite topics in various forums across the internet. They are often compared and analysed to determine which ship is superior. Many generalisations have been put forward. Among these are that the Galaxy is faster, more manoeuvrable and better shielded, while the warbird has slightly greater firepower and is able to take more damage.

Since the warbird just happens to be my favourite star trek ship, I can’t resist doing my own analysis to determine the truth of the matter. So sit back and enjoy.

For this discussion, we shall compare a pre-Dominion war Galaxy (the type seen in most of TNG), and a B-type Warbird (the smaller D’deridex seen in most of TNG and DS9). Since most confrontations in TNG occur between these two particular types, I think it’s a fair choice of ship models. Let’s see what the onscreen evidence can tell us, and how this affects the BOTF stats for these ships.

The vanilla game stats for these ships (I’m using pre upgrade figures) are as follows;

Galaxy Range – Medium, Speed – 1, Hull – 208, Shields – 600, Beam 3 x phaser @ 35, Torp 2 x Photon @ 52 Full Volley - 209

D’deridex Range – Medium, Speed – 2, Hull – 175, Shields – 540, Beam 4 x Disruptor @ 43, Torp 3 x Plasma @ 80 Full Volley - 412

The D’deridex, according to these figures, has nearly twice the firepower of the Galaxy, has the same range but is faster. Hull and shields are slightly less than those of the Galaxy. If these figures were accurate (ie: agreed with onscreen evidence) the Galaxy would have no chance against this vessel. Since this does not seem to be the case (given screen representations and the game’s other inaccuracies with other ship types), we shall have to alter these figures to a more realistic level.

Is there any raw data we can use? Ex Astris Scientia gives the cruising speed of a Galaxy at Warp 9.2 http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... ships1.htm

They have no figure for the D’deridex’s speed (the larger A model 1300m plus length version – I’m assuming the smaller version has comparable speeds)http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... _ships.htm

Let’s try on screen information. The fastest speed shown for the Enterprise was in TNG ‘Q Who?’

LAFORGE [OC]: Bridge, this is Engineering. We are now at warp nine point six five.
WORF: The Borg are still gaining.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/142.htm

In TNG ‘Tin Man’, we get the following;

DATA: That is correct. Starbase one two three has detected two D'daridex class cruisers on an intercept course. The top speed of this class cruiser is known to be less than ours. Therefore we do have some advantage.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/168.htm

So, officially, the D’deridex is slower than the Galaxy. But by how much? No figures are given. But perhaps other information in this episode can help us calculate it.

DATA: Captain, it would appear that the Romulan's intent is to contact Tin Man first, at any cost. According to my sensor readings, the warbird has exceeded maximum engine output by thirty percent. They seem to have irreparable damage to their warp coils.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/168.htm

We have two figures for the Galaxy, cruising speed of 9.2 and max speed of 9.65. We know the D’deridex is slower than these figures. If the Romulan engines had to exceed 30% of their normal output to keep up with Enterprise, their normal speeds should be 30% less than Enterprise norms. (I’m not taking into account weight, engine power to tonnage, speed to engine output etc…..I’m trying to keep this simple!)

Using a warp speed calculator I found on the net http://www.ussdragonstar.com/utilitycore/warpspeeds.asp

(don’t know how accurate it is)….I get the following figures.

Warp 9.2 – 494357763 kph
Warp 9.65 – 681428257 kph

Taking 30% from each gives 34650434.1 and 476999779.9 kph respectively, or roughly Warp 8.3 and 9.11. We can use these figures as our tentative D’deridex speeds. So the Galaxy is roughly warp.54 to .9 faster. Speed goes to the Galaxy.

Speed 1 in the vanilla game is way too low considering the Galaxy was the fastest ship in the fleet when it first appeared. Since the fastest ships in the fleet (Intrepid, Sovereign) should be given a 4, we’ll give the slightly slower Galaxy a 3. The D’deridex, being slower than a Galaxy, we’ll give a 2.

What about manoeuvrability? Being a smaller ship (642m vs roughly 8-900m for a D’deridex B) you would expect the Galaxy to run rings around the Romulan. However, screen evidence tells a different picture. In TNG ‘The Defector’, a D’deridex B does a sharp 180 degree turn and flies off. Compare that with the wide banking turn the Galaxy’s drive section does in TNG ‘Encounter At Farpoint’ or the wide turn the Enterprise executes to run from a Borg cube in TNG ‘Q Who?’ and TNG ‘Best Of Both Worlds’ The Warbird appears positively nimble compared to the lumbering Galaxy class. Now the Galaxy MAY be more manoeuvrable than the larger A type Warbird (seen in TNG ‘Neutral Zone’), but is far less so against the B type model. Manoeuvrability goes to the Romulan.

Let’s turn to firepower. The general consensus in the forums is that the D’deridex has equal of slightly greater firepower. Can we determine this from the TV series?

I know of one instance when a D’deridex fired directly on the Enterprise. It occurred in TNG ‘Tin Man’. The warbird made a firing pass and then headed for Gomtu.

WORF: The Romulan has passed us.
PICARD: Damage report.
WORF: Casualties reported. Seventy percent loss to the shields.
TAM: Their attack on us was incidental, Captain.
PICARD: Incidental?
TAM: Yes. To delay us.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/168.htm

I counted at least seven hits during this pass, meaning that each disruptor blast was equivalent to 10% of the Enterprise shielding. If we use the BOTF vanilla stats for the Galaxy seen earlier, this makes each disruptor 60 (10% of 600).

But what about the Galaxy’s phasers? Is there any information available on screen to determine Federation phaser power relative to Romulan disruptors? Surprisingly the answer is yes.

In TNG ‘The Mind’s Eye’, the Romulans fashion Federation phasers but charge them with their disruptor settings.

DATA: Energy cell usage remains constant at one point oh five megajoules per second. Curious. The efficiency reading on the discharge crystal is well above Starfleet specifications.
LAFORGE: Yeah, by quite a bit. Ninety four point one percent efficiency.
DATA: Our most efficient discharge crystal typically fires with eighty six point five percent efficiency.

LAFORGE: The Romulans. They fashioned a perfect Federation rifle but they had to charge it from their energy sources. So the discharge crystal and the emission beam pattern correspond to those you'd find in a Romulan disrupter
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/198.htm

Romulan disruptors fire at 94.1 efficeiency.
Federation phasers at 86.5%.

We can use these figures on our stats. Lets look at our figure of 60 for the warbird disruptor. Using simple maths; if 60 = 94.1%, 1 = 1.5683 (60 divided by 94.1).
86.5 = 55.154 rounded down to 55.

This is a reasonable figure for the top Federation phaser of the time, visa vie its top Romulan counterpart. Put another way, Federation phaser figures in the game should be calculated at 92% of the equivalent Romulan weapons.

What about Romulan torpedoes? Unfortunately there is very little concerning their use against a Galaxy class starship, at least in the series. In one TNG episode, TNG ‘Where Silence Has Lease’, a warbird does shoot a torpedo at the Enterprise.

WORF: Direct hit, sir. Our shields are weakening.
PICARD: Warn them we'll return fire.
WORF: Transmitting. They've armed another full spread, sir.
PICARD: Fire torpedoes.
(A single torpedo blows the warbird to atoms)
PICARD: Oh, that was too easy.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/128.htm

Considering that the warbird was a construct of the alien entity holding them captive, the entire encounter must be used cautiously. Give the ease of the warbird’s destruction, it can be argued that the rest of its characteristics (ie weapons) are also flawed, and therefore do not present a true picture of the D’deridex’s characteristics.

If the weapons are accurate, it shows that Romulan torpedoes are very powerful (one is sufficient to weaken a Galaxy’s shielding). But that is a big IF in this instance.

For now, we’ll leave the torpedo stats as they are. The modder can fool around with figures to provide the balance he or she wants.

Federation shielding has always seemed better than their opponents during all the series, so I have no problem with the 600 vs 540 Galaxy/D’deridex figures.

One could argue that being a bigger ship, the D’deridex should have a greater hull figure. True enough, but by how much? If the D’deridex B is roughly say 25% bigger than a Galaxy, then we get a figure of 260 (208 + 25%).

Range also we can leave as medium for both. The D’deridex had no trouble going to areas a Galaxy can reach (just slower). When it appeared, the Galaxy was the top of the line long range explorer of the fleet. Why not give it a ‘long’ rating? Basically to differentiate it from later even longer ranged models (like the Intrepid).

So there you have it. A reworking of the vanilla stats based on on screen evidence.
For the Galaxy, we go from vanilla:

Range – Medium,
Speed – 1
Hull – 208,
Shields – 600,
Beam 3 x phaser @ 35
Torp 2 x Photon @ 52
Full Volley - 209

to
Range – Medium,
Speed – 3
Hull – 208,
Shields – 600,
Beam 3 x phaser @ 55
Torp 2 x Photon @ 52
Full Volley - 269

For the D’deridex we go from
Range – Medium,
Speed – 2,
Hull – 175,
Shields – 540,
Beam 4 x Disruptor @ 43,
Torp 3 x Plasma @ 80
Full Volley - 412

To
Range – Medium,
Speed – 2,
Hull – 260,
Shields – 540,
Beam 4 x Disruptor @ 60,
Torp 3 x Plasma @ 80
Full Volley – 480

The new stats now have the Galaxy going from
offense 209, defence 808
vs D’deridex offense 412 defence 715

to offense 269, defence 808
vs offence 480, defence 800

Firepower is still way too overpowered (worse in fact). The various encounters on screen show that both captains (Galaxy vs D’deridex B) were nervous when facing the other. This implies a rough equivalence in combat power. To balance things up, let’s remove two torpedoes from the D’deridex.

The new stats are now:
Range – Medium,
Speed – 2,
Hull – 270,
Shields – 540,
Beam 4 x Disruptor @ 60,
Torp 1 x Plasma @ 80
Full Volley – 340

Galaxy offense 269, defence 808
D’dreidex offence 320, defence 800

This seems a much more balanced set of figures. The D’deridex is more manoeuvrable with a slightly higher offense, the Galaxy is faster with better defence. With crew experience being equal, an encounter could go either way.
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by Darth_Windu »

An interesting read geon, but unfortunately (and no fault of your own) flawed. The problem here is that in various episodes of Trek, including TNG, the ships either has paper-thin shields, or has a super-strong hull, depending on the episode. I mean the Galaxy is portrayed as a battleship in DS9, yet in a lot of TNG episodes, particularly the early ones, it gets disabled very easily. Just look at how quickly it was disabled in 'Peak Performance' (I think...the one with the USS Hathaway), yet it can resist fire from a Cardassian ship and disable it with ease.
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by Badbru »

The other issue from a Botf perspective is that the Galaxy is not the best top line ship in the list for the Federation, the Sovereign is. Unless other ships like the Valdore class or the Scimitar are added to the Romulan list by modders, the D'deridex does remain the best top line ship in the list. For game balence then it needs to remain better than the Galaxy. (atleast the 2nd version needs to)

Beyond that though I cocur with Geons assesment.
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by geon »

Hi Darth Windu and Badbru,

Thank you for your input.

To Darth Windu,

I don't know if you could classify the Galaxy as a pure battleship. Yes, it's the largest and most advanced ship in the Federation fleet at the start of, and throughout the TNG TV series. And COULD act as a Command ship (as in the Dominion War). And certainly it probably has the greatest combat potential throughout the TNG series (the Borg referred to it as 'the strongest ship in the Federation Fleet'). But being classed as an explorer makes it rather a long range research and exploration vessel which just happens to be able to defend itself better than any other Federation ship during this period.

I've touched on the 'Peak performance' and 'Wounded' episodes in previous posts, but to briefly restate these views;

In TNG 'Peak Performance', the Enterprise faced a Kreechta Class Marauder (a D'Kora optimised for combat duties), a ship roughly equivalent to it in combat power. Add the fact that the Enterprise thought this ship was part of a simulation and didn't have its full shields up in the first attack, and it's no surprise it was disabled.

In TNG 'The Wounded', I proposed that the ship it was facing was the 'patrol' vessel it was meant to rendevous with, in this case a Galor Class type 1 destroyer, a smaller and less capable vessel. It made no sense to me that a cruiser sized opponent would cause such minimum damage to an unshielded Galaxy.

To Badbru,

Yes, there are better ships in both the Federation and alien fleets. I just took the D'deridex and Galaxy as the main subjects for my analysis. If you read my article on the Valdore, you'll see what I think of that ship. And yes, the Sovereign is still the best Federation ship (at least in the TNG, DS9 Voyager period). I was just trying to straighten out the Galaxy/D'deridex imbalance in the game.

Basically, I see Galaxy and D'deridex B as broadly equivalent. The Tal Shiar D'deridex upgrade puts it slightly ahead of the Galaxy. The Sovereign is better than a D'deridex B, maybe slightly better than a D'deridex A. The Valdore retores rough parity with the Sovereign.
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by JeanLucPicard1 »

It's always been hard to determine just how powerful a Galaxy was in TNG. In "Yesterday's Enterprise", the Enterprise-D was able to destroy one of three K'Vort Class battle cruisers and buy the Enterprise-C enough time to enter the temporal rift. In "Rascals", and "Tin Man", the Enterprise's shield seem to be failing after just a few short disruptor blasts.

In the TNG episode "Conundrum", Worf states the Enterprise-D has a high capacity shield grid, 10 phaser banks, and 250 photon torpedoes. With their memories wiped, this leads Riker to presume the Enterprise is a battleship.

But despite all of it's firepower, it was easily dispatched by a twenty year old Klingon Bird of Prey. How could it be that the Enterprise was outmatched by a scout ship, yet could fare better against a Borg Cube or Cardassian Galor Class? I am going to say these cases are just the way the story was written and don't prove anything statistically about starship strength/weaknesses.

In an old game I have (TNG A Final Unity), the Enterprise encounters a Garidian Warbird (equivalent of a Romulan Warbird), chasing a scout ship across the neutral zone. Worf states that the Garidian Warbird has slightly more firepower, but is less manuverable than the Enterprise. Riker responds, "we'd both take a beating if it came down to a fight."

I also have an old collector card of a Romulan Warbird. The description says the Warbird is a massive ship, significantly larger than a Galaxy Class ship.

Therefore, with this information at hand, I am going to say the Galaxy Class of the TNG era is a solid ship with a respectable armament. The Romulan Warbird has a slight advantage in firepower (nothing serious), but is slower and less maneuverable than the Galaxy. The Galaxy has better shielding, but the Warbird is a bigger vessel and can naturally take more hits after shield failure.

Now in the Dominion War, we see Romulan Warbirds and the Galaxy Class in action vs the Cardassian orbital weapon platforms. One of the Warbirds seems to be instantly dispatched by one of the orbital weapon platforms. Yellow disruptors penetrate its shields and burn through multiple points in the hull. However, one of the Galaxys (possibly the U.S.S. Magellan), takes damage from the orbital weapon platforms and continues to fight.

Then during Operation Return, we see two Galaxies double teaming a Galor, phasers blasting straight through the shields to the hull. The whole war, I do not recount one Galaxy Class being destroyed except for the U.S.S Odyssey which was destroyed when a Jem'Hadar fighter rammed the ship after shield failure.

Starfleet obviously made improvements to Federation shields and Galaxy weakpoints after this event. When the Dominion went to take DS9 Damar said the station's shields were holding. Weyoun responds, "Impossible, Federation shields have never been a match for our weapons."

Therefore, I think the Galaxy of the Dominion War era is a new beast, busting through enemy lines like a boss. It took starfleet a while, but they worked out all the bugs in the Galaxy and made it a true warship instead of some giant hulk to blast at.

In Vanilla BOTF, Hasbro made the Galaxy, Ambassador, and Miranda gigantic pieces of crap only worth sending into battle as cannon fodder or to stay and guard the base. On top of that, they didn't even put the Excelsior Class in. Thank god good folks came out with mods and ship stat editors.

My stats for the Galaxy and Warbird in my Ultimate Dominion Mod are as follows:

Name: Battleship
Class: Galaxy
Beams: 10 X 50
Torpedoes: 10 X 84
Shields: 750
Hull: 240

Vs.

Name: Warbird
Class: D'Deridex
Beams: 13 X 45
Torpedoes: 10 X 90
Shields: 620
Hull: 280

Tier 2

Name: Battleship II
Class: Galaxy
Beams: 12 X 60
Torpedoes: 10 X 100
Shields: 800
Hull: 250

Vs.

Name: Warbird II
Class: D'Deridex
Beams: 15 X 60
Torpedoes: 12 X 120
Shields: 680
Hull: 300

I didn't include the range/speed bc I play on UDM Large so naturally I have the settings set high to get places faster :) But, if I played on normal the Galaxy would obviously have a higher range/speed than the Warbird.
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by Tethys »

Warbird always wins in both of those setups because of hull strength/ram. :( Im sure there is something up someone's sleeves on this however ;)
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by JeanLucPicard1 »

There is. I reduced the Warbird's agility so it's harder to reach the target, and the Galaxy has a higher evade value to reduce the chance of being hit by weapons. :)

Also, in multi-player, ramming is considered a distasteful practice, so you don't have to worry about it unless you don't know the person and they want to be an azzzhat and ram your ships.

Moreover, there's only a difference of 40-50 hitpoints in this setup, so it really wouldn't be worth it for anyone to try to ram you with the lower shield value and reduced agility.
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by xDx »

I think what tethys meant was concerning this post viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1210&p=18230&sid=d5 ... 054#p18230 different options to balance the ram issue which apparently plagues a lot of MP games especially in UDM matches. But I will leave it at that :wink:
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by JeanLucPicard1 »

I was aware of that topic, and another reason why it didn't concern me was that the ram bug was fixed for UDM 3.01c and ECM v2 viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2198. :)

However, I haven't tested 3.01c in a multi-player match yet.
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by geon »

Hi JeanLucPicard1,

Yes, the Galaxy does initially appear inconsistant on first views in various episodes, but once you examine the each episode and the situation closely, there does appear to be some consistancy with the Galaxy's attributes.

'Yesterday's Enterprise' was a straight slugfest between three K'vort battlecruiser BOP's and one uprated Galaxy. One BOP was detroyed but the Galaxy was effectively finished. That seems pretty straightforward.

'Rascals' has an unshielded Enterprise being disabled by two B'rel cruiser BOP's. Again, no surprises.

In 'Conundrum', with everyone's memory wiped, anyone seeing such a large ship would naturally call it a battleship, since they wouldn't remember anything to compare it with.

Sure, the D12 crippled the Galaxy. But look at the tactical situation, an effectively shieldless Enterprise being slowly whittled down by a highly manouverable BOP.

Ahh yes, the Cardassian orbital weapons platforms. I'm assuming you are referring to the battle in DS9 'Tears Of The Prophets'. If you look at the battle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg_6eeJ5eVc

you'll see a D'deridex get hit by multiple beams and torps (1:53) and get damaged, but is still going. In 1:58 on, a Galaxy gets hit by a beam and suffers a gaping hole in the hull. The warbird suffered multiple hits, the Galaxy only one. I wonder how the Galaxy would have fared had it been hit as many times as the Warbird.

In 'Operation Return', I assume you are referring to the battle in 'Sacrifice Of Angels'.

Here it is clearly stated that the Galors were destroyer class,

http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/index.htm

so its no surprise two Galaxy ships could easily cripple one Galor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXUgl87Y ... re=related
especially 1:02 to 1:10

I too own a copy of Final Unity. I agree with the firepower comparison, but not the manouverability.

Yes, Starfleet would have upgraded its fleet during the war, but the same could be said of their enemy, so a rough equivalence between ship types would still remain.

Your stats look good.

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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by JeanLucPicard1 »

Hi Geon,

I never really had a doubt in my mind where the Galaxy stands vs the Warbird and capital ships of other empires. I was merely saying that's it's easy for some to get confused about it's relative strength because of all the inconsistancies between the episodes.

For example, in "Tin Man" we see the Enterprise firing phasers out of it's photon tube. Somehow, I doubt that even Geordi was capable of fully modifying a photon tube to fire a phaser blast. The story writers clearly had a vivid imagination, but didn't put too much thought behind what actually makes sense to the viewer.

As for the episode Rascals, the Enterprise was never unshielded during the attack. In fact, Riker ordered red alert, maximum shields, and for Worf to return fire. So the two Birds of Prey were able to disable the Enterprise at full shield strength with a short attack. This was rather mind boggling to me at that time, and I think this episode is why people may get confused about the actual strength of a Galaxy's shields.

In other timelines, the Galaxy is not the powder puff Explorer that it's labeled to be. It's a powerful battleship capable of holding it's own, or destroying other captial ships. We see this in "Yesterday's Enterprise", the Entprisde-D defending the Ent-C and taking out a Klingon Battle Cruiser. Then in "All Good Things", the Enterprise-D has been upgraded to the point where it can completely overwhelm a Negh'Var Class Attack Cruiser, and slice and dice it up easy mode with a phaser cannon. This just tells me that even though starfleet intended it to be a ship of exploration, properly fitted the Galaxy is a true battleship.

I think you get my point, but let's stick with the normal TNG timeline. I still think a Galaxy would be more maneuverable then a Warbird. It makes sense since the Warbird is a much larger vessel. More mass means more intertia, so it takes longer for the ship to turn, stop, accelerate, etc, ya know, simple physics right? Unless of course, the Romulans have some sort of uber engines installed on that size of ship.

I've also watched those DS9 episodes many a time. They were some of my favorite in the DS9 series.

In the link you provided to the battle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg_6eeJ5eVc, I have interpreted the events as follows.

At time 1:40 orbital weapons come online, 1;43 orbitals fire plasma torpedoes at Warbird, 1:45 Warbird is hit by plasma torpedoes, 1:46 Warbird is hit by disruptors and loses power to engines.

At time 1:49 Galaxy engages an orbital weapons platform, 1:50 it takes damage from orbital but still continues onward.

At time 1:42 we see the Warbird again, it's adrift and still taking fire from the orbital weapons.

Again, this is just how I see the events unfold. I can see how it looks like that Warbird keeps going, but I'm sure it loses engine power, and other vital systems from those oribital weapons.

Yeah, the Galaxy got hit too, and had some nasty gashes in its side, but to me that ship is the one that kept going out of all the other ships. The Warbird, Akira, Excelsiors, and Mirandas were getting raped by the OWPs.

Also, in "Sacrafice of Angels" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXUgl87Y ... re=related at time 1:09, you can see another Galaxy firing phasers and solo taking out another Galor. The Galor looks like it was disabled. Simply just wanted to point that out for visual purposes, and we all know a single Galor is nothing to a Galaxy or Warbird anyhoo so... :)

To this date, we also don't have any knowledge of any Galaxys being destroyed during the war (aside from the Odyssey). However, multiple Warbirds were destroyed during the war and the flagship D'Ridthau was destroyed when the Dominion attacks at Cardassia caused the Romulan fleet lines to collapse.

Everyone is going to have their own speculations and opinions about these two capital ships in terms of strength, firepower, and maneuverability. But from what I've seen, I'm still going to say the TNG Galaxy has slightly better shields and peforms better at maneuvering. The TNG Warbird on the other hand has a slight advantage in firepower.

For post TNG/Dom War Era, I am going to say both empires upgraded each class respectively, but the Federation (always being elite at research), is a notch above the Warbird in terms of relative strength.

Thank you for looking at those stats; I hope you consider using them. :)
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by geon »

Hi again Jeanlucpicard1,

Nothing I like better than a good stimulating discussion!

Hmm, don’t remember the phaser in the photon trick. I’ll have to watch the episode again, but it wouldn’t be the first time special effects have slipped up.

In ‘Rascals we get the following dialogue;

WORF: No, sir. I have been attempting to. Commander, two ships decloaking fore and aft. Klingon birds of prey, B'rel class.
(which promptly start firing at the Enterprise)
RIKER: Maximum shields. Take us out of orbit, Ensign. Mister Worf, prepare to return fire.
(Young Picard rushes out of his quarters at the Red alert)
RIKER: Damage report.
WORF: We've lost primary life support. Switching to secondary systems.
RIKER: Lock phasers on target bearing to port.
WORF: Phasers locked.
RIKER: Fire.
DATA: Minor damage to one ship. Its shields are holding.
WORF: Starboard power coupling is down. Warp engines are offline.
RIKER: Shields?
WORF: Down to thirteen percent.
(the ship takes more hits)
WORF: Casualties reported on decks twenty six and twenty seven.
DATA: Sensors and secondary generators are offline. Life support down to sixty seven percent.
RIKER: Engineering, status report
LAFORGE [OC]: Warp power back online.
WORF: We have lost shields. Heavy casualties on decks thirty five through forty.
DATA: I am detecting transporter signatures in three cargo bays. We are being boarded, sir.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/233.htm

I’ll have to watch this scene again in the episode itself, but it looks as if the B’rels got their shots in before Riker orders the shields raised. This attack causes most of the damage. I think you were ‘mind boggled’ because like many others you still think of the B’rel as a scout class vessel (as in the vanilla game). But whatever your views on ‘Rascals’, this episode clearly shows the B’rels as cruiser size ships (in fact a reuse of the K’vort footage of ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’). So while two scouts crippling a Galaxy is far fetched, two cruisers is much more believable.

Further dialogue in the episode,

LURIN: We're not affiliated with the Ferengi Alliance. We are in business for ourselves. Yes, it will be highly profitable. For an investment of two surplus Klingon ships, a few repairs and some weapons, we've netted a Federation starship and her crew, not to mention a planet rich in vendarite
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/233.htm

may indicate that these particular B’rels have been upgraded with weapons not seen on the standard Klingon model (this is conjecture).

Alternate timeline ships are fun, if for no other reason than to explore the possibilities in the design. ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’ shows what a Galaxy can become when the focus is not on families, exploration and research. There is so more space to work with in a Galaxy because so much more non military space was initially built into the design. A Sovereign for example, has most of its military equipment already assigned in the initial model. You can only improve it so far. But a Galaxy has maybe half it's internal mass available for new equipment once the family living quarters and labs are removed. So improvements will be greater.

Logically, the Enterprise D model should not exist, since that ship was destroyed in ‘Generations’. But as a future model of the design it’s still plausible (cloak, phaser cannon, third nacelle etc).

Yes, logically a ship with more mass and size should be less manoeuvrable than a smaller vessel. But this is science fiction, and the franchise writers often throw logic and continuity out the window (damn them!)

Does a ship’s mass and inertia even matter in the weightlessness and vacuum of space? Does simple physics apply at warp speeds? Does a ship’s warp bubble affect these characteristics? Are Romulan warp bubbles more efficient in controlling mass and inertia due to its singularity power source? Questions begging for answers!

The battle scene with the platforms can be interpreted any number of ways, so it’s up to the viewers to make up their minds on what’s happening there.

Yes, in the ‘Sacrifice Of Angels’ scene, a Galaxy in the background does fire at a Galor. The beam hits, but the Galor doesn’t seem to be too affected,

Again, I quite agree that everyone will have their own interpretations of these ships. Discussions like these give them more material to work with and come up with their own solutions.

Whatever your views on the subject, I think the Galaxy class acts as the benchmark in the game. Whatever stats you give it in your mods will help determine the stats of all the other ships (at least in the TNG era) simply because you can compare the onscreen episode interactions between the various models, and factor these into your ship stats.

For example, in the initial article, I worked out a D’deridex’s disruptor rating by the number of hits it took to reduce a Galaxy’s shields by 70%. Three K’vort battlecruisers will destroy a Galaxy with one K’vort being destroyed in the process (‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’).

If modders base their stats and weapon figures on what they see onscreen, a more (dare I say) ‘realistic’ game vis-à-vis the TV series, will be made.

Cheers
Geon
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by Dr_Breen »

luv it.

Here's my favorite quote about the Enterprises strenght:

"Captain, they are now locking lasers on us."
"Lasers!?"
"Yes, sir."
"Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?"
"Regulations do call for yellow alert."
"Hmm, a very old regulation. Well, make it so Number One. And, reduce speed... drop main shields, as well."
"May I ask why, sir?"
"In case we decide to surrender to them, Number One... "


Please do a Galaxy Vor'cha comparison as well

my raw guesses: Vorcha is more maneuverable and has greater firepower but can take less damage on shields and hull (only a raw guess)
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by Dr_Breen »

Geon: what are your oppinions about the norexan / valdore ?

some say it's the new Warbird, others say it's just a new cruiser.

i say it IS a new romulan big ass warship and the only reason why they were owned by shinzon was since he didn't want to blow up the enterprise but the valdores were just in the way and had to be eliminated
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Re: D’deridex and Galaxy

Post by geon »

Hi Dr Breen,

I did an article on the Valdore a little while back

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=333&hilit=+valdore

Basically, I see it as a good match for a Sovereign. I agree that Shinzon held back with the Enterprise (since he wanted it in one piece) while letting the Valdores have everything he had.

The big advantage a Valodore would have over a D'deridex would probably be in manouverability. The new faster firing disruptors MAY be better than those on a Warbird (unknown at this stage), and we don't know what type of torpedoes it has.

Hmm, I just clicked onto the Valodore article, and not all of it is there.

Well here it is again in full.

The Valdore

The newest Romulan vessel to be seen on screen is the Valdore class of Romulan Warbird, making its debut appearance in Star Trek Nemesis (2379)

Visually, it is best described as a blending of Romulan and Klingon design philosophies, and more than one author has likened it to a cross between a D’deridex Warbird and a Klingon Bird of Prey. Perhaps the intention of the Romulans was to design a ship with the firepower of the Romulan vessel and the manoeuvrability of the Klingon ship. If so, they seem to have succeeded.

Most authors seem to broadly agree on the overall dimensions of this ship class.

Ex Astris Scientia gives an overall length of 604metres
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... _ships.htm

DITL gives 603.5metres for length and 911.4 metres for beam (width)
http://www.ditl.org/

Memory Alpha gives a 603 metre length.
http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Valdore_type

while The Star Trek Starships Handbook quotes figures of
length of 603.5m and beam of 908.3m
http://trek.escape-committee.co.uk/

While not as large as a D’deridex (whether A or B type), the Valdore exhibits characteristics that make it a more efficient and effective warship. Yet many view the opposite to be the case.

The action at Bassen’s Rift has coloured many perceptions about the combat capabilities of this vessel. Many see it as inferior to the Sovereign class on the basis that since both Valdores were quickly disabled or destroyed while the Enterprise lasted intact through most of the fighting, the Federation ship must be inherently superior.

For example, the Daystrom Institute Technical Library writes of the two Romulan warbirds that;
“Both were disabled in short order, indicating that the Norexan class are not generally a match for the Sovereign class ship…The ships didn't fare too well against the Scimitar, certainly not standing up to anything like as much punishment as the Enterprise-E did”.
http://www.ditl.org/

A view seemingly shared by many. Yet a closer and more careful analysis of the battle reveals a quite different picture.

Let it be made clear now that the Scimitar was ‘pulling its punches’ at the beginning of this engagement.

Shinzon: “Target weapons systems and shield. I don’t want the Enterprise destroyed”

The initial attacks by the Reman Warbird, even at this subdued level, are extremely effective.

Geordi: (at engineering station) “He disabled our warp drive with the first shot. We’ve only got impulse”
Data: “We are losing dorsal shields”

It is clear even at this point that had the Scimitar wanted the Federation ship destroyed, it could have done so in one or two attack runs. The Scimitar’s defensive capabilities are equally impressive. The Enterprise’s retaliation produces negligible results..

Worf: “Minimal damage to the Scimitar”

The Scimitar’s weaponry includes disruptors firing a blue/white bolt which are extremely destructive.

As the Federation ship streaks off to the Bassen Rift, the Scimitar has no trouble keeping up, and indeed overtaking her. So, the Scimitar is faster than a Sovereign Class starship. Shinzon has no doubts as to the superiority of his ship, and is only constrained by his need to take Picard alive. This is the only thing saving the Enterprise from destruction. Shinzon’s behaviour can be likened to a cat playing with a half dead mouse.

Now, contrast this attitude with his anxiety at the appearance of the two Valdore Warbirds. Shinzon immediately leaps into full attack to try to quickly even the odds.

An interesting anomaly can be observed in the appearance of these two Romulan ships. One, Commander Donatra’s Valdore, is in the standard dark green Romulan hull colour. The other, however, has a brown hull (almost Ferengi in colour). What are we to make of this?

Ex Astris Scientia (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... _ships.htm), theorises that the difference may be due to ‘different production lines or different branches of the military’. Possibly, but the results of the battle, as will explained below, argues against a different production line. And as for the ships belonging to different branches of the military, on screen data tends to not support this idea. The Warbirds used by the Tal Shiar in their attack on the founder homeworld (DS9 ‘Improbable Cause’ and ‘The Die Is Cast’) were in standard Romulan green. In fact, every Romulan ship to date from the Next Generation onwards is in this colour.

In the multi ship battle that follows, Shinzon’s first victim is the brown coloured Valdore.

Shinzon: “Target the flanking Warbird. All forward disruptor banks on my mark”

The disruptor barrage batters the Romulan ship, which loses its right wing. The debris in fact collides with the Enterprise, reducing its forward shields to ten percent. Since the brown coloured Warbird is not seen again, we must presume it is either totally destroyed or, if it survived, too badly damaged to continue.

Now, compare what happens with Donatra’s green Valdore.

The Valdore chases the Scimitar, pummelling it with disruptor fire. The Valdore seems to have no difficulty keeping up with the Reman vessel. Shinzon drops his rear cloak to lure her in:

Donatra: “She’s losing her cloak! Stand by all forward disruptor banks!”

Shinzon then does a full stop, the Valdore overshoots and is hit with massed disruptor fire.

The Valdore takes heavy damage, but is intact.

Picard: “Do you have life support?”
Donatra: For the moment. But we’re dead in the water”

This is important to remember. Unlike her brown hued companion, the green coloured Valdore survived the same punishment that destroyed her sister ship. It’s true she is not in the best of shape, but she is intact, and functional enough to send medical teams to the Enterprise at the end of the battle.

This argues that the Valdore has superior defensive capabilities (shields, hull armour etc) than the brown model. This in turn argues against the ships being from different production lines (if that was the case, they would have had identical capabilities).

Given the inferiority of the brown model (at least with regards to defences)
and its unusual hull colour I would propose that the ship is in fact a prototype, or one of the prototypes, of the Valdore design itself. The brown coloured hull may be explained as either an early testing of a possible new hull material (which was found to be inferior), or an unfinished production model (with the green armour waiting to be put on a brown superstructure). Maybe brown is the prime colour of all Romulan ships (with the green material to be added on top).

There is on screen evidence to support this. As the Valdore is hit by the Scimitar’s barrage, we get a closeup view of her hull. Lower structures of the hull are in the same colour as the brown ship. If the brown ship was an unfinished production model awaiting her green armour, the Valdore may have been an almost finished ship (the first production unit of her class) or else a more developed prototype.

We have no way of measuring offensive capabilities except to note that onscreen evidence shows that both the Valdore and the brown ship seem to be using the same kind of new fast firing Romulan disruptor. That this weapon is more powerful than previous Romulan weapons can be seen by the jolting of the Scimitar as it is being hit by Donatra’s weapons.

There is one other observation that should be noted. The Scimitar could not detect these ships before they decloaked. This suggests that the cloaking devices on the Valdore and her brown companion are at least as good as the Scimitar’s.
(but without the fire while under cloak capability)

The rest of the battle involving the Scimitar and the Enterprise need not concern us here, except to add that Shinzon still needs the Enterprise intact to get Picard and is restrained from destroying it outright (which he can easily do).

Data: “We have lost structural integrity on decks twelve through seventeen, sections four through ten”

Enterprise attacks
Scimitar retaliates

Data: Captain, we have lost ventral shielding on deck twenty nine”
Data: “We have exhausted our compliment of photon torpedoes. Phaser banks are down to four percent”
Date: “The Scimitar’s shields are still at seventy percent. It would make no difference sir”

Real damage is done to the Scimitar only when the Enterprise rams it. The Enterprise’s longer survival as opposed to the Valdores is not due to any inherent defensive superiority but to the different tactical requirements of the battle. Shinzon needed the Enterprise intact, he didn’t need the Romulan ships.

One might argue that the Romulans were eager to invade the Federation because of the large number of Valdores were already in the fleet. However, the appearance of two differing models (in this case either a prototype and near complete production model or an unfinished production and a more developed prototype) would argue against such an assumption being made. If the type had been common, surely two standard (green) models would have been used.

As to when the type could have been developed, we have a small window of opportunity. No Valdore was seen during any battles of the Dominion War, the main Romulan ships being D’deridex Warbirds. The Dominion War ended in 2375. Four years separate that war’s end from ST Nemesis (2379).

This is ample time for a new design to be developed and tested. The fact that the current examples are either prototypes or initial production models means that the potential of the design has yet to be fully realized. They are still basically in the testing stages.

This situation does suggest that the type was just entering or about to enter the Romulan navy, and that it was to be the newest and presumably the most advanced member of the fleet. This may also explain why the first production unit and pre production models were rushed to the Bessen Rift to confront Shinzon, as being deemed most likely and available to successfully oppose the Scimitar (the bulk of the regular fleet being near the Federation border in readiness to invade).

The Scimitar itself, having been built in secret, would have been as big a shock to the Romulans as to Picard.

A final note on the class designation.

Many sites describe this ship as a ‘Norexan’ class of vessel. Another designation given is ‘Mogai’. Star Trek Starship Handbooks http://trek.escape-committee.co.uk,/ uses both, giving ‘Mogai’ as the Romulan title, and ‘Norexan’ as the Federation name.

I am not sure where these names come from, nor am I certain whether these are officially recognised names or not. In any case, if the above reconstruction (prototype and production or near production model) is valid, then the class name will come from the first production ship constructed, in this case the Valdore.

So, until any official material to the contrary is produced, this vessel type should be referred to as a Valdore Class Warbird.

Conclusion

It is plain that the different results seen between the Sovereign and Valdore types in this battle against the Scimitar is due solely to the different tactical situations each faced from the Reman ship. Until the very end of the battle, the Enterprise faced a restrained attack from Shinzon. Both Valdores, on the other hand, were met with the full offensive power of the Reman ship the moment they entered the battle. That Donatra’s ship survived at all is a testament to the type’s durability.

So, how does this new Romulan ship stack up to the Federation’s Sovereign class?

Bearing in mind also, that the Valdores seen are either prototypes or early production models (later models will naturally be far more effective), some general observations can be made from the movie.

Weaponry – Difficult to determine without a head to head clash. However, both the Romulan and Federation types scored damage on the Scimitar. The Romulans did it with rapid fire disruptors. No torpedoes seem to have been fired. The Federation had to use phasers, photons and quantum torpedoes, and even then did minimal damage.

If the offensive relationship between the Valdore and Sovereign approximates that previously seen between the D’deridex and Galaxy, then offensively, the Valdore should have a slight lead. At worst, they may have rough parity.

Defensive Systems – Here, the Federation has traditionally had a lead, and given the Sovereigns greater bulk and better Federation shielding, this advantage is likely to be maintained. But given the Valdore’s survival, the gap may be closing.

Manouverability - Both the Enterprise and the Scimitar moved like bricks during this picture. The Valdores on the other hand, performed manoeuvres worthy of the most agile Bird of Prey. So there is no question that in terms of manoeuvrability, the Valdores were clearly superior to both Reman and Federation ships.

Speed – The Scimitar could easily overtake the Enterprise, but the Valdore had no trouble keeping up with the Scimitar. This suggests a speed advantage for the Romulan ship.

Cloak - The Enterprise could not detect the Scimitar through her cloak. Similarly, the Scimitar was unaware of the cloaked Romulan ships. If we assume the Scimitars sensors are at least as good as those on the Enterprises, then the Sovereign should have just as much trouble detecting the cloaked Romulan vessels.

Overall then, the Valdore has advantages in manoeuvrability, speed and cloaking ability; the Sovereign is superior in defensive systems. Offensively, they may be roughly equal.

Hardly the inferior vessel many have claimed the type to be.

Tentative development history:

2375-9 – Valdore development models

2379 - The Valdore – first production model

Sites consulted in the writing of this article:

Ex Astris Scientia
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... _ships.htm

Memory Alpha
http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Valdore_type

Star Trek The Final Frontier
http://www.sttff.net/norexan.html

Daystrom Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org/

Star Trek Starship Handbooks
http://trek.escape-committee.co.uk/


Pictures taken from:

Ex Astris Scientia
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... _ships.htm

Trekcore
http://movies.trekcore.com/nemesis/


Script quotes taken from Nemesis pdf at Trekcore
http://movies.trekcore.com/nemesis/
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