raider II survival vs ram

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ruthlessferengi
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raider II survival vs ram

Post by ruthlessferengi » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:40 pm

Old post... relevant for raider and, i suppose rom II destroyer

In single player mode, Ram command is virtually never used by AI.... However, in MP it is a formidable tactical approach vs variety of ships, particularly Raider II. This has been bugging me - fairly expensive Raider II, the most superior destroyer in botf when it comes to firepower, is an easy prey to dirt cheap Cardassian Destroyer II... So did a little experiment...

Raider II vs Cardi destroyer II:

Setting: Cardies Ram all the time, Ferengi - vary ....


36 green Raider vs 36 regular Cardi


Ferengi Charge the time: F vs C

the only test with 18 vs 18 ships
1st 6 vs 15
2nd 1 vs 10
3rd 0 vs 8

the rest, 36 vs 36 ships

1st 9 vs 32
2nd 0 vs 27

1st 9 vs 32
2nd 0 vs 27

i.e. Ferengi charge command = suicide mission, heaviest losses on first turn, latter two outcomes likely most representative…


Ferengi Evade all the time: F vs C

1st 36 vs 24
2nd 22 vs 0

1st 36 vs 25
2nd 19 vs 0

1st 36 vs 18
2nd game crashed…

1st 36 vs 24
2nd 29 vs 0

1st 36 vs 26
2nd game crashed

i.e. Ferengi will win, with minimal to no losses on first turn, but there is a good chance of substantial losses (30-50%) after second turn


Ferengi Strafe all the time: F vs C
1st 33 vs 25
2nd 25 vs 6
3rd 25 vs 0

1st 27 vs 29
2nd 27 vs 3
3rd 27 vs 0

1st 36 vs 21
2nd 23 vs 18
3rd 23 vs 0

1st 33 vs 23
2nd 22 vs 4
3rd 22 vs 0

1st 30 vs 28
2nd 25 vs 8
3rd 25 vs 0

From tactical point of view, Ferengi lose more on the first turn BUT they consistently end up behind cardiasians with both parties tail to tail. Also, damage to cardies is MUCH more significant than after 1st turn evade with most of the hull and shields of cardies at near zero. There is usually some loss at the second turn but it would be interesting to see if after 1st strage, 2nd turn evade is used. So I did just that:

Ferengi strafe, get behind Cardies, then evade: F vs C

1st 27 vs27
2nd 23 vs 1
3rd 23 vs 0

1st 30 vs 27
2nd crash

1st 31 vs 29
2nd 23 vs 1
3rd 23 vs 1

1st 30 vs 28
2nd crash

1st 30 vs 28
2nd crash

1st 31 vs 27
2nd crash


I did not have enough patience to persue this any further.

The moral of the story is, when matched in number (but being junior in experience), the only viable strategy would be either evade or strafe.

Evade will allow you to preserve maximum number of ships but will put them nose to nose with cardies, and on the next turn cardies will take out a lot of ships by ramming. Strafe is guaranteed to get you behind the carides, while inflicting maximum damage to their hull and shields. It would make sense that the second command should be evade, but for some reason, strafe and evade fared equally effective in that setting...


Probably the most effective overall strategy is strafe. Experience is a huge plus.

I did not test hurry but I suspect it is close to charge/circle and will result in Ferengi anhialation...

Another morale of the story Ferengi is more likely to survive if matched in number I suspect if 1 vs 2 ratio is used, Ferengi won't do well. In that case, one would likely benefit from having a few extra scouts to serve as decoy for Cardies. Cardies may use scouts as well, and that undermines chances of Ferengi as well. This remains to be tested.

These results will apply to MP games mostly, as well SP games when you have to deal with pesky Raider II in UM 3 ...
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Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:00 pm

ruthlessferengi wrote:In single player mode, Ram command is virtually never used by AI
I thought it too. Don't feel too safe. It's rarely but painful (only seen doing Cards AI heretofore).

Never had so many Evade crashes.
Which mod was used ?
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.

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Post by ruthlessferengi » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:47 pm

vanilla... one computer was vista the other xp... i blame it on vista...
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Post by Gowron » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:37 pm

It would be funny to introduce cheap, fast "ramboats" with a strong hull and no shields or weapons. Not very balanced, but the idea makes me smile, and it's an evil smile ;) :D
Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote: Never had so many Evade crashes.
Unfortunately, the "Evade" command is somewhat bugged. There had been quite a few reports on related crashes on the old forums.
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Post by ruthlessferengi » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:51 pm

Gowron, i am sort of smiling too... painful, wry kinda smile, with a tinge of bile...

sure - make these things fast too - but expensive.... create an UnBalanced MOD for the BOP... but, for goodness sake, give ferengi a striker..
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Post by trevtones » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:58 pm

Ramboat Class Cruiser....has a nice ring to it! :-)
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Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:05 pm

Gowron wrote:Unfortunately, the "Evade" command is somewhat bugged. There had been quite a few reports on related crashes on the old forums.
Agreed - but I've seen mostly for single ships Evade and oftener Retreat.
Never so many crashes for whole formation Evade.
trevtones wrote:Ramboat Class Cruiser....has a nice ring to it! :)
A space Crash derby tournament....could be a nice idea !
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.

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Post by sean_west » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:25 am

If we are thinking about ram boats, it would be good to pair them up with a carrier.

I know this would have to have transwarp, but if it had no weapons, really weak shields and hull, but massive cost and maintainance, it would prevent people from having on with every fleet.

This way, the rammers would be "carried and then deployed" for the battle.
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Post by stardust » Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:16 am

this would all work for us lot, but i doubt the AI will know what to do with them.

besides, you can make these things as expensive as you like and i'll guarantee if the AI built them they'd cheat and build enough to bankrupt ferenginar 10 times over :lol:

Evade has never crashed as far as i remember, mine's usually retreating scouts.
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Post by sean_west » Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:22 am

If the shiplist is structured right, rammers and carriers being say scouts (for example) further down the list, the AI will not build them. Other wise, your fleet would enter orbit and face a million of them!!!

As for the crash, I did not have a problem until I installed the new UDMIII. Now, when the Feds oberth retreats the screen goes black.
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