Tournament 3 - Season 1 2009 Pre-Discussion

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Tournament 3 - Season 1 2009 Pre-Discussion

Post by Flocke » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:52 pm

This post holds outdated content so be aware if reading it!

----------------


This topic is meant for organizing and discussing the upcoming Tournament Season 3.

Have updated the proposal due to comments I got in this thread. All updated got marked coloured. ;)

Ok, so far I got input that last tournament lacked low tech as well as people being interested in playing the bop mod. Additionally it seems to be a good idea to use the upcoming 1.0.3 patch from thunderchero as 'new' vanilla. After some discussion, it turned out that most people prefer a vanilla only tourney and bigger maps.

My idea of tournament 3 conditions currently is the following:
(with vanilla meaning no mod but 1.0.3 patch)
----------------------------

having a plain tournament in which all people that lost in main tourney bracket will continue fighting, like JBL suggested
Questions: Shall winner of looser bracket get a second chance fighting winner of main bracket? Shall there be an additional special rank?

all games 1vs1, irregular, vanilla

1st: tech5, normal difficulty, many minors, random off, small map
2nd: tech4, hard, many minors, random off, small map
3rd: tech3, impossible, some minors, random on but BORG=OFF, small map
semi final: tech3, impossible, some minors, random on but BORG=OFF, medium map
final: tech3, impossible, no minors, random on but BORG=OFF, big map

matchup as well as first race choose by randomized bracket as last time (bracket will be created by thunderchero again if there's no complain :)),
time is one week for first three matches but with option to extend up to another week for 3rd round, one and a half weeks for semi final and up to two additional weeks for final. For extension, a defined time when both players will play must be made.
If a player has to forfeit, an already beatened player of same bracket can take his place and get another week for the fight if necessary. If still in plain tournament, you've the choise to advance back in main tournament bracket.

First game that loads has to be played, no restart allowed to simplify tournament.

The following got cancelled cause it would have been applied to one round only and for one single early round it just seem's to be unnecessarily complicating things:

normally the first map that loads up has to be played
But games with obviously very unfair conditions, except the first match (which is only meant as a fast knockout for adjusting the number of tournament participants), have to be restarted if the one with worse start condition is wanting so, no matter which turn.

Circumstances for this are:
-population difference of more than 120 on fully terraformed 2nd systems

To avoid restarting games on late turns, people have to tell each other how big their systems are on first turn (except first match of course).
This might be done either by telling the exact max population of the systems after terraforming or by using the following category: -- for [0-140), - for [140-200), o for [200-260), + for [260-320), ++ for [320-~)
[ is including the value, ) is excluding the value
if people are only one category apart, they normally can't difference by more than 120ppl


People can either tell me that they've lost (or gave up whyever), or send me the save of the turn when they've won and I'll assume it's true as long I don't hear any contrary.
-----------------------------

So, this is a discussion thread and I want to hear your opinion!
If you think there's something wrong, something to improve, or you're currently short in time (like me :lol:) and would like to tell when you think tournament should take place, post it! :D
Last edited by Flocke on Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:19 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Post by The_Nighthawk » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:12 pm

As much as I love BoP, I would suggest that the tournament use either the new 1.03 or BoP 1.1 exclusively, rather then using both in the same tournament. BoP changes the game mechanic drastically enough, it would be difficult to switch gears mid-tourney. Put another way, people should continue to advance under their merits playing the game version they played to make it to the finals.
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Post by Flocke » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:51 pm

Well, I don't want to scare people by making it a bop only tournament.
Instead I thought to make all the matches till semi final vanilla (1.0.3).
So it could only hurt about 4 people switching to bop.

Installers will be made available before tournament begins and as far I've heard from thunderchero, the new installers will allow to install more than one game / mod version so it should be no problem.
Additionally, vanilla being well known for most people, they have enough time to test bop before it comes to be played in tournament (in case they make it to the semi final).

The "merits" changes every map you load and races you play anyway. To win a botf tournament it's meant to be flexible and adapt to the match conditions you get with your map. If you're only good on vanilla, you'll fail in this tournament. I don't think this would be a bad result cause mods already are a big pillar of botf and if you're not able to adapt to them in time, you're probably not worth the champion title. :P

So, both points taken and shred to the trash. :twisted:

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Post by The_Nighthawk » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:18 pm

Fair enough. :) I didn't play much better than that in the tournament either! ;)
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Post by RSE_Dissy » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:13 pm

i dislike BoP, but i guess i cud try it... i like UDM3 however and many many play that more than BoP - altho that's abit more unbalanced I think)

i would much prefer a simpler layout and more ease and leeway in terms of settings (depending on players)

i suggest:

1v1 all the way thru, similar tournie bracket

with rules as follows;

use the ye olde method of selecting games on MSN Gaming Zone, one player asks the other: "Would you like to pick settings, or first race?"

The other chooses, and that's how it goes.

There could be parameters of settings (i.e. only t3-5.. to allow for games not to last a week haha!)

..

If my suggestion of setts is bashed away hehe

then my next suggestion would be:

t5 med few minor imposs irreg NO randoms - round 1
t4 med few minor imposs rreg NO randoms - round 2
t3 med few minor imposs irreg NO randoms - round 3
t4 large few minor imposs irreg NO randoms - semi
t3 large few minor imposs irreg NO randoms - final

don't really like the way u shuffle your setts so much in your suggestion flocke, keep it simple:

NO randoms, irreg, imposs, few minor all the way thru, just shuffle the tech/map

my 2 cents worth!

EDIT: Also plz plz plz make it vanilla only! :D
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Post by Flocke » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:32 pm

Well, that's more a kind of feeling as it seems to me.
So for changing I would need to hear more opinions on that!

I myself don't like the idea of free choise of settings cause:
1. you can't prepare your fight as good as with knowing the settings
2. settings would have to be limited to a few choises, to prevent overlong games
3. matches are less compareable to each other
4. some people may only play high tech vanilla games, others only low tech mod games, till finale
5. with allowing too many selections, including mods, the person with race choise may be very bad cause he havn't prepared for it (so you need to be prepared for every setting)

but it's true that defining first choise isn't very fair either. :/
And for having two or even more games each match, time is simply missing.
So if someone has another idea, let's hear it. =)

With shuffling the settings, well, I thought it would be a nice little addition improving balance and fun.
I like having shuffled settings, but if many people dislike it I may change it.

Large maps seems to be no option for the tournament!
Such a game could become very very long, especially with playing low tech and even more with playing bop mod, so, to be a little safer (regarding to last tournament forfeits and expansions) I thought to limit to the shortest.
But I think about making a rule for not allowing intel for the first few turns... - on the other side, this is one main advantage of few for the intel races on low tech as well as on high tech :roll:
And medium map might be accaptable in some conditions.

Anyway, thx for your suggetions!
I need more input =)

Either we can find conditions people like to play or without of more interest, it's not worth to happen soon and may better wait some time.... :mrgreen: (ok, just one day gone yet *g*)

p.s. Oh and give bop another try, Dissy! It has improved alot! :D

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Post by RSE_Dissy » Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:42 pm

mehh na i dont like bop

tbh dont care about settings etc

plz just no bop.

i agree with that other dude(cba scrollin up) and he said make it either a full on BOP tournie, or full on vanilla

thats the way it shud be, dont mix da two thanks very muchos
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Post by RSE_Dissy » Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:43 pm

oh and the final should be a large map

it's the final

it should be epic
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Post by Flocke » Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:29 pm

well, as long as there are no other opinions, I'll just wait. :)

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Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble » Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:37 pm

How about that:

In the early rounds Flocke is pitted against the BoP haters and binds oneself by contract to kill them. :twisted:
And if he's unable to do so, the Semi & Final rules can be changed. :wink:

Flocke..Flocke..Flocke..Flocke...


An alternatively option would be the “Kirk vs Picardâ€
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.

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Post by carcher » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:51 pm

well flocke,I hadn't posted on this thread,before now, coz i will happily go along with whatever you decide ( even though you did beat me in the last tourney :) )but i just saw your little" dig" in the team tourney thread :) so here's my thoughts

I do'nt mind vanilla or BOP or both.
I'd like to see (depending on number of player.s) first one or two rounds played at t5 for speed in getting the games finished ,with small galaxy, normal and many minors

the quarters and semi's t4 med galaxy size, hard, few minors

the final , i agree with Dissy,large galaxy,imposs, maybe with few minors and also maybe t3
waddaya think?
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Post by jonboylondon » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:23 pm

Ok - i do have a few suggestions which i sure will suprise you, me being a man of so few words normally......

:P

I am a bit miffed....... :?

I thought next tourney was gonna be set at T3 Vanilla? :cry: :cry: :cry:

Why are we considering BOP instead of UDM? 8O I dont wish to sound rude but this was a bolt from the blue as prior to it being mentioned recently in the threads, i have never seen it being played in WZ before!!

Have i totally missed something?? Im sure i have as im scratching my head at this one..... :oops:

A lot of people have spent a lot of time helping UDM morph into a trully awsome mod with the intention of making it MP friendly....should we not give it a run out???

Also - in the next tourny lets have a plate tournament!!!!! :P This would help to keep interest fizzing while the big guns duke it out.... :wink:

JBL

PS - also what about a mutual mp non agression pact for 50 turns to add a bit of spice..... :D ??
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Post by carcher » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:12 am

well if the latest UDM version has been balanced for mp games I'll happily go along with that :) ,thunder himself told me the last version ( h?) was'nt so..i dunno not played it enough yet.

As for BOP its a great mod give it a try, you saw me and kimino playing it last night as feds v fergs we had a great scrap :D I also have a promise on with ruthlessferengi for an epic bop game when we can get in wz at the same time.

not sure about a non agression pact

what's a plate tournement ?
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Post by Flocke » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:02 am

Well, I knew there's need for discussion, so I started this thread. I don't want to have such a discussion on signup, so do it now ;)
Nothing is set in stone yet! :P
carcher wrote:I hadn't posted on this thread,before now, coz i will happily go along with whatever you decide
Good to hear, but this thread is meant to collect opinions, doesn't matter if positive or negative so great to hear yours!
carcher wrote:first one or two rounds played at t5 for speed in getting the games finished ,with small galaxy, normal and many minors
That's my thought and changing from easy to normal difficulty is something I've no reservations. Playing t4 isn't much of a difference in game speed on small map, so I would prefer that on 2nd round.
carcher wrote:the quarters and semi's t4 med galaxy size, hard, few minors

the final , i agree with Dissy,large galaxy,imposs, maybe with few minors and also maybe t3
Well, this is a bit more problematic due to t3 and bop, more about later.
jonboylondon wrote:I am a bit miffed....... Confused

I thought next tourney was gonna be set at T3 Vanilla? Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

Why are we considering BOP instead of UDM? Shocked
Miffed? Really? :lol:
Well, I told I would like to have T3 Vanilla included, never told making it T3 Vanilla only... may have been your imagination ;)
Well, when asking in Season 2 discussion thread, noone suggested UDM. That simple. And I've to agree with carcher that UDM is unbalanced in many ways, although I havn't tested recent versions. I'm sure there can be found some balanced settings anyway and if enough people want UDM to be played instead of BoP, I may search for these.
Cause BoP has been proposed and it's meant to be balanced, I gave it a try and found some acceptable settings. Anyway, it has some problems, too. Most importantly are the colonies being much more important and powerful, mainly cause of autoupgrading and no major upgrades of industry on t3/t4. That's a big problem, cause on med/big maps colonizing becomes too powerful, in my opinion, limiting it to small (maximal med) maps in mp.
jonboylondon wrote:also what about a mutual mp non agression pact for 50 turns
I'm not a fan of non agression pacts, but if more people think we need them, I'll think about. :)
carcher wrote:what's a plate tournement ?
Something I would like to know as well... seems to be depending on interpretation.

--------

Back to quater/semi/final, if more people are absolutely against bop, I may consider making it vanilla only, although I really would like to have it included. As already told, bop, although being much better balanced than vanilla, still has some (and even new) problems. It's not perfect, else all would play it, as I believe. ;)
Main disadvantage seems to be the overpowerful colonisation. With many systems on big maps it becomes very map dependant and a match may last nearly endless.
I won't increase to more than medium maps for bop and that only if wished by most people.
Anyway, playing small maps in semi and final would mean less time to wait for all the people that have already been knocked out, and only a few ones will be left by then.
Quater is already set to t3 vanilla, something I won't do for earlier matches cause t3 vanilla can last quite long. If wished, I may increase that one to medium, too, but no big map in a quater match.

Cause currently there have been only two people totally disliking BoP for tournament and both don't seem to have given it a try yet, I'll stay with it till further opinions arrived.

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Post by RSE_Chris » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:55 am

Really not keen on a UDM tournament. It's a great mod for single play, but for multiplayer it's hopeless. I also think the same version should be played throughout the tournament.

I would suggest:

Version: 1.0.3e "vanilla mod" - Having played a mutliplayer game with Dissy using this, I am impressed.

Tech: Any, some tech 3/4 would be nice.

Map: Med to large. If large is used, use on tech 4+

Non aggresion packs: No way! Some races are good early game, eg Roms. Their advantage shouldn't be taken away by having to wait until turn 50 etc.

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