Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

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Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by ruthlessferengi » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:24 pm

Well, i tested new windwed UDM in mp with gentle... the good news is Klingons are back... with ram problem fixed, weapons changed, they are very much playable and fun,... mpr has nothing to do with it... the bad news: in big battles, on desktops, lag is horrendous...i stagger like a drunk man can't evaluatge shields, do individual targeting... what was working on old lappy xp, is not working on fast desktop... i understand the new ships will solve the problem. It will take time. i am very grateful for the effort and promise of the new engine but for mp setting this engine is currently not ready and please please let me know how can i go back to the old engine if possible... With new models, lets test it first and then reintroduce it. I care about this game and am grateful but lets regroup and go back to old thing until the new tool is working....Please.

edit: ran mpr installer and uninstalled the engine, games seems to run in unwindowed mode. will test in mp see if made a diff
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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by thunderchero » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:32 pm

ruthlessferengi wrote:edit: ran mpr installer and uninstalled the engine, games seems to run in unwindowed mode. will test in mp see if made a diff
This will not work much more editing would be needed, you will find that in any combat you will crash. this is due to replacement gifs and palette count over 128.

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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by ruthlessferengi » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:41 pm

thunderchero wrote:
ruthlessferengi wrote:edit: ran mpr installer and uninstalled the engine, games seems to run in unwindowed mode. will test in mp see if made a diff
This will not work much more editing would be needed, you will find that in any combat you will crash. this is due to replacement gifs and palette count over 128.

thunderchero

Ok.... so... how long it would take to replace the models to make them compatible with new engine? do we know it will work? i understand this is an experimental mod but for mp this current mod is UNPLAYABLE unless by playalbe you mean intell wars, diplomacy, colonization, SP style AI attacks, etc.... any serious mp battle = while it processes - it will work after a long a painful period when u can't operate your fleet the way it was designed - is out of question. I suppose SP is the preferred way to play botf nowadays and mpr in its' current form will work for that... but dudes, no mp? this is just wrong....
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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by Flocke » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:31 pm

ruthless, you still can play previous versions or other mods in mp or try a computer with better graphic card (no FSAA is almost ridiculous, what graphic card is this, intel oboard chip like zerochance reported? if not try updating your drivers, might help)
be a bit patient, am sry new graphics doesn't work optimal for everyone right away, it lags on my 7 year old system, too
3D mode runs smooth here though, you can test it already, switch render mode in mpr++.ini to the following:

Code: Select all

[mpr]
RENDERMODE=3D
right now there's only one [edit: none in udm] replacement ship for federation included (see ship database)
but if you don't care on phasers and effects, you can extend the HobMappings.xml with a text editor to render replacements for all of the other ships too, some ships to test with are included, look through the files in database folder
with that you can already play in new 3D mode
it's an experimental release with many new features, remember :roll:
Last edited by Flocke on Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by ruthlessferengi » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:27 am

Flocke, I understand the issue. You work hard on this project and I understand this is infuriating if someone is pissing on your campfire. BUT... It's NOT a hardware problem as u suggest. Like i said, with older udm versions I was able to process 100 vs 100 ship battles on MUCH older XP lap top with NO videocard across the atlantic over public internet with NO lag. And this desktop has an 1 gig video card that shud handle most of the stuff circa last century manufacturing date....

This is an issue with the current engine and the ship models utilized, as u previously suggested, as they don't match. While I appreciate the dedication and talent u guys here represent the reality is the new engine is NOT ready for these models/mod in its' current shape. I am not the creator of this wonderful mod so I am not dictating or suggesting how things shud work on your end of things... but may I suggest that the new engine was released prematurely?

ANd yes I'll go back to older mod version designed for older engine for now. How else can u play an epic game? Intel each other to death?

As a heavy duty end user of the wonderful line of product u represent I just ask u to listen to what I am saying and may be back off and don't release stuff that is not ready. THe D version of the udm 3 is better then C with the ram fix and klingon tune up so all I ask is to re-release D with older version graphic engine while the models are being converted.

Am I alone on this one here? If so, fine, I can't play mp by myself anyway but i suspect there are other frustrated users out there who would back me up? Anybody? you can't have an epic game with the lag.... peace... and what's up with the eye rolls dude?
Last edited by ruthlessferengi on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by thunderchero » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:28 am

Hi RF,

To remove MPR++ from UDM 3.0.1da

first download and use uninstaller in mpr++ installer/uninstaller on both versions (UDM and UDML folder/locations)

next open each versions stbof.res with UE and add every file in this rar file after extracting

256 replacements.rar

Note 1. this has not been tested vs mpr++ version
Note 2. I hope you have better luck with 1024 x 768 than me and xDx had so expect some players unable to use these files.

good luck

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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by ruthlessferengi » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:37 am

ok, I've stated my case. I just wanna add one more thing.... if the creators and users don't have the same vision for the game, it really is a lost cause no matter how great u guys r or how talented I may think myself to be. I can't program or change crap... But i can take the mods you've created and take them where u don't care to go. I honestly think in trying to make the game look "nice" and "crisp" with new res and windowed mode the functionality was lost. the maximum functionality is revealed in mp, NOT SP... you guys may not appreciate this as i don't see you playing mp but what can i say?
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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by thunderchero » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:12 am

Hi RF,

I just want to say you are wrong on most of your points. Flockes and myself are putting every effort into keeping all the new features MP compatiable. As to the timing of the release this must be done early. No one here has the resources that a major gaming company has. I am just guessing here but I would say there is 100,000 different video cards all with different drivers and configurations, while most are basicly the same we can only test on the equipment we have and this is only a small percent of what is available so yes we depend on feedback from users here who are willing to test new things. So yes we expect failures but we always hope for the best possible out come. Each problem reported is looked at and a solution has/will been found.

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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by ZeroChance » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:50 am

RUNS INTO THIS THREAD AND POURS A BUCKET OF WATER ON THE FLAMES

.... I think everyone is getting a little ahead of themselves. And I don't think anyone is "wrong" here.

I think a viable solution would be this: (keep in mind this is from someone who has not yet had the chance to test MPR++ and the updates to UDM / GALM in MP yet)

Flocke - keep working on it, you've said yourself, iirc, it's not complete yet. We do appreciate your work here, don't think for a moment we don't.

RF - I get the impression you feel alone at the moment because no one else has yet to mention lag in combat or overall gameplay. If I experience the same thing then you and I can still game in MP, it's not the end of the world. Also, if we're not the only ones with issues, obviously others will go back to the older versions and wait patiently until the completed (or just improved) MPR++ is released.

Okay, so that being said, hopefully more people will MP test this thing soon and come back here (or in the MPR thread) with some constructive criticism. Even if we all try it out and find it laggy in MP, then at least we give Flocke something to improve upon for the next release.

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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by gentle » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:28 am

I think that you are not yet "The last of the Mohicans" RF but for sure you are the Oldest one. I tried to say smth about lag during combat but i don't know how to be vocal, with 1 frame/sec during combat you can do much in large battles, just Group Charge, wait and pray :) Like the Light Cavalry! I not have yet the occasion to see the ram fix in action, one of the great things this new version come with because of the bad handling of the ship. I had 7 assault cruisers in the fleet yesterday and i try for 1 minute to find them and select but it was impossible.. zoom out and zoom in, rotate camera.. there was in fact only random pictures on my monitor. I am sure it will be fix this somehow so we and the thousands of our multiplayer fellow will be happy. Until then, we listens some classical musical, drink some old wine, feeling young again and play the good old UDM(you may use ram until i will commit suicide)

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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by Flocke » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:56 am

Oh man, all calm down, speciall ruthless boy
so you have a 1gig card, that's first info you gave on it
that it doesn't support FSAA is strange, but good to know, might be a problem with ogre or your driver, but I'll check for capabilities next release
as for speed, I ALWAYS said and told that the old MPR rendering is slow and can cause lag
try 3D mode or when not in combat or object database press F7 for the test mesh to see how it performs

the MPR++ release is early, but not rushed and incomplete. It's the first version you can fully play with.
I'm aware there are problems on different systems and when I find time I try to fix them.
Current version was tested on multiple systems and it worked ok, but as thunderchero told we need your experiences. I myself only have a 7 year old desktop and an even slower crappy old laptop to test with, and I don't expect you to buy me a new one, eh?
Both support FSAA though, so I'm surprised your's doesn't, as this is a very very very basic feature.
And at least on my 7 year old desktop with not too many ships udm runs smooth, so it should perform better on newer systems. (Admittedly my 256MB graphic card was a good one, not high end though)

That latest UDM was released with mpr++ only was not my plan, it's not my mod and mpr++ is an independent project. Instead decision was made by thunderchero for practical reasons.
He simply encountered issues he couldn't solve easily for the old engine, and cause of all the changes as well as 1024 project he called it an EXPERIMENTAL release.
I'm of the opinion the community deserves to get a view on all this progress, but if you think different, continue to rant.

Question to thunderchero, is it possible to make a release with old 800x600 resolution and mpr++ not applied eventually? could that fix the troubles? and would it mean much work?

Edit: Oh, btw one good news I can deduce from what you posted ruthless, beside laggy combat (which is no news) mpr++ seems to perform well in mp, that's good. :)

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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by thunderchero » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:28 am

Flocke wrote:Question to thunderchero, is it possible to make a release with old 800x600 resolution and mpr++ not applied eventually? could that fix the troubles? and would it mean much work?
I have already uploaded files to allow non MPR++ game play. While MP games have not been tested I feel it should work. (from testing in past on ECM with and without ship pack)

As to removing 1024 this would be much more work but not impossible. But if done I doubt it would be compatible with current version after so many changes.

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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by Tethys » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:57 am

I think there are more pressing matters to attend to rather than 800x600 Tc, if you know what I mean.

I suppose some may not be able to play the new UDM, but GALM is currently being developed (no release as of yet) with 1024 and will be an mpr++ independent until project has been fully tested and working with models.
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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by xDx » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:22 pm

thunderchero wrote:
As to removing 1024 this would be much more work but not impossible. But if done I doubt it would be compatible with current version after so many changes.
TC I don't think that would be a good idea. The idea is to move forward not backward with these wonderful new projects. As you and only two or three others (Angel is the only one truly active atm) are getting the models converted. It is a steady but slow process with everyone's real life issues constantly getting in the way :wink: but this is the way of things. We all need to be patient until the models are ready for implementation (which should be a few weeks my guess) then we can truly see if MPR++ is compatible in MP. So TC I applaud your hard work so far and thank you both as a MP and a SP fan of this game and hope you move forward with the models so we can see MPR++ as it was intended to be "fully functional and operational." :D

To my MP brothers... I understand your frustrations as an end user you want the shiny new toys working on all thrusters and be completely perfect. I agree with you but that is never the case with any game. The problem is that even games released from big companies rarely have everything perfect on the initial release, in fact, I can't think of a single game that has not released a patch within the first weeks of release to fix something. Flocke is ONE man, thunderchero is ONE man... they do not have the support of a contingent of programmers to tell them what will work with what video card and what won't. Flocke on the initial thread for MPR++ released said that there would be lag issues in combat and this was an EXPERIMENTAL release. Besides, combat in MP with old engine if we remember just some weeks ago still lags like slow snail shit on a cold day and even can disconnect MP games most of the time so really I don't know what is different that we complain now :(

Bottom line to my MP brethren and to people who strictly play SP experiencing problems with MPR patches or 1024 patches... if you are not willing to help solve the problems then play an old version of UDM or other mods (the links I am sure can still be activated or still are idk) until the models are ready to be converted OR try replacing the gifs that TC took the time to create and remove MPR++ from UDM d version. The decision is yours. If you are experiencing problems and would like to help test and continue to help troubleshoot the problems when time permits to your real life issues, I thank you for being patient and I'm sure Flocke and thunderchero will be grateful for any assistance they can get.

@ RF: I am sorry if you feel you are truly alone or are preaching to the converted regarding the direction the game is taking :( BUT you are not alone in your thoughts and yes MP is still where its at with this game but please show the patience and clarity of thought you have exhibited over the last year I have known you that gives me a high opinion of you :) Things will improve dude and until then lets play old UDM or BoP or GALM or ECM or Fluids or TMPM. Many options to choose from :D
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Re: Windowed UDM in MP: good news and bad news...

Post by ZeroChance » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:10 pm

Okay, now that I've had my share of combat in UDM with MPR++ I agree with RF for the time being. At the moment, it is unplayable in an MP setting. I've begun a game with gentle, playing as Klings and the battles I've had with no more than 30 ships total are very laggy. Gentle was mentioning the same thing for him... so not sure if this is completely MPR related or just my crappy vid card.

Anyhow, I'm really excited for what will happen in regards to MPR in the near future :)

Until then, it's back to non-MPR udm for me.

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