BOTF TOURNY ISSUES AND SOLUTIONS?? FERGS/FEDS/CARDS UPGRADE

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BOTF TOURNY ISSUES AND SOLUTIONS?? FERGS/FEDS/CARDS UPGRADE

Post by jonboylondon » Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:46 pm

Hello chaps, :P

The other day when I was splaying Carcher at T4 in order to practice for the tourny we had some rather interesting results that need publishing and opening for discussion.

I thought as well Id offer a few suggestions to help further balence the mod as well. These were from player in wz such as Carcher, Kingy, Jaruler, Kimino (apologies if i missed anyone and apolgies in some cases for bending your ears for a good few hours in some cases!!!!! :oops:)

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1 - Romulan Destroyer Vs Klingon Destroyer

Twice whilst playing the Roms against Carcher I have engaged him and been astonished by the end results:

Scenario 1 37 Rom Destroyer2 Vs 12 Klingon Destroyer 2 and 18 Scout2

End Result (despite me targeting his Dest2 each time!!) 12 Klingon Destroyer 2 left with no damage to

shields!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scenario 2 30 Rom Destroyer1 Vs 12 Kling Dest2

End Result 12 Kling Destroyer sitting there with one with a slight scratch to the hull (Seriously!! we even

reloaded and tried ordering my destroyers differently but the end result was the same.....!! :cry: ) When Carcher

picked himself off the floor and stopped laughing - and told me the reason why as he was about to concede the next

few turns and his homeworld was in ruins through my intel and i mean in ruins ( I have never seen a homeworld more

stuffed in any sp/mp game!!!!) and that he saw the 30 ships and though end of!!

Taking Jaruler post into account as well the general consensus is that there is some thing wrong here. Carcher and I

loaded 1.03 as well and tested the two ships with significantly more balenced results in the fights we tested.

Is it a range issue for the Rom Destroyer? (ps exp level of ships was not significantly different enough to cause

these effects so please dont post :wink: )

2 - The Ferengi Trade Bug

I wont go on about this other than to explain what happens. The second planets of the Ferengi semmed to often have

about 10-15 trade routes. This is being dealt with and will hopefully be gone next mod.

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Any way to the main point of order for the post!!! 8) 8) 8)

The Feds - The Cardies and The Ferengi

With a tournament mod we had all hoped to balence the races a bit but it this mod it seems that the only good

choices are the Klings and the Roms. With only T3 - T5 in contention I have been conversing with a number of players

on wzone and we have a few suggestions to help reintroduce a lot of peoples favourite races the Ferengi, Federation

and The Cardassians back into MP. All of these can be done i believe with very simple changes to structure already

existing in 1.02/1.03 so no major overhauls would be required. We have also concentrated on how to play each race based

on its strengths as they were in ST TNG and the "feel" Microprose hoped to emulate to TNG fans for each races

gameplay.

All are changes proposed......

The Ferengi Alliance


Frannchise Office - +4 trade routes, +2 Moral Build Cost 500 Energy Req 10

Trade Centres - 75% credit increase energy 10

Fantasy Land - +3 moral empire wide Build cost 500 Energy 10

Tower Of Commerce - Build cost 500 Energy 10 +75% bonus on trade routes +2 Morale

Commerce Authority - Ind build 500 Energy 10 35% Economic Intel Bonus +1 Morale

Light Raider 2 - Increased to Speed 4 Long Range



The United Federation Of Planets


Federation Council - +5 Moral Empire wide Build Cost 500 Energy 50

Subatomic Stimulators - Energy 10 +200 reasearch

Isolenear scanner - +6 scan range

Pheonix Facility - +10% internal security

Trade Centres - 65% credit increase Energy 10

Starfleet Academy - 30 Energy +60% ship experience +1 Morale 500 750 Build cost

No ship changes.........


The Cardassian Union


Listening Post/Covert - (LP) to scan range +5, 25 energy,500 build cost...and Covert to 50 Energy and 750 Build Cost

Theoretical Stimulators - Build Cost 100 Energy 5 +175 Research

Pheonix Facility - energy 10, build cost 100 and +150 intel

Re- education Centre - 500 buildcost Energy 10 +3 Moral

Forced Labour Farms - +120 food -1 morale

Labour Camp(subj) - +75% industry bonus, -2 morale

Central Command - build cost 500 energy 10 +45 ship exp, +3 morale

Obsidian Order - +35% Intel, +3 Morale Empire wide 500 build cost 100 energy

Shipyards - to 10 Energy

Charge collectors - to 200 Energy

Wind Turbines - to 150 Energy

Keldon Class Strike Cruiser (1+2) to speed 2 from 1 no range increase (short)

8)

What say you?

Also can someone advise how to get this done? Would one of the Tekkies be willing to assist?

Thank you again to all for their help and big shout to Carcher ( hopefully u can play ur beloved feds again soon :wink: )
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Post by Flocke » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:50 pm

Its right that tourny mod did try to keep as much vanilla as possible with intention to concentrate on bug fixes and not to create a new BOP-Mod ;)
Balancing hasn't been the intention, but some adjustments have been necessary cause of a major income (ship scrap) being cancelled. Removing most trade routes put ferengi back on a more equal level with other races for at least tech3 in my opinion. And most rounds in current tournament are based on tech3. On above tech3 ferg and fed never have been the best choise.
But with their early dest2, good research and big advantage on membering minors they are still very powerful on tech3, especially on big maps.
I doubt that they need additional improvement for tech3!

As for the trade bug, this bug also occures in 1.0.3 mod! Hopefully one of the modders will find the reason and fix it! =)
Abusing that bug in tournament of course isn't allowed!

As for your fights, klingon dest2 have very good phaser power and phaser damage mainly is related to experience! Experience in fact can make a major difference there!
Additionally, as you told on ewarzone, you single targeted, spreading firepower.
To proove your observation you should upload a savegame.
Nothing got changed on fights, they are still vanilla.
Tactics and experience are key in such a big fight. Ship-AI behaves very dumb and often is missing targets, especially if enemy is having better experience. Additionally, ships often fire their torpedos at some few enemies and just use their phasers for single targeting with most of them missing target.
It's very dependant on luck as well.

All in all, become a modder and create your own mods, I'm not yet convinced on your suggestions. 8)

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Post by kingy » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:08 pm

Flocke wrote:All in all, become a modder and create your own mods, I'm not yet convinced on your suggestions. 8)

Aye Sir Flocke

ive taken on the work, as ive all ways what to do a mod, but never had the idea's of what to change, so iam happy to get my head down and start doing it,

any way what the worse that can happen

kingy

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Re: BOTF TOURNY ISSUES AND SOLUTIONS?? FERGS/FEDS/CARDS UPGR

Post by wisefaiz » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:28 pm

jonboylondon wrote:
Federation Council - +5 Moral Empire wide Build Cost 500 Energy 50
I really like the sound of that. Ending a game with the federation, i.e. having to take multiple systems off your opponent, gets quite tough I find because moral just hits rock bottom.
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Re: BOTF TOURNY ISSUES AND SOLUTIONS?? FERGS/FEDS/CARDS UPGR

Post by stardust » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:56 pm

wisefaiz wrote:

I really like the sound of that. Ending a game with the federation, i.e. having to take multiple systems off your opponent, gets quite tough I find because moral just hits rock bottom.
Whenever I play with mods I remove the Federation penalties for subjugation/bombing (come on, the silence was deafening when they took Chintoka in DS9) but i impose a huge penalty for starting a war as the federation to stop myself from abusing the changes.
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Re: BOTF TOURNY ISSUES AND SOLUTIONS?? FERGS/FEDS/CARDS UPGR

Post by RSE_Chris » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:04 pm

Hm, bug fixes are fine, but all those other changes are mad, especially if you mean for them to be played as a vanilla mod.

To be honest, I think the only thing that needs to be balanced is the Klingon K'vort. It should have slightly reduced phaser power, and it should be harder to research the K'vort 2 (extra tech to weapons?); it should not take them a similar amoount of time to reach K'vort 2 as it does the Roms to reach the BC2.

Klingons are too easy to win with because of this 1 ship, a fix for this would balance the whole game. The K'vort should be better armed than it's competitor, but not to the extent it is now.
jonboylondon wrote:
The Cardassian Union

Labour Camp(subj) - +75% industry bonus, -2 morale
That would be crazy, Cards already have the best production, another 75% will make them overpowered.

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Post by stardust » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:34 pm

I really am beginning to think the next tourney should be Balance of Power.
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Re: BOTF TOURNY ISSUES AND SOLUTIONS?? FERGS/FEDS/CARDS UPGR

Post by jonboylondon » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:22 pm

RSE_Chris wrote:Hm, bug fixes are fine, but all those other changes are mad, especially if you mean for them to be played as a vanilla mod.
jonboylondon wrote:
So play the feds in the torny then ....... :wink:

We knew the reaction we would have at first. Each change has a reason and purpose behind it so lets have a try before we start calling things "Mad"!! :wink:

The Cardassian Union

Labour Camp(subj) - +75% industry bonus, -2 morale
That would be crazy, Cards already have the best production, another 75% will make them overpowered.
This is only for subjugated systems and is meant to off-set morale production hangover - will mainly help those early tech conquered minors planets.....

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Post by RSE_Chris » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:34 am

It is mad to use as a fix to vanilla, these changes look like they will make the game easy, especially all the morale boost buildings. If you want to boost morale, there are many things you can do, just play your race how they are meant to be played.

As for playing Feds, they are playable. Yes, probably not my weapon of choice, but Feds can hold their own against Cards, Fergs, and Roms, and also Klings if the K'vort change I suggested was implemented.

Don't get me wrong, it might make an interesting mod.

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Post by jaruler » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:04 pm

On JBL post.

I would like to say that there is a serious flaw with kling ships. they cant be hit!!

when i played with kingy. we had lots of battles and i mean lots. played fireing on whole group as well as single and could not ever make a kill.

even when they decloaked 1st to kill my bait i could not kill a single HC with 12 dest all targeting it. pure wrong.

i had taken out the 8 and 8 tt scouts with 5 battle crusers and 8 dest and 4 scouts. and no problem with a small loss to some scouts and 1 battle cruiser. even then.

played against kingy on test games with 2 kling scouts and 2 rom dest. kling wins all time and no loss.

problem i feel that needs to be looked at is the rom dest are usless now against kling in any capacity. if you have also kling hc you win the game as its the same thing with them. nothing takes them out unless you have 10 dest on one of them and it dont move.

the exp started out being the same from start as you might expect and it happend all through game. i am sure it will have slight effect but thats not whet we are seeing here i dont think.

klings fire way to early all lasers and then all ships on my side die before they get a shot off. now this happened everytime and no matter what ranges as they where all different in each fight. i even had misxture of ships scouts., dest, warbirds and battle cruisers and same happened to all of them against the klings.

I know it sounds very odd and strange and one man losing a game can say things like this but ask kingy who played the klings..

with regards to balancing game for other races to be used it would be great. i had a game with JBL with feds and his cards. my dest 2 wiped is 20 dest of the map and then i was able to take systems. but only after building up slowly and defending intel attacks by making one system build intel since start.

i think if we can just bring rom intel down a bit and king firepower and introduce some trade routs to home worlds only than it can be more balanced and possibly with some off JBL suggestions but its needs testing on each race and on each tech.

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Post by stardust » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:46 pm

If i remember right, the Klingon HC II and the Federation Defiant have stupidly high defense stats (the higher this value the higher the ratio is tipped towards shots not hitting the ship)
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Post by kingy » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:54 pm

stardust wrote:If i remember right, the Klingon HC II and the Federation Defiant have stupidly high defense stats (the higher this value the higher the ratio is tipped towards shots not hitting the ship)
nice, klingons are on the norm higher, so hc2 dont look out of place with the rest of the klingon ships, but the defiant with 145, when the best other is 110 and that the HD2 it looks out of place,

but iam 100% sure jbl has started to play about with by now :)

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Post by jonboylondon » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:09 pm

kingy wrote:
stardust wrote:If i remember right, the Klingon HC II and the Federation Defiant have stupidly high defense stats (the higher this value the higher the ratio is tipped towards shots not hitting the ship)
nice, klingons are on the norm higher, so hc2 dont look out of place with the rest of the klingon ships, but the defiant with 145, when the best other is 110 and that the HD2 it looks out of place,

but iam 100% sure jbl has started to play about with by now :)

Klingy
Actually while the defiant has the highest defense i suspect the reason for its god-like ship abilities are not just the defense but the agility. Couple this with the defense and hence the uber-esque qualities of the "tough little ship".......

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Post by Spocks-cuddly-tribble » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:04 pm

jonboylondon wrote:Obsidian Order - +35% Intel, +3 Morale Empire wide
This is not possible - cause Morale Empire wide is a MAIN output type for special buildings.

Flocke wrote:As for the trade bug, this bug also occures in 1.0.3 mod! Hopefully one of the modders will find the reason and fix it! =)
I wasn't able to duplicate this bug - tested Multi_BOTF_1.0.3 english & german - rar files dated 2008-12-07.
I don't know how many bugs is too many but that point is reached somewhere before however many in BotF is.

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Post by Flocke » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:12 pm

Spocks-cuddly-tribble wrote:
Flocke wrote:As for the trade bug, this bug also occures in 1.0.3 mod! Hopefully one of the modders will find the reason and fix it! =)
I wasn't able to duplicate this bug - tested Multi_BOTF_1.0.3 english & german - rar files dated 2008-12-07.
That's the problem, but it got reported first by CptFisH, then by Kingy/jbl and uploaded files have been checked by md5 checksum. Have uploaded the 1.0.3 save I got from CptFisH with that bug to http://www.file-upload.net/download-142 ... g.sav.html. Would be cool if you can figure the reason and fix it.

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