Season 2 Tournament Discussion

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Season 2 Tournament Discussion

Post by thunderchero » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:17 pm

Here is a place you can smack mouth each other :wink:

But play nice.

also for some of the player that might need help connecting to war zone you might ask here

also you could setup practice matches here.

would like to keep signup post mainly for just signup.

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Post by carcher » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:02 am

just in case i reach the dizzy heights of the tourny again :roll: has anyone got some tips,hints and pointers for playing at t4 level?
thx
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for the world is hollow and i have touched the sky....and one day mickar.....one day.....one sweet day......HAS ARRIVED!! HAPPY DAYS :D

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Post by Flocke » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:49 am

carcher wrote:has anyone got some tips,hints and pointers for playing at t4 level?
Sure! Just go in with a scout and wind up the white flag! :P

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Post by carcher » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:04 am

I actually meant usfull tips to WIN the game :lol:
for the world is hollow and i have touched the sky....and one day mickar.....one day.....one sweet day......HAS ARRIVED!! HAPPY DAYS :D

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Post by RSE_Chris » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:51 am

I think you are fairly well prepared. You build the right ships and you pick the right races. From playing you many times Carcher my only tip evident from our games would be to play a bit more aggresively.

If your opponent is not confident he can overcome you, he will not attack. - Remember that and you will be fine. :)

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Post by Pigman » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:57 pm

The accepted wisdom for first choice empire in Vanilla seems to be Klingon, particularly at the tournement's T4 or T5 level, with a good Cardie player having a fighting chance

Are there any stats from previous tournements showing empires chosen and results?

Bearing in mind that game save is sent to tournement organizer, this should be quite easy to do

Even with no random events selected there are too many random factors, particularly with the start position, to compare BOTF with chess, but would it be fair to say that 1st choice of empire is roughly equivalent to playing as white in chess?

Also, although in early rounds restarts are allowed if both players agree, who would want to admit that they have a weak starting position and risk the other player saying "no thanks, I'm happy with what I've got" and immediately putting you at a disadvatage?

If I was the player being asked if I also wanted a restart, I'd say no anyway, even if I had a pants starting position, just to put my opponent on the back foot. I know he(she) has a poor starting position, so will play defensively most likely and he(she) would suspect I had a good start position (or now that I've posted this wouldn't be sure)

Either way I've most likely gained more useful info about my opponent than they have about me!

And if they try some kind of double bluff i.e. offering a restart when they actually have a good start position, I would probably on a random basis and only if my start position poor, accept their offer maybe 1 in 10 times

This way an opponent may actually restart themselves out of a good start postion

Maybe this is too much analysis and if I'm no good anyway it probably won't matter, but IMO allowing restarts in any round is a waste of time. Better to work with the hand you are dealt and keep your opponent guessing!

So what are your thoughts on best and next best empire in vanilla and does anyone agree that restarts are not a good idea?

BTW, I'm not suggesting a change of rules for this tournement

Regards

Pigman

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Post by thunderchero » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:16 pm

Pigman wrote:Maybe this is too much analysis and if I'm no good anyway it probably won't matter, but IMO allowing restarts in any round is a waste of time. Better to work with the hand you are dealt and keep your opponent guessing!
The reasons the rule was made. This was put in for first time players since these games uses small galaxy, And Both player have a good chance of being only 5 sectors apart, A first time player would need more turns to build a good fleet to put up a good battle.

note: right now 1/3 of people that have signed up have no or very little experience.

This is not a rule but if 2 experienced player are matched up they should ignore this rule.

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Post by Pigman » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:55 pm

Hi thunderchero

Thanks for response
The reasons the rule was made. This was put in for first time players since these games uses small galaxy, And Both player have a good chance of being only 5 sectors apart, A first time player would need more turns to build a good fleet to put up a good battle.
But the experienced player is under no obligation to do a restart even if the noobie wants one, even if they are only 5 sectors apart. In the circumstance you mention above, I would say "tough luck" and go for the jugular, after all this is cut-throat competition, not gentlemanly sparring

Even as a noobie I wouldn't want to admit any weakness and BTW in MP terms, at least over internet I am a noobie myself, but have been playing the game a long time

I don't disagree with your sentiment in giving noobies a chance not to get crushed immediately and I'm not sure if there's a perfect solution (predefined maps have there attractions but are open to cheating)

However, I believe that carcher is a relative noobie and he got to the final, so let's not underestimate how quickly a player can learn this game (Well done carcher BTW)

BTW, how would the players know they were 5 sectors apart if restarts have to happen on turn 1?

Also, any views on relative strength of empires?

Regards

Pigman

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Post by thunderchero » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:32 pm

@Pigman,

point taken, and will be considered for next tounament.

I don't know if this rule was even used by anyone in last tournament.

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Post by Pigman » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:11 am

FUTURE TOURNEMENT SUGGESTION

I have an idea for using preset maps. It may have been suggested before, but probably not the way I'd implement it, so please bear with me

Let's say we stick with current proposals for galaxy size, type, tech level, no randoms, number of minors etc......but we have a standard galaxy map for everyone, which has been balanced to take into account the relative strengths of the different empires.......

and to avoid cheating we let everyone have the map/turn 1 game save well in advance so that everyone can run as many simulations as they like


What's the benefit of this arrangement and what about the downsides?

Benefits

How many of us had the fun taken out of their game by having a start position that has both extra systems only having maximum populations of around 150 million, whilst it turns out our opponent has both extra systems over 300 million?

In this scenario it doesn't matter how good you are, even an average player will probably cream you!

It may even allow players to choose the empire that they like playing (maybe even the Feds) rather than the one that they think will most likely deliver the result

It guarantees a relatively level playing field which is fair for all and no one can blame a bad start position for their defeat

Downsides

For me the only downside that is obvious is that a big part of the fun of BOTF is in the random nature of the start postions and in discovering your new galaxy

Weighing the Pros & Cons

For me this seems easy. If the only drawback is the loss of excitement in discovering your new galaxy and in wondering what sort of start position you'll get, I'd say keep this for single player games or for "friendly" MP games

I'll take a balanced and fair start that gives me a reasonable chance of victory with any of the 5 empires if I play well any day, if all I lose is the mystique of a new galaxy!

In any case we've already moved in this direction by taking out random events and either all or most of the minor races, both of which to me are also part of the fun of the game

We all have a bit of Kirk in us and like to beat the odds, maybe just so that we can hear Spock say that "random factors seem to have worked in our favour", but if we're going to take some randomness out of tournement games, I say let's take it all out

Would be very interested in views on this and in particular again any views on relative strengths of different empires

Also, I don't like the idea of map editing as I wonder if this in itself might add some extra unstableness to the game, but would be willing to try several start positions until some balanced ones appear

Regards

Pigman

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Post by jonboylondon » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:13 am

I get where you are coming from Pigman, and to a certain extent i agree with you regarding random elements....

However - I have no desire to rehash old arguaments (Pigman i dont mean you by the way as I believe that you were not signed up to the website at the time :wink: ), this debate became very tired and boring :( , and as a result of the various views on the start and the format - we lost players who refused to participate. 8O Thunder pulled out and Sean ended up taking over!!!

I myself am no fan of any AI setting other than impossible and would prefer to have many minors.... (and indeed i got a real doughnut of a position in the quater finals being stuck in the middle and attacked by all four empires very early!!!!) However (and i think most will agree...) I will happilly go with the flow so i have no issues with the settings, maps or restarts. :P

-----------------------

In relation to the strengths of other empires..... Klingons rule at T5 no question... However T4 is a different kettle of fish... I expect to see a few people such as RSE Macky and ruthless (as self confessed Ferengi experts) take up their little pointed tooth favourites and kick some arse...!!

Also the Cardies are poo, poo, poo at T4 with crap ships and a real research defecit. Much better to choose the Feds and with several self confessed Federation experts signed up (Carcher, Sean) and pound away the research advantage. Also lets not forget the minors.... Conquring every thing in sight may be the T5 way but with two systems.... having a developed Vulcan join up to your empire would be a very significant advantage!!!

The Roms are nicelly rounded too (reasearch,intel,cloaks....) and cloaked swarms work very well with the destroyer 2 being nice,nimble and packing a punch. Is this gonna be the choice of Flocke maybe?

Anywho... Im rambling a bit and i suspect most will stick with gagh chomping chums anyway... :roll:

JBL
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Post by Flocke » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:20 am

jonboylondon wrote:The Roms are nicelly rounded too (reasearch,intel,cloaks....) and cloaked swarms work very well with the destroyer 2 being nice,nimble and packing a punch. Is this gonna be the choice of Flocke maybe?
Really? :lol:
You've scanned my brain, did you?
I've to make an internal investigation of the Tal Shiar...

No, in my opinion Romulans are even better than Klingon on tech4 and 5!
You just have to know how to play them. Ok, Klingon is great as well, but I've had more than one game as Rom vs Kling and am prefering Rom to Fed, Ferg and Card, on high tech lvl, although Card is really great with it's ram tactics.
Of cause it's depending on systems and map as well, so this is just my own analysis of general relation.

Fed and Ferg are nearly useless. Ferg is only good with it's raider II on tech4 that he may research and with having masses of ships, but Federation is like suicide on high tech. You won't have a chance winning the tourny with the Federation, that's a fact. T4 or 5 doesn't matter for the Federation - in both cases they are worst choise with a real big distance to 2nd worst choise, the Ferengi *hehe* 8)

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Post by Pigman » Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:52 pm

Thanks JBL & Flocke

That's the sort of feedback I was looking for, of course it may be that some of the experienced players don't want to show their hand before the tournement

Your right about me not knowing about previous arguments about starting positions as I only signed up in last month or two

BTW, even if the arguments got boring I believe I have applied Spock-like logic to my conclusions

Now to relative strengths of empires:-

I have just played out 4 games to tournement 1st round/early rounds spec, i.e. Small, Irregular, Few Minors, No Randoms, T5, Normal AI etc and had the following results:-

Played Cardassians first and won in 112 turns (winning is complete domination, owning all minors and no other surviving empires)

As Ferengi next, I achieved same in 125 turns

I won with Klingons in 92 turns (only built Scouts and Heavy Cruisers apart from Colony ships and Troop transports)

With the Romulans I finished in 91 turns and didn't build a single Warbird

The maps were all different but with approximately similar conditions

Didn't bother to use Feds as even though I like playing Feds, because I agree at T5 and particularly in a competitive game they're pants!

Don't like ships that only move 1 square at a time and ships unlikely to upgrade in a tournement game, hence my choice of ships, which meant I had to be very careful when conducting planetary assaults

The only empire I allowed myself to build such slow ships was as Ferengi, as you really need Maurauders for planetary assault when using Ferengi IMO

About tournement rules, I will stress again that I, like you JBL am happy to go with the flow for this tournement. I'm just suggesting an alternative for the future and I suspect that my version of using predefined saves was not considered in the previous debates, mainly as I'm suggesting that everyone has the game save in advance and can play it out to their heart's content before the actual MP game is played (Radical, I know!)

Regards

Pigman

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Post by RSE_Chris » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:22 pm

Pigman:

Game re-starts:
I can understand what you mean about not being obliged to restart, and being dubious about restarting because you then know the opponent has rubbish system. I for one will always offer, wether I have good systems or not, as I believe it to be good practice. I also always offer my opponent first choice of race regardless of their skill level. These are personal rules in which I follow, I am not suggesting you do the same, just offering an insight from another perspective.

Maps:

To keep it short, preset maps were discussed previously. In my opinion, custom maps should not be made. Being in a tournament, if you can’t overcome the obstacles you face, then you don’t deserve to win. BOTF is not meant to be fair, and tactics should be adjusted according to your situation. I would, however, reluctantly go along with preset maps if it was decided as it would give new players a better chance.

P.S - It depends how you class a newbie, but Carcher certainly isn't one. :)

JBL:

Cardassians poor at tech 4? I would like to prove you wrong on your suggestion!

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Post by Pigman » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:56 pm

Thanks for response RSE_Chris
Pigman:

Game re-starts:
I can understand what you mean about not being obliged to restart, and being dubious about restarting because you then know the opponent has rubbish system. I for one will always offer, wether I have good systems or not, as I believe it to be good practice. I also always offer my opponent first choice of race regardless of their skill level. These are personal rules in which I follow, I am not suggesting you do the same, just offering an insight from another perspective.
I'm not sure if this indicates supreme confidence in your own ability to win with second choice empire and any start position or simply an honourable and gentlemanly set of ethics. I can respect either equally and like me you obviously relish a challenge
Maps:
To keep it short, preset maps were discussed previously. In my opinion, custom maps should not be made. Being in a tournament, if you can’t overcome the obstacles you face, then you don’t deserve to win. BOTF is not meant to be fair, and tactics should be adjusted according to your situation. I would, however, reluctantly go along with preset maps if it was decided as it would give new players a better chance.
Actually I'm with you in a way as I like to have to overcome the unexpected as well, however, where I think I disagree is that preset maps would be balanced for all 5 empires and would therefore encourage players to select their favoured empire and not just the one they think will give them best chance to win and in addition to this it is more likely to ensure that the best player wins.........with the current set up a newbies best chance may well be an inbalance in start position in their favour, whereas my suggestion ensures a relatively level playing field and therefore best players are less likely to fall to unfortunate start positions

Also I would have unedited maps that have been generated from within BOTF and assessed for balance by a panel of experienced players

Having said all of this, I will stress again, as I have done on almost every post I've made, that I am not in any way suggesting changes to rules for current tournement as we are far too close to make changes anyway and I've had a slap for provoking the debate, so I believe the subject should be left until after the season 2 tournement and then revisited

Regards

Pigman

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